How Far are You Willing To Go To Get Something?

  • Hi Jeff,

    I do agree it doesn't really make sense to use a new tool just because it exists.  Also, I do tend to lean toward if it can be done in t-sql then do it there.  Still I am open if new tools, such as powershell, if they have a better way of doing things.  I am familiar with some of the old things so it does give me a basis to judge if this new tool is the right one to use or not.  That is a pretty funny comment about what is DOS?  I have gotten that before as well.  It seems like some people are a little more familiar with command prompt, but not always.

    I guess because I do have a programming background as well, I don't mind the loops as much.  Still I would always prefer a set based solution in t-sql if at all possible.

    Anyway, you have certainly given some food for thought.  Perhaps some new articles will come out of this discussion.  The need to learn some of the old "ways" of doing things.  Since sometimes the old "ways" are better.

    Ben

  • Jeff!!! You bloody Luddite!!!!! 😛 <walking away>

  • I like to say "Just because you can do that in SSIS doesn't mean you should."  I don't know how many data flow's I've looked at where I end up saying, "I could've done all of this in SQL."  One example read in 3 tables, all on same server, did about 13 look up's, 3 splits of the data, 4 merges, 4 calls to VBscript before ending up in one SQL table.  I was able to do the exact thing in about 600 lines of SQL(I'm sure i could reduce that if I wanted to).  I did all of that just to prove it could be done.  To me that SQL is a lot easier to understand and it's easier to maintain than that ugly data flow.

    I'm not one to jump on the newest of latest and greatest of anything.  I'm not going to stand in a line for some new phone or TV or other gadget or toy.  I'm not going to stand in line just to be one of the first to see a movie.  I guess I've always been that way, not just something I realized as I got older.

    I'm also not going to go out and try and learn some new software or language if i'm not going to be using it. I'm one of those I need to be doing it to retain it.  Now I haven't used COBOL in over 15 years, but I think I could still do it, just maybe not very well.  The only reason I think that is because I coded in it for over 10 years.  Now I learned some Java Script back in earl 2000's, but I haven't used it since that one project.  So I doubt I could do much with that.

    -------------------------------------------------------------
    we travel not to escape life but for life not to escape us
    Don't fear failure, fear regret.

  • bkubicek - Thursday, November 2, 2017 8:47 AM

    Hi Jeff,

    I do agree it doesn't really make sense to use a new tool just because it exists.  Also, I do tend to lean toward if it can be done in t-sql then do it there.  Still I am open if new tools, such as powershell, if they have a better way of doing things.  I am familiar with some of the old things so it does give me a basis to judge if this new tool is the right one to use or not.  That is a pretty funny comment about what is DOS?  I have gotten that before as well.  It seems like some people are a little more familiar with command prompt, but not always.

    I guess because I do have a programming background as well, I don't mind the loops as much.  Still I would always prefer a set based solution in t-sql if at all possible.

    Anyway, you have certainly given some food for thought.  Perhaps some new articles will come out of this discussion.  The need to learn some of the old "ways" of doing things.  Since sometimes the old "ways" are better.

    Ben

    Thanks for the feedback, Ben.  Heh... oddly enough, I used to be an application programmer, as well, but that's why I hate loops so much. 😉

    --Jeff Moden


    RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
    First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
    ________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.
    "Change is inevitable... change for the better is not".
    "Dear Lord... I'm a DBA so please give me patience because, if you give me strength, I'm going to need bail money too!"

    Helpful Links:
    How to post code problems
    How to Post Performance Problems
    Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

  • qbrt - Thursday, November 2, 2017 8:55 AM

    Jeff!!! You bloody Luddite!!!!! 😛 <walking away>

    BWAAA-HAAAA!!!! Now THAT'S FUNNY!

    --Jeff Moden


    RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
    First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
    ________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.
    "Change is inevitable... change for the better is not".
    "Dear Lord... I'm a DBA so please give me patience because, if you give me strength, I'm going to need bail money too!"

    Helpful Links:
    How to post code problems
    How to Post Performance Problems
    Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

  • Jeff Moden - Thursday, November 2, 2017 5:43 PM

    qbrt - Thursday, November 2, 2017 8:55 AM

    Jeff!!! You bloody Luddite!!!!! 😛 <walking away>

    BWAAA-HAAAA!!!! Now THAT'S FUNNY!

    We're all Luddites... Going back to SQL Server 7 and the Database Tuning Adviser, each new version has promised to be so cutting edge that it will no longer require a full time database administrator. :crying:

  • Jason A. Long - Thursday, November 2, 2017 6:24 PM

    Jeff Moden - Thursday, November 2, 2017 5:43 PM

    qbrt - Thursday, November 2, 2017 8:55 AM

    Jeff!!! You bloody Luddite!!!!! 😛 <walking away>

    BWAAA-HAAAA!!!! Now THAT'S FUNNY!

    We're all Luddites... Going back to SQL Server 7 and the Database Tuning Adviser, each new version has promised to be so cutting edge that it will no longer require a full time database administrator. :crying:

    There will always be the need for Database Administrators because the more cutting edge something is, the more people bleed.  😉  Someone has to be able to stop the bleeding. :Whistling:

    --Jeff Moden


    RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
    First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
    ________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.
    "Change is inevitable... change for the better is not".
    "Dear Lord... I'm a DBA so please give me patience because, if you give me strength, I'm going to need bail money too!"

    Helpful Links:
    How to post code problems
    How to Post Performance Problems
    Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

  • Jeff Moden - Thursday, November 2, 2017 6:28 PM

    Jason A. Long - Thursday, November 2, 2017 6:24 PM

    Jeff Moden - Thursday, November 2, 2017 5:43 PM

    qbrt - Thursday, November 2, 2017 8:55 AM

    Jeff!!! You bloody Luddite!!!!! 😛 <walking away>

    BWAAA-HAAAA!!!! Now THAT'S FUNNY!

    We're all Luddites... Going back to SQL Server 7 and the Database Tuning Adviser, each new version has promised to be so cutting edge that it will no longer require a full time database administrator. :crying:

    There will always be the need for Database Administrators because the more cutting edge something is, the more people bleed.  😉  Someone has to be able to stop the bleeding. :Whistling:

    That's what ca glue & duct tape is for. 😉

  • This is a great conversation. I suspected from the time I was a student in college, and later learned, that the tools available in software were not being fully learned by mainstream users. Take Excel, my first managers with MBAs did not know the full potential with Macros and built in statistical functions that can handle confidence intervals and PV calculations. When a lowly intern like me showed them how easy certain things could be accomplished with some fundamentals, it scared them because it was "not what they were used to" seeing. They were used to struggling and pulling hair to match numbers at months end. What they had done before I arrived is hire a consultant and I ended up finding a major hole or  two in the consultant's deliverable. 
    The point is here is that the company already had the tools, they just needed to spend some time tinkering, reading about and ultimately learning some cool things they could do with it.
    I agree that the depth of  power that t-sql posses is immense, and I am a fan of being a true master ... rather than just learning to memorize what options to hit in some third part application GUI. 
    Though I should also say, in the places I have worked with that SSIS has come with the installation of SQL Server. I think this would be common. I like the idea of SSIS because it is more visual , makes logging easy, and incorporates checkpoints. So that when a failure occurs after you just brought over 10 million rows, you dont have to delete and re-import them when you restart the process. It has become a standard to develop ETLs , even if the data movements are on the same box  a t- sql task can do the trick here. It is just an option  (no need for the data flow tasks in this case) so that there is a consistency with ETL development. I imagine a lot of times these data pulls ultimately end in the sending of a file to a FTP location. No need to build the logic across Sql Server and another windows program. It all lies in one spot. Beyond that I dont think I need much. Though I still like to see what is available. 
    Thanks 🙂

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  • I notice this is an old article, but I would have to say that for me now, the answer is a huge 'depends'.  As in, depends on the return.  As I have aged, I find that  more and more, as energy and enthusiasm wane,  I have become much more selective on how much effort I am willing to put into speculative endeavors.  On the other hand, I do admit that I have much more freedom of choice because that choice is now my own instead of needing to consider the needs of an employer and co-workers.

    Rick

    The only thing worse than being an influencer
    is believing one.

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