January 30, 2020 at 3:50 am
To add to what Grant has stated, I agree that "new" voices are a bonus on any forum but I have seen some "new" people come in with some answers that are just horrible. When you point out why their answer has an issue and a possible better method (even with coded proof that it is), a lot of them just bail out instead of embracing it as a learning opportunity themselves. It's one of the ways I learned (and still learn) a lot. Post something and have someone post something better even if they call me out directly??? I'm all ears if it involves code.
Same here, Jeff. I know I don't know everything or get everything right. That is one of the reasons I became active here nearly 15 years ago. You, yourself, have been a great mentor to me as have many others we call heavy hitters.
It is the new ones that want to learn that we need to come here to learn and then pick up the mantle of mentor as well. You learn so much more when you start to teach others.
January 30, 2020 at 4:18 am
My apologies. I wanted to Quote Jeff's answer, but accidentally hit the REPORT link instead. Are Admins/Mods able to please undo my error
This was the post (copied from my mail)
To add to what Grant has stated, I have seen some "new" people come in with some answers that are just horrible. When you point out why their answer has an issue and a possible better method (even with coded proof that it is), a lot of them just bail out instead of embracing it as a learning opportunity themselves. It's one of the ways I learned a lot. Post something and have someone post something better even if they call me out directly??? I'm all ears if it involves code.
January 30, 2020 at 4:20 am
Jeff Moden wrote:To add to what Grant has stated, I agree that "new" voices are a bonus on any forum but I have seen some "new" people come in with some answers that are just horrible. When you point out why their answer has an issue and a possible better method (even with coded proof that it is), a lot of them just bail out instead of embracing it as a learning opportunity themselves. It's one of the ways I learned (and still learn) a lot. Post something and have someone post something better even if they call me out directly??? I'm all ears if it involves code.
Same here, Jeff. I know I don't know everything or get everything right. That is one of the reasons I became active here nearly 15 years ago. You, yourself, have been a great mentor to me as have many others we call heavy hitters.
It is the new ones that want to learn that we need to come here to learn and then pick up the mantle of mentor as well. You learn so much more when you start to teach others.
Agreed. Having my attempts at answers picked apart has helped me write better (more performant) SQL over the years
January 30, 2020 at 8:50 am
You learn so much more when you start to teach others.
could not agree more - most of my learning came from working as a consultant and seeing how other people got it wrong... I googled, researched and put questions on here that other people can look at.
I also agree that there are quite a few bad answers (most of them are mine 🙂 ) and we should not be afraid to correct them, this is also a form of mentoring... (maybe one or 2 people do it a bit too harshly - jeff, you know who i'm talking about)
I like to live my life by the principal of "pay it forward" - if we help others, maybe, just maybe they will pass their learnings on.
MVDBA
January 30, 2020 at 8:52 am
My apologies. I wanted to Quote Jeff's answer, but accidentally hit the REPORT link instead. Are Admins/Mods able to please undo my error
This was the post (copied from my mail)
To add to what Grant has stated, I have seen some "new" people come in with some answers that are just horrible. When you point out why their answer has an issue and a possible better method (even with coded proof that it is), a lot of them just bail out instead of embracing it as a learning opportunity themselves. It's one of the ways I learned a lot. Post something and have someone post something better even if they call me out directly??? I'm all ears if it involves code.
Yeah, I got it. Thanks.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
January 30, 2020 at 8:56 am
To add to what Grant has stated, I agree that "new" voices are a bonus on any forum but I have seen some "new" people come in with some answers that are just horrible. When you point out why their answer has an issue and a possible better method (even with coded proof that it is), a lot of them just bail out instead of embracing it as a learning opportunity themselves. It's one of the ways I learned (and still learn) a lot. Post something and have someone post something better even if they call me out directly??? I'm all ears if it involves code.
I do think this is all part of the service. I'm pretty sure Gail's full time job back in the day was correcting my posts. I know Paul White had his hands full fixing my stupid. I even responded badly to one of those (still upset with myself on that one). It happens. I think the key is, we approach anyone's answers the same way we approach anyone's questions. We try to help & guide with some kindness & understanding. 99% of the time we nail it pretty good around here. If people can't see that, it's on them. Of course, the 1% where we come off like XExchange... let's not talk about that.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
January 30, 2020 at 9:04 am
Jeff Moden wrote:To add to what Grant has stated, I agree that "new" voices are a bonus on any forum but I have seen some "new" people come in with some answers that are just horrible. When you point out why their answer has an issue and a possible better method (even with coded proof that it is), a lot of them just bail out instead of embracing it as a learning opportunity themselves. It's one of the ways I learned (and still learn) a lot. Post something and have someone post something better even if they call me out directly??? I'm all ears if it involves code.
I do think this is all part of the service. I'm pretty sure Gail's full time job back in the day was correcting my posts. I know Paul White had his hands full fixing my stupid. I even responded badly to one of those (still upset with myself on that one). It happens. I think the key is, we approach anyone's answers the same way we approach anyone's questions. We try to help & guide with some kindness & understanding. 99% of the time we nail it pretty good around here. If people can't see that, it's on them. Of course, the 1% where we come off like XExchange... let's not talk about that.
I do miss Gilamonster - she fixed half of my badly composed posts, I bet she likes profiler 🙂 just joking
MVDBA
January 30, 2020 at 9:17 am
Just a thought,
every post I've replied to in the last few weeks has had updates and new info from pretty much the same bunch of people on here.
Grant, Jeff,KTFlash, Jonathan AC Roberts and a few others.. but the original posters often don't re-engage with the conversation when we open up a dialogue and give them the answer on a plate.
Am I the only one thinking that we need some fresh blood throwing solutions around?
This problem doesn't appear to just be an SSC thing though. You'll find the same problem on other sites as well. Most of the SQL Server related questions are answered by the same users over at Stack Overflow.
I think, fundamentally, the way people use the resources has changed. Those that used the sites before as a Give and Take community and still use the communities, continue to do so, but most of the "new blood" are hear for answers. They might learn from the answer, but they aren't here for discussion (though such things as discussion are off topic some places, which is where you can learn far more than even from the answer).
SSC taught me to not only get the correct answer, but (and I think more importantly) understand the answer and understand it well. I think that's why we're not seeing as many people, they "know" the answer, but they don't know why it's the answer; and on communities like here they would constructive feedback but I think some of them see that as failure. Unfortunately other communities "teach" them they if you provide a "bad" answer that you lose internet points.
I haven't really visited the questions here too much recently (I still need to read Jeff's post on validation an xls file from a couple of weeks ago too, but work has been far too busy to test it properly), but I think quality of questions is a contributor too. It frustrates me when people post things and don't even show any attempts, just expect an answer. I don't just want to give someone a "free" answer, it would be nice if they put in a little effort when they want us to put effort back in for them.
Thom~
Excuse my typos and sometimes awful grammar. My fingers work faster than my brain does.
Larnu.uk
January 30, 2020 at 9:53 am
It's one of the ways I learned (and still learn) a lot. Post something and have someone post something better even if they call me out directly??? I'm all ears if it involves code.
Ditto 🙂
Maybe I should post more :-/ Just never seem to have an answer or a better solution 🙁
Far away is close at hand in the images of elsewhere.
Anon.
January 30, 2020 at 9:56 am
Thom A
i agree, but there is also one point on the quality of posted questions... language barrier. English is not my first language (heck it's my 3rd language)
A lot of the postings I get frustrated with (but still try and help) are young , barely speaking English, from a cultural background where you "ask" in a different way to English people.. quite often it feels like they are asking for exam answers , or interview responses.
I know this will stir up a hornet's nest, but maybe helping someone with an interview question is not so bad.... you just have to give them a direction to look in (a link to a Microsoft page etc) but not spoonfeed them.
After all, we are a community and 100% of the people on here have learned something by using the site... that knowledge might have helped them get their next job (or keep their existing one)
MVDBA
January 30, 2020 at 10:10 am
Maybe I should post more :-/ Just never seem to have an answer or a better solution 🙁
The one time I met Grant in person, we chatted about this - I commented that I pick the recent requests with zero replies... he said he did kinda the same thing. so get your answer in first 🙂 🙂 🙂
the more requests you get involved in, the more interesting emails you get regarding that topic
MVDBA
January 30, 2020 at 10:43 am
I know this will stir up a hornet's nest, but maybe helping someone with an interview question is not so bad.... you just have to give them a direction to look in (a link to a Microsoft page etc) but not spoonfeed them.
After all, we are a community and 100% of the people on here have learned something by using the site... that knowledge might have helped them get their next job (or keep their existing one)
I have no problems with posting links to the documentation for users; I actually think it's a good idea with some of the "easier" questions. If they are ready and happy to learn, then they'll read the documentation and solve the problem themselves. They've consumed the needed information, learned, and implemented; a great way to evidence learning. If they're just after a spoon-fed answer they won't read it, and that tells us a lot about the user too.
If we did then answer it, I would suspect that the latter type of user wouldn't take the time to understand it, or learn from it. Even more disappointing, if the answer needed changes (table names, had "Pseudo-SQL", etc) some of those users don't even try to replace those parts and just say "this doesn't work. I get error at '{'." >_< Fortunately those types of users aren't very common.
Thom~
Excuse my typos and sometimes awful grammar. My fingers work faster than my brain does.
Larnu.uk
January 30, 2020 at 10:47 am
David Burrows wrote:Maybe I should post more :-/ Just never seem to have an answer or a better solution 🙁
The one time I met Grant in person, we chatted about this - I commented that I pick the recent requests with zero replies... he said he did kinda the same thing. so get your answer in first 🙂 🙂 🙂
the more requests you get involved in, the more interesting emails you get regarding that topic
I'm doing my best to answer more and I kind of go with the zero response approach. However, by the time I've thought through and tested a response and done some real work, you or Grant have usually answered it. I am pleased to say often with a similar and occasionally the same thing I was going to suggest.
On an unrelated topic, I've had a Cheap Trick song stuck in my head all morning because of Grant's editorial today.
How to post a question to get the most help http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537
January 30, 2020 at 11:01 am
MVDBA (Mike Vessey) wrote:David Burrows wrote:Maybe I should post more :-/ Just never seem to have an answer or a better solution 🙁
The one time I met Grant in person, we chatted about this - I commented that I pick the recent requests with zero replies... he said he did kinda the same thing. so get your answer in first 🙂 🙂 🙂
the more requests you get involved in, the more interesting emails you get regarding that topic
I'm doing my best to answer more and I kind of go with the zero response approach. However, by the time I've thought through and tested a response and done some real work, you or Grant have usually answered it. I am pleased to say often with a similar and occasionally the same thing I was going to suggest.
On an unrelated topic, I've had a Cheap Trick song stuck in my head all morning because of Grant's editorial today.
how can we get there first? would you like us to type slower? 🙂 actually that happens quite a lot. I go and get test scripts and links to make a usefull response... then some bugger has posted a 1 line solution while I was typing 🙂
MVDBA
January 30, 2020 at 1:22 pm
So speaking, of, whatever became of Gail? Did I miss something posted here, or?
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