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I'm sick of poor third-party software performance


I'm sick of poor third-party software performance

Poll
Are you tired of complaints/requests from end users wanting you to fix poorly-performing third-party software?

27.78% - 5 votes Yes...I can't take it anymore!!!
27.78% 5 votes
33.33% - 6 votes No...I love solving problems!
33.33% 6 votes
38.89% - 7 votes Don't care...there'll always be poorly-performing third-party software.
38.89% 7 votes
Member votes: 16, Guest votes: 0. You don't have permission to vote in this poll
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GilaMonster
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Jeff, may I send that to my boss?

I've got a meeting with my boss on Monday. Will see what comes out of it. If it's OK, I'll drop you a PM later with some thoughts and details. I don't want to take too much about my company here. A number of my colleagues read this site (at my urging)

Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability

We walk in the dark places no others will enter
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Linda Johanning
Linda Johanning
Right there with Babe
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I have to reply to this post. Yes, I am tired of poorly built 3rd party applications too. For years our IT department didn't have any say in the purchase of software. Now, we are starting to get control but in the mean time are stuck with some bad stuff. Some products not only have poor architecture, but poor code and poor security. The sad thing is that the users and management blame SQL Server and expect me to work magic. Sorry, but a toad will always be a toad :-)



Jeff Moden
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Jeff, may I send that to my boss?

Sure... in fact, I'm honored Blush. But, I would be very careful and I'd possibly do a bit of editing... the term "boss" indicates some form of "management" and they don't take too kindly to being sucker punched with such words as "knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing" or "management borders on the fringes of absolute ignorance". You have to have a very special, frank, and highly trusted/earned relationship with your bosses where they value what you think and do much more highly than your occasional conversational indescretion...

... be careful, Gail... such words can put you in the soup line literally overnight.

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced ree-bar and is a Modenism for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column.
If you think its expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur. -- Red Adair

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to post performance problems
Forum FAQs
Jeff Moden
Jeff Moden
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Linda Johanning (12/13/2007)
I have to reply to this post. Yes, I am tired of poorly built 3rd party applications too. For years our IT department didn't have any say in the purchase of software. Now, we are starting to get control but in the mean time are stuck with some bad stuff. Some products not only have poor architecture, but poor code and poor security. The sad thing is that the users and management blame SQL Server and expect me to work magic. Sorry, but a toad will always be a toad :-)


Ah! I have such products in-house, as well. And, strangely enough, they form a source of unity in our group much as a "common enemy" will cause usually disparate groups to unite in a time of war. They also provide a tremendous source of "opportunity to shine" especially if their code is "open source" like it typically is in SQL Server. Matt Miller hit the nail on the head in his message above where he said...

"There have been times where I've found myself "isolating" them 3rd party products, and starting to cut off its various features to replace them with ones I've written that will actually work without killing a dedicated server."

What an incredible opportunity. Think of it this way... it's impossible to show your worth by correcting a blank piece of paper. Now, that would truly be magic if you could.

Embrace the challenge... start telling managment how you improved the 3rd party software... start getting them used to the idea that you and your team can do better than that and that they'll no longer be held-up at gunpoint by the 3rd party vendor when a change or new feature must be added. After several successes like that, they'll start coming to you and your group for good solutions instead of buying untested, performance challenged 3rd party crap. But, ya gotta trick 'em... you have to "Let them see it your way"... if you try to force them, they'll dig in. And, you have to be really, really careful... that "3rd party POS", as Matt called it, may have been the "brain-child purchase" of that management... you may be dealing with more ego than you know. Wink

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced ree-bar and is a Modenism for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column.
If you think its expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur. -- Red Adair

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to post performance problems
Forum FAQs
Matt Miller (4)
Matt Miller (4)
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Jeff Moden (12/13/2007)
[quote][b] And, you have to be really, really careful... that "3rd party POS", as Matt called it, may have been the "brain-child purchase" of that management... you may be dealing with more ego than you know. Wink


Or in my case, they were in bed with the developer. As in - LITERALLY in bed with the developer (and no - I don't know what happened first - the business relationship or the romantic/sexual one)....Now there's a lesson in diplomacy if I've ever had one......Unsure

Nothing quite like having a developer "with benefits"....w00t

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
GilaMonster
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Jeff Moden (12/13/2007)
Jeff, may I send that to my boss?

Sure... in fact, I'm honored Blush.


Replied via PM. I don't want to hog this thread any more than I have

Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability

We walk in the dark places no others will enter
We stand on the bridge and no one may pass


WILLIAM MITCHELL
WILLIAM MITCHELL
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Unfortunately, 3rd-party apps will only get worse, and MS has to share the blame. Check out this article "SQL Server '08 Adds Dev Perks" from the December 1, 2007 issue of Redmond Developer News:

[url=http://reddevnews.com/news/devnews/article.aspx?editorialsid=878][/url]

The article relates a conversation with Francois Ajenstat, director of SQL Server project management (emphasis added):

"Ajenstat says Microsoft will ship updated bits to ensure that the ADO.NET Entity Framework, which should be complete with this database, will be synchronized in Visual Studio 2008. Microsoft last year pulled the framework from Visual Studio and made the database the delivery vehicle instead, sparking some concern.

"A successful implementation of this framework would enable developers to program using objects rather than lines of code. Developers don't necessarily know how the data in the store is structured or how the tables were built. Now they won't need to, Ajenstat says."

So according to MS, the app devs don't need to know anything about the database.Sick
Jeff Moden
Jeff Moden
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...the app devs don't need to know anything about the database.


Heh... from where I sit, most of them never did, so no real change. Wink

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced ree-bar and is a Modenism for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column.
If you think its expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur. -- Red Adair

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to post performance problems
Forum FAQs
GilaMonster
GilaMonster
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WILLIAM MITCHELL (12/15/2007)

So according to MS, the app devs don't need to know anything about the database.Sick


Personally, I'd rather they didn't, and asked people who do to write them the DB objects they need. In my experience, it's the people who know a little about databases that are the most dangerous. (Heard from a senior C# developer: "You have to put the NOT NULL check first in the where clause" Ermm )

The article's talking about LINQ and Entity Framework. I've looked into them a bit from the developer side. If they're implemented properly, they won't cause problems. The big issue I see is that all the examples that MS have published, show it been implemented the 'wrong' way.

Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability

We walk in the dark places no others will enter
We stand on the bridge and no one may pass


Ian Crandell
Ian Crandell
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Matt Miller (12/13/2007)
....Now there's a lesson in diplomacy if I've ever had one......Unsure
Not to mention a nice lesson in ethics.


It is always nice to be reminded that whatever problem we have with management or anything beyond what we work on, someone else has been through the same thing.

As Jeff said:
No, no... the rant is understood and appreciated.
I would add expected. I think if we can't vent our frustrations to someone that knows where we are coming from, we would explode.

Ian.

"If you are going through hell, keep going."
-- Winston Churchill
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