SQL Clone
SQLServerCentral is supported by Redgate
 
Log in  ::  Register  ::  Not logged in
 
 
 


Circular Reference


Circular Reference

Author
Message
Steve Jones
Steve Jones
SSC Guru
SSC Guru (62K reputation)SSC Guru (62K reputation)SSC Guru (62K reputation)SSC Guru (62K reputation)SSC Guru (62K reputation)SSC Guru (62K reputation)SSC Guru (62K reputation)SSC Guru (62K reputation)

Group: Administrators
Points: 62515 Visits: 19106



Circular Reference


I wrote an editorial on the MCA certification referencing a blog by Simon Munro. He's not written a new blog entry referencing my editorial, which references his blog. Just to continue to circular reference, here's a new editorial referencing his blog referencing his, well you can fill in the blanks.


I think Simon has a good argument for the certification and since he's putting up the $10,000 for the program, he's putting his money where his mouth is. I applaud him and I hope he sees many times the return on his investment. And I'll certainly be one of the first to congratulate him when he achieves the cert.


I'm still not convinced that Microsoft needs to charge that much and if developing the program means it costs $50,000 or $100,000 to get top architects in a room, they should eat it. Maybe the community support from Microsoft isn't as strong as we've thought.


But I do agree that this isn't a certification for most of us. And that there are other certifications more suited to the rest of us technical folk. I think the latest generation of Microsoft certifications is a step in the right direction, but there's still a long way to go. The tests need to be more focused (think an SSIS or a replication test) and harder, requiring you to solve real world problems like the CCIEs must do. There's a lot of brainpower up in Redmond and they've done some amazing work on interfaces. I'd think it would be worth it for them to build a testing engine that could allow someone to actually solve a problem.


Or at least back up a database as a test exercise.


Steve Jones

Follow me on Twitter: @way0utwest
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
My Blog: www.voiceofthedba.com

K. Brian Kelley
K. Brian Kelley
Keeper of the Duck
Keeper of the Duck (10K reputation)

Group: Moderators
Points: 10246 Visits: 1917

I tend to agree on the cost of the cert. I've been an infrastructure architect (according to MS' classification) now for the last 5 years. And while I'd love to pursue the MCA, the fact of the matter is the cost is more than my company would bear (we won't even get into the time commitment) and it's certainly not something I can afford out of pocket.



K. Brian Kelley
@‌kbriankelley
Simon Munro-308389
Simon Munro-308389
Grasshopper
Grasshopper (24 reputation)Grasshopper (24 reputation)Grasshopper (24 reputation)Grasshopper (24 reputation)Grasshopper (24 reputation)Grasshopper (24 reputation)Grasshopper (24 reputation)Grasshopper (24 reputation)

Group: General Forum Members
Points: 24 Visits: 34

Steve,

Since in our field circular references should be avoided (almost at any cost) maybe it raises an eyebrow as to our suitability for certification, writing certification books or anything beyond simply switching our machines on.


K. Brian Kelley
K. Brian Kelley
Keeper of the Duck
Keeper of the Duck (10K reputation)

Group: Moderators
Points: 10246 Visits: 1917

The Microsoft Certified Architect certification is very, very different from any of the other Microsoft certifications. It requires not only putting together a case study (with the help of a mentor), but also meeting a board of application/infrastructure architects (not all Microsoft, either) and not only presenting your case, but also fielding any and all questions related to architecture they may choose to ask. It's not exactly an easy certification, even if you can pony up the money.

Microsoft Certified Architect Program



K. Brian Kelley
@‌kbriankelley
Steve Jones
Steve Jones
SSC Guru
SSC Guru (62K reputation)SSC Guru (62K reputation)SSC Guru (62K reputation)SSC Guru (62K reputation)SSC Guru (62K reputation)SSC Guru (62K reputation)SSC Guru (62K reputation)SSC Guru (62K reputation)

Group: Administrators
Points: 62515 Visits: 19106
I was wondering who would dig into the circular reference, and of course it would be a highly esteemed architect!

Joking on the reference, not on Mr. Munro's work. I think he's a very thoughtful and talented individual.

It was the first title I thought of and I typically go with those, trying not to overthink it too much. Hopefully I haven't damaged my credibility too much.

I'm not sold on this cert, though I agree with Brian it's much different than the others MS has offered. If it works, I'd like to see something similar for DBAs, though hopefully at the $500-1000 level. If it works, it will be the support of people like Simon, and I'm anxious to see how it goes as he proceeds through the process.

Follow me on Twitter: @way0utwest
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
My Blog: www.voiceofthedba.com
Mike C
Mike C
SSCrazy
SSCrazy (2.6K reputation)SSCrazy (2.6K reputation)SSCrazy (2.6K reputation)SSCrazy (2.6K reputation)SSCrazy (2.6K reputation)SSCrazy (2.6K reputation)SSCrazy (2.6K reputation)SSCrazy (2.6K reputation)

Group: General Forum Members
Points: 2601 Visits: 1168

It's admirable that Simon is willing to put his money where his mouth is. However, I think it would help a lot of people researching this certification if he could explain why he's doing it? And what he expects to get in return for his investment?

That would be a lot more persuasive (and impressive) than the "soft-marketing" on the official MCA website, MS' cost-recovery plan, or unsubstantiated claims that this certification is the "equivalent of an MBA degree".


Chris-232075
Chris-232075
SSC Veteran
SSC Veteran (202 reputation)SSC Veteran (202 reputation)SSC Veteran (202 reputation)SSC Veteran (202 reputation)SSC Veteran (202 reputation)SSC Veteran (202 reputation)SSC Veteran (202 reputation)SSC Veteran (202 reputation)

Group: General Forum Members
Points: 202 Visits: 248

I'm a .NET developer and a Sql Server developer, and I'm still back and forth on the costs/benefits of any and all Microsoft certification exams. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that with so much of the material on these exams becoming obsolete so quickly that Microsoft has us on a hamster wheel that benefits them greatly.

Are we suckers or am I too cynical?


K. Brian Kelley
K. Brian Kelley
Keeper of the Duck
Keeper of the Duck (10K reputation)

Group: Moderators
Points: 10246 Visits: 1917

Yes, and yes.

Seriously, though. Certifications, whether we try to discount them, do give some level of credibility or people wouldn't pursue them. Whether it's an HR person looking at our resumes or a manager who pauses because you've got a cert that says you know databases, it does help, even if in a subconcious way. I know I qualify for certain government jobs just because I have a GSEC, a cert many people haven't heard of. Did I get the cert to qualify for certain government security jobs? No but it's nice that I have that as a side benefit.

Also, whenever you seriously undertake certification, you are forcing yourself to take a harder look at a discipline and your knowledge of that discipline. That's a great time to learn something new, to fill in gaps, and to correct mistakes in the knowledge. And while some of the material may seem obsolete, it isn't. There are still a lot of tried and true principles you learn getting an NT 4.0 MCSE that apply to managing Windows Server 2003 boxes today. Yes, a lot has changed (AD, firewalls, automatic updates, new built in accounts, etc., etc., etc.), but a lot has stayed the same (the way shares and NTFS permissions work, what to look for in the event log, had to configure networking using the GUI, etc.).

So while Microsoft surely is making something off all of these certifications, we get some benefits, some very tangible, out of the whole thing, too.



K. Brian Kelley
@‌kbriankelley
Simon Munro-308389
Simon Munro-308389
Grasshopper
Grasshopper (24 reputation)Grasshopper (24 reputation)Grasshopper (24 reputation)Grasshopper (24 reputation)Grasshopper (24 reputation)Grasshopper (24 reputation)Grasshopper (24 reputation)Grasshopper (24 reputation)

Group: General Forum Members
Points: 24 Visits: 34

Thanks for your positive comments - especially from people respected within the SQL community. Although my blogs are littered with my personal motivation for walking the MCA road, perhaps a post which is a clearer reasoning checklist is in order - it should even crystallize some of my own thoughts on the matter from a first-person perspective. I'll add it to my 'List of things I want to blog about' and post it soon. It will at least come after at least one article that I have promised to Steve which I think I should get to since he spends so much time sourcing content for us - and I need to earn a bit of SQL street cred!

I don't know how Steve manages to churn out a daily editorial... I wouldn't get any other work done.

Simon


Chris-232075
Chris-232075
SSC Veteran
SSC Veteran (202 reputation)SSC Veteran (202 reputation)SSC Veteran (202 reputation)SSC Veteran (202 reputation)SSC Veteran (202 reputation)SSC Veteran (202 reputation)SSC Veteran (202 reputation)SSC Veteran (202 reputation)

Group: General Forum Members
Points: 202 Visits: 248

Thanks for the response bkelley.

Your point regarding credibility is sound.

Also, I understand that tried and true the principals do not become obsolete. However, generally speaking, changes in implementation seem to outweigh unchanging principles and unchanging implementation processes/tools ("seem" is the keyword).

With regard to the benefits of gaining knowledge, again, I don't disagree. But I believe that such benefits can also be realized via other, less expensive means. In addition, I would argue that such knowledge can be more tailored by avoiding MS certs. Not to diminish all who hold MS designations, but I've worked with uncertified developers whose performance was consistently superior to that of certified developers (and visa versa). Anecdotal and subjective, I know.

I'm convinced on the credibility front, but I remain on the fence on the knowledge-base front. Trying to keep an open-mind though. I want to believe, and I'm looking forward to Simon's post.

Thanks again!


Go


Permissions

You can't post new topics.
You can't post topic replies.
You can't post new polls.
You can't post replies to polls.
You can't edit your own topics.
You can't delete your own topics.
You can't edit other topics.
You can't delete other topics.
You can't edit your own posts.
You can't edit other posts.
You can't delete your own posts.
You can't delete other posts.
You can't post events.
You can't edit your own events.
You can't edit other events.
You can't delete your own events.
You can't delete other events.
You can't send private messages.
You can't send emails.
You can read topics.
You can't vote in polls.
You can't upload attachments.
You can download attachments.
You can't post HTML code.
You can't edit HTML code.
You can't post IFCode.
You can't post JavaScript.
You can post emoticons.
You can't post or upload images.

Select a forum

































































































































































SQLServerCentral


Search