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Worst Practices - Depending on the GUI Expand / Collapse
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Posted Friday, November 2, 2001 12:00 AM


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Comments posted to this topic are about the content posted at http://www.sqlservercentral.com/columnists/sjones/wp_gui.asp






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Post #1494
Posted Monday, December 3, 2001 5:39 AM
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The problem with this article is that it's not completly true.
I work in almost the same environment as the one in the article: a development server (20 metters away from my desk) a testing server (in the same building but very far) and a production server (2000 km or more away from me).
Do I use the GUI?
Yes. I use the GUI on the development server it's a pain in the ass to use scripting when you are not 100% sure that you are doing exactly the right thing.
Do I use the GUI for the other servers?
NO. What I am doing is initialy rely almost completly on the GUI and after that I am generating the scripts needed (from the GUI) adapt them a little bit and launch them on the other servers.
This way I am not writing tones of code that I will use only 3 times in my life but I can handle all the problems in the article while having the generated script saved in VSS (for example).




Post #23293
Posted Monday, December 3, 2001 5:58 AM
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Steve, not sure Im totally convinced either. Wouldn't combining EM with a compare tool like the one Red-Gate makes give you the best of both worlds?

I see a lot of people totally skip EM in favor of a command line, when EM would be clearly faster - take attaching a db as an example, faster to browse and pick the file than to get the whole path correct...usually anyway!

Interesting article still!


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Post #23294
Posted Monday, December 3, 2001 8:32 AM
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I thoroughly agree with this as a worst practice. I am always advising people to use the EM as you suggest, make your changes and save the script. Scripting allows me more control over changes.

Also, the GUI sometimes does drastic things to make simple changes. I have had the GUI completely drop and readd a table when I did not think it was necessary. This causes all dependencies to go away and makes the sp_depends system procedure useless when I try to use it later.



Edited by - Jrein on 12/03/2001 08:33:04 AM



Post #23295
Posted Monday, December 3, 2001 10:05 AM


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I will admit that the GUI is easier to use, but that is often the problem. People mistake ease for right or the best way.

If you use the scripts from the GUI, thenI hope you check them before you run them again. In this way you are not "depending" on the GUI, you are using it to your advantage. If you use scripts, you must also determine the proper order in which to run them. You don't want to implement a FK before creating the table, so you are not depending on the GUI in this way either.

The point was that so many people use the GUI for all changes, to development and production. This is where they get into trouble. How many times do people post in these forums somehow assuming the EM does some "magic" when it alters a table instead of reading the script and finding out that it really drops the table and recreates it.

I do use the GUI, but as edo_2000 uses it, usually when I don't remember the exat syntax. However, for tables and other objects, I want the documentation and so I script them and their changes. In this way, I can add my comments, or change them if I am not sure. I think that by scripting you are more likely to stop and think rather than just doing something.

As far as RedGate's tool, I have to apologize to Simon and the crew at RedGate, I haven't tested it yet. However, rather than a GUI based tool like EM where I am not sure what I want, I'd rather have some more intellisense in QA where I can type "attach database from file" and have it start prefilling the path based on what I type, like the address bars in W2K or IE. I really dislike depending on these tools if I am not 100% sure what it is doing in the background. Too often the author had a different philosophy than I.

Thanks for the comments and keep them coming!

Steve Jones
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Post #23296
Posted Monday, December 3, 2001 4:21 PM
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Cant believe you ain't tried it! I'm curious to hear your thoughts once you do. Intellisense in QA would definitely be a productivy enhancer. Both tools are useful, I believe that the trick is choosing the right tool for the right task for the right reason. To just use one or the other exclusively limits your options and your productivity.




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Post #23297
Posted Monday, December 3, 2001 5:01 PM
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Thanks for the thought provoking article, I agree entirely with Andy; and Steve - you really should check out SQL Compare, it's a great product.

I think that a text based environment is fine for change control and production databases, but development has to be done in GUI.

As for GUI environments I use Access 2002 ADP's extensively - although it has a great many limitations, I believe it is far better than EM for working with large databases in a development environment.
I ALWAYS look at code through a GUI envrionment. I think you have to be a SQL guru to understand the complex relationships in a large query in a text only mode. Looking at it in a GUI environment is much easier to understand.






Post #23298
Posted Monday, December 3, 2001 5:53 PM


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I'll give it a try, but I'm not sure a GUI is necessary. As a design tool, I'd agree, but for making changes, I think I'll stick with my scripts.

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Post #23299
Posted Tuesday, December 4, 2001 7:47 AM


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Agree with Steve completely. I have been functioning as a full time DBA (part time doing other tasks prior to this) for less than a year and I believe that because I purposed myself to stick with scripting rather than the "Good Ol' GUI" I am much farther along today in my knowledge and support skills with SQL Server than I would have been if I had stuck with GUI support and development.

Thanks Steve!

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Post #23300
Posted Tuesday, December 4, 2001 8:28 AM


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I am an extensive user of the GUI. If it can be done with the GUI then thats how I do it for the time savings are great. But to be fair, I also use Embarcadero Change Manager and DB Artisan. 2 tools I would not like to do without. Without these tools I would agree that the GUI is not the "Best Practice". Another thing we have done is locked developers out of the developement server as well as production. Since we did that mysterious things like droped tables and restores stopped happening. Now everything filters through me, I assure it is correct with our standards and life is great. I'm down to only 2 asprin a day, and my cursing has dropped below the 'sailor' level!





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