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Better Bosses Needed Expand / Collapse
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Posted Monday, July 30, 2012 8:50 AM


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SGT_squeequal (7/30/2012)
Having managed teams of variouse types for over 10 years I feel that to be a manager you but need to follow a few simple rules.

Never expect anyone do do something that you would never be prepared to do yourself

and

Lead by example


Set a good example in the workforce and get a good result, set a bad example and you get a shit and unhappy workforce. I have seen too many bad managers who follow the rule; do as i say not as i do.

remember 1 person can not let a team down however, a team can let one person down :)

A happy worker is a good worker an unhappy worker will just leave :)


Well said. Unfortunately I find lots of unhappy workers that stay and just don't work. Well or much.







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Post #1337292
Posted Monday, July 30, 2012 8:51 AM


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davoscollective (7/29/2012)
MBA programs have received a lot of criticism http://harvardmagazine.com/harvard-in-the-news/call-to-reform-m-b-a-degrees in recent years given that the GFC was essentially an MBA led recession.
...
I'm encouraged by the universities assuming responsibility for the type of managers they are churning out, but also dismayed by some of the students I've collaborated with who are clearly in it for the money. Hopefully increased accountability will make a difference.


Thanks, I'll check out the article. And I agree.







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Post #1337294
Posted Monday, July 30, 2012 8:52 AM


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SQLPhil (7/30/2012)
Those that survive, or perhaps thrive, get promoted.

An interesting observation there Steve. Unfortunately I've seen too many examples where bad managers are promoted to get them out of the position they're in. Those that are good at their jobs are held there and not given the opportunity to move on to bigger and better things. Of course, this is usually because of the bad boss at the helm, a culture that has developed over time, or the fact that it is too much hassle to sack someone.


Why is that? I've been trying to tackle this issue, but haven't come up with a good way. Why can't we let people go for being bad managers? Or bad workers? It's odd, to me.







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Post #1337296
Posted Monday, July 30, 2012 9:09 AM
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Steve Jones - SSC Editor (7/30/2012)
SQLPhil (7/30/2012)
Those that survive, or perhaps thrive, get promoted.

An interesting observation there Steve. Unfortunately I've seen too many examples where bad managers are promoted to get them out of the position they're in. Those that are good at their jobs are held there and not given the opportunity to move on to bigger and better things. Of course, this is usually because of the bad boss at the helm, a culture that has developed over time, or the fact that it is too much hassle to sack someone.


Why is that? I've been trying to tackle this issue, but haven't come up with a good way. Why can't we let people go for being bad managers? Or bad workers? It's odd, to me.

In the US? (removing comments that probably do not further the discussion) We have moved towards a society where nobody is responsible for their own actions. We reward everyone the same no matter how hard they work. Everyone gets a trophy. We blame the rich, our managers, our workers - we don't accept blame for our own failures.




Dave
Post #1337318
Posted Monday, July 30, 2012 9:34 AM


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Steve Jones - SSC Editor (7/30/2012)
SQLPhil (7/30/2012)
Those that survive, or perhaps thrive, get promoted.

An interesting observation there Steve. Unfortunately I've seen too many examples where bad managers are promoted to get them out of the position they're in. Those that are good at their jobs are held there and not given the opportunity to move on to bigger and better things. Of course, this is usually because of the bad boss at the helm, a culture that has developed over time, or the fact that it is too much hassle to sack someone.


Why is that? I've been trying to tackle this issue, but haven't come up with a good way. Why can't we let people go for being bad managers? Or bad workers? It's odd, to me.

While Djackson certainly has a different viewpoint on the matter, in lot of cases I saw it came down to some form of loyalty. People getting promoted into positions they cannot handle. Anything from good techs turned into poor team leads, to folks making to large of ajump and into areas they juts can't deal with. These USED to be folks that were useful, or provided value in the past: trying to pull them out might make them quit, and some of the folks who actually care feel stuck with this poorp mgr on their hands - so you find a way to isolate them. Easiest way is often to give them a loftier title and fewer folks to deal with.

Not the best move for the organization, but less painful than the "other conversation".


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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
Post #1337340
Posted Monday, July 30, 2012 9:39 AM
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Steve said in the article - "If you can't train great managers, can you at least train them to not be bad ones? "

And for the first time in quite a long time I have to disagree. There are some that no matter what training, retraining, experience, or other effort will never be good managers. Some would take a complete personality transplant and others would require a sovereign move of God himself to make it happen.

Some clearly are not now, have never been, and will never be good management material. Some are born to follow!

M.


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Post #1337343
Posted Monday, July 30, 2012 9:40 AM
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Greetings,

Needless to say, I have had my share of bad bosses - several of them. With all bosses I always tried to carry out the mantra taught to me by my dad. To work hard for the company you are at and to never give up no matter how hard it is. To work at a company with full loyalty.

In the past, that was definitely true. Those that worked hard and didn't leave would eventually receive the benefits for their loyalty. Now it seems a lot of employees jump ship when something that looks better floats by. That makes a manager's job a bit tougher when an employee can up and leave at any time. Anyhow, for the bad bosses I had, maybe they needed those types of employees. Maybe then they would realize that their behavior and treatment was causing more harm than good. I still try to give all I can to my current boss but I can also say the bad bosses will change a person's attitude for their work ethic and business relationship.

I could regale the stories of "Just how bad was your boss?" for you, but is that what this thread is really about? A bad boss can wreck a good employee.

Thank you for your time.

Terry Steadman

Post #1337345
Posted Monday, July 30, 2012 9:48 AM
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I don't know enough about the laws work to comment, so I can only go from personal experience. I have seen, and experienced being shuffled around, given the worst assignments and generally had huge hints dropped about not being welcomed. Some things seem so blatant, that I can't believe people aren't escorted from the building immediately. EX: The manager who had employees in his office, playing poker, for money. A new director came in soon after that event and whenever there was a situation in the manager's area, the director shadowed him, watching his every move and working directly with him. He got the idea and left.

That same director gave me good reviews on my work, but constantly gave me trouble about my attitude. This included my lack of enthusiam for the "corporate culture" and my complaints about people sitting on the phone, listening to the radio etc. I also left, and since then the company has reduced a lot of staff and actually cut back on its volume of business. It is a subsidiary, so I can't explain why the parent company made that decision, but I can see that they had a plan to save money by getting people to quit rather than "let them go."

I don't know how the law works, but my guess is, if you say to someone, "we don't like you and/or our income is reducing, we want you to quit", they have the right to leave and collect unemployment insurance.
Post #1337354
Posted Monday, July 30, 2012 10:19 AM


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Miles Neale (7/30/2012)
Steve said in the article - "If you can't train great managers, can you at least train them to not be bad ones? "

And for the first time in quite a long time I have to disagree. There are some that no matter what training, retraining, experience, or other effort will never be good managers. Some would take a complete personality transplant and others would require a sovereign move of God himself to make it happen.

Some clearly are not now, have never been, and will never be good management material. Some are born to follow!

M.


Perhaps, but are those edge cases, or do you think a significant proportion of people can be trained to not be bad managers? I think there are definitely some ill suited, but I think a manager that just was taught to leave you alone unless there were problems is something most people could learn.

I don't want to dwell on edge cases since that's in the 20% of problems. I'm looking for an 80% solution, which is what I think training to get people to not be bad managers is.







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Post #1337382
Posted Monday, July 30, 2012 10:21 AM


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djackson 22568 (7/30/2012)

In the US? Because trial lawyers own democrats, unions own democrats, and both groups enjoy the power they have as a result of pretending to protect workers. Someone fired you, let's sue them. Is your job too difficult because you have to work for 5 minutes out of every hour, let's threaten the company you work for, and every other company, until they cave. Don't like that you have to work for a living? Vote for me and I will tax those evil rich people, the ones that pay 80% of taxes anyhow, because it isn't fair that you aren't given everything for free so you can lay around the house watching daytime television and smoking crack, drinking your favorite drink, or whatever it is you do with meth.

Why don't companies want to fire people? Because doing so invites the wrath of so many stupid groups of people that it is actually cheaper to just ignore the poor workers and hope they leave on their own.


Except that I do see people fired, rarely, for the same reasons and situations that others are not fired for. And the same threats, which quite often are not followed through upon. So I think you have some valid points, but they're overblown, and the more people just accept them, the more they become urban legend, not reality.







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