Decouple the Tools

  • Comments posted to this topic are about the item Decouple the Tools

  • I'd guess that there are a lot of small and big shops out there, which uses bcp and sqlcmd regulary (e.g. bcp for simple import / export tasks where SSIS is just to big and clumsy and sqlcmd.exe for the default jobs created by Ola's maintenance solution) as server tools. Having them to be installed separate would slightly increase the security (when they are NOT installed) but could cause trouble too (when forgotten to install) and decrease security (when you miss a critical security hotfix for them, while you always install the latest CUs for the SQL Server main installation).

    Of course it would be nice to have "regular" import/export routines, which does not need to use external tools or legacy stuff as the Ole Automations.

    God is real, unless declared integer.

  • I think bcp could do with enhancements.  As a high speed import/export tool it has served me well.  The ability to handle parquet/Orc files would be fantastic.  Far more cross platform data exchange takes place these days as the love affair with data lakes continues

  • From a strictly product point of view I can understand and even agree with the decoupling. However, for those of us who have to maintain SQL Server instances that cannot connect to the Internet, this is becoming a major pain. I would like Microsoft to be more aware of those of us that don't have access to the Internet and consider an alternate delivery mechanism.

  • Cary Hower-563110 - Monday, March 5, 2018 5:34 AM

    From a strictly product point of view I can understand and even agree with the decoupling. However, for those of us who have to maintain SQL Server instances that cannot connect to the Internet, this is becoming a major pain. I would like Microsoft to be more aware of those of us that don't have access to the Internet and consider an alternate delivery mechanism.

    They should have offline, easier to install mechanisms, I agree.

  • Steve Jones - SSC Editor - Monday, March 5, 2018 6:45 AM

    Cary Hower-563110 - Monday, March 5, 2018 5:34 AM

    From a strictly product point of view I can understand and even agree with the decoupling. However, for those of us who have to maintain SQL Server instances that cannot connect to the Internet, this is becoming a major pain. I would like Microsoft to be more aware of those of us that don't have access to the Internet and consider an alternate delivery mechanism.

    They should have offline, easier to install mechanisms, I agree.

    Curious about what sort of approach folks are thinking of here. Cory mentioned being 'offline' and my suspicion, being the too-literal thinker I tend to be :), is that this would not mean DVDs but rather a controlled download from a secure location. I was thinking that some sort of 'widget' could monitor versions and provide suggestions or something similar. 

    In other words, what practical approaches would work?

  • FWIW, I haven't been able to run Books Online in quite a while. Guess I'm one of those whose still having problems getting that to work.

    Kindest Regards, Rod Connect with me on LinkedIn.

  • David.Poole - Monday, March 5, 2018 1:31 AM

    I think bcp could do with enhancements.  As a high speed import/export tool it has served me well.  The ability to handle parquet/Orc files would be fantastic.  Far more cross platform data exchange takes place these days as the love affair with data lakes continues

    The major reason bcp is high-speed is because it is focused on a specific pipeline between a specific set of potential input/output formats.
    SSIS is what you want for more formats or a customized pipeline. In my experience, a well-designed SSIS package can be as efficient as bcp in terms of raw performance, while providing more complete error and performance logging.
    Having said that, what I'd really like is a BCP native-format file source/destination for SSIS.

  • Sometimes they've decoupled too much.  For example, I recently had to rename an Analysis Services instance for SQL Server 2016.  It's actually a fairly easy thing to do, but unfortunately the tool to do that is bundled with Management Studio, which wasn't installed on the server, so I had to install that client side program first to get the server side tool :hehe:
    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sql/analysis-services/instances/rename-an-analysis-services-instance

  • Chris Harshman - Monday, March 5, 2018 10:51 AM

    Sometimes they've decoupled too much.  For example, I recently had to rename an Analysis Services instance for SQL Server 2016.  It's actually a fairly easy thing to do, but unfortunately the tool to do that is bundled with Management Studio, which wasn't installed on the server, so I had to install that client side program first to get the server side tool :hehe:
    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sql/analysis-services/instances/rename-an-analysis-services-instance

    Why install the client tool on the server? Can no clients connect to the server? Or does this change only local instances? Either way, decoupling still makes sense. Install the client tool if you need it. I'd prefer the client tools be separate as well, so that if you need the SSAS tool, you don't need everything else.

  • ddodge2 - Monday, March 5, 2018 8:54 AM

    Curious about what sort of approach folks are thinking of here. Cory mentioned being 'offline' and my suspicion, being the too-literal thinker I tend to be :), is that this would not mean DVDs but rather a controlled download from a secure location. I was thinking that some sort of 'widget' could monitor versions and provide suggestions or something similar. 

    In other words, what practical approaches would work?

    Standlone, CLI installer. Download something, copy to server, run install. Avoid GUI for server systems and to ensure automation.

  • Steve Jones - SSC Editor - Monday, March 5, 2018 2:47 PM

    ddodge2 - Monday, March 5, 2018 8:54 AM

    Curious about what sort of approach folks are thinking of here. Cory mentioned being 'offline' and my suspicion, being the too-literal thinker I tend to be :), is that this would not mean DVDs but rather a controlled download from a secure location. I was thinking that some sort of 'widget' could monitor versions and provide suggestions or something similar. 

    In other words, what practical approaches would work?

    Standlone, CLI installer. Download something, copy to server, run install. Avoid GUI for server systems and to ensure automation.

    Steve, 

    Thanks for the feedback. One additional question if you wouldn't mind... I have, on one occasion, had to jury-rig an SSIS process due to an absence of Active Directory Services being installed. Any general observations in this area? I know there are several ways around this issue and a LOT depends on security needs. So, just curious to see what you, and maybe some of the others, might think. 

    Thank you,

    Doug

  • I had to install Management Studio on the server, because it has a server tool asinstancerename.exe bundled in it to rename an Analysis Services instance.  When they stripped SSMS from the main SQL Server install set they took that with it, so when I went to look for it, it wasn't on my 2016 server.

  • ddodge2 - Monday, March 5, 2018 3:06 PM

    Steve, 

    Thanks for the feedback. One additional question if you wouldn't mind... I have, on one occasion, had to jury-rig an SSIS process due to an absence of Active Directory Services being installed. Any general observations in this area? I know there are several ways around this issue and a LOT depends on security needs. So, just curious to see what you, and maybe some of the others, might think. 

    Thank you,

    Doug

    Not sure what you mean here. Are you asking something in relation to security with SSIS or about having separate tools?

  • Chris Harshman - Monday, March 5, 2018 3:13 PM

    I had to install Management Studio on the server, because it has a server tool asinstancerename.exe bundled in it to rename an Analysis Services instance.  When they stripped SSMS from the main SQL Server install set they took that with it, so when I went to look for it, it wasn't on my 2016 server.

    I get that, it's a decision where the tool goes, but still, no clients have network connectivity or this tool requires installation on the server? If it's the latter, then that's a poor business decision as we shouldn't require SSMS on a server.

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