Trust

  • Comments posted to this topic are about the item Trust

  • For too long we have rolled out the young/immature industry arguments. We must stop because quite simply: we know better.

    A lot of these industries which have compliance, regulatory and professional frameworks started before we had an understanding that we needed these things. There were no examples for a long time then there was no understanding that the same frameworks were required for other industries. We have never been at that point in IT and for about half a century (in UK and USA at least) we should have been rolling out such things.

    The UK has the British Computer Society but that only regulates its members and as membership is not a requirement it can be considered toothless from an industry perspective (although I am sure it does add value for its membership). There is also, to my understanding, other bodies in a similar situation e.g. IEE, ACM and IEEE.

    Gaz

    -- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!

  • I look at it as less that there is an immaturity to IT, but that IT isn't normally the focus of the business. As a DBA or sys admin we can work for essentially any industry and it isn't the IT types that don't follow rules, in general. The IT types are told these are rules for the industry, get the servers and SW to comply with those rules.

    I can do an installation of PeopleSoft Accounting or Great Plains and maintain it. But the accountants and clerks embezzling the money or cooking the books is not the IT guy. My last company, we had an accountant that was embezzling using wire transfers via an external company's software. He would pulling the paper that was signed that it had been done. So then it never hit the accounting software. They asked IT if we could prevent it happening again. There was no way without a big expense to get electronic reporting from the external company. Management said no. It was not our choice. :angry:

    That is what happened with Enron and several other scandals. It's not necessarily the IT, it's the management.



    ----------------
    Jim P.

    A little bit of this and a little byte of that can cause bloatware.

  • Gary Varga (6/17/2013)


    For too long we have rolled out the young/immature industry arguments. We must stop because quite simply: we know better.

    A lot of these industries which have compliance, regulatory and professional frameworks started before we had an understanding that we needed these things. There were no examples for a long time then there was no understanding that the same frameworks were required for other industries. We have never been at that point in IT and for about half a century (in UK and USA at least) we should have been rolling out such things.

    The UK has the British Computer Society but that only regulates its members and as membership is not a requirement it can be considered toothless from an industry perspective (although I am sure it does add value for its membership). There is also, to my understanding, other bodies in a similar situation e.g. IEE, ACM and IEEE.

    But we are immature. Even thought we've been doing this for decades, we run as an unregulated, seat of the pants industry, with little standardization or adherence to practices.

  • In "our" industry we have code/process that do everything from keeping track of the number of labels purchased and used (not even close to life and death) to running a pacemaker. Why would you want to have high standards for the label purchasing program? Yet the pacemaker of course is as important as it gets. There is probably no value in regulating the label purchasing programmer yet the pacemaker one seems worthy. It's all about value.

  • Steve Jones - SSC Editor (6/17/2013)


    But we are immature. Even thought we've been doing this for decades, we run as an unregulated, seat of the pants industry, with little standardization or adherence to practices.

    My point is that we act immaturely and blame it on industry youth; it is an excuse, no longer a reason. We have been using the same excuse for decades with no-one driving change. This would have to either be government driven or become a commercial defacto standard. I don't particularly want it but feel that the industry needs it.

    Gaz

    -- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!

  • We blame it on youth and immaturity, but that's a lot of it. There are driving reasons for this, and I agree with you they don't make sense, but I'm not sure how we change things.

    We use lots of young people, who by definition, don't have experience. We let them run their own processes and standards, because for the most part, those things are effective. They work and produce results. The value from those results often outweighs the need for training and experience to be used, often even if the systems are redone three or four times. It's just not that often it's worth it.

    Add to the fact that the "older" generations that have processes and standards are slow to adapt to news ways of doing things, and I'm not surprised that we just let things run wild. It makes dollar sense, especially in the short term.

  • I find that not always to be the case. Some people could use some decent processes and a little control. I guess it depends on the scenario. More so on the value in the given scenario.

    Gaz

    -- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!

  • Just because other industries have evolved codes of conduct doesn't mean they alway abide by them.

    I agree with the statement "sometimes I think it's just an illusion of more standards and practices" with an emphasis on the word sometimes.

    Having said that doesn't negate the need for codes of conduct, standards, etc.

  • I find that those professional rules/code of conduct are often not lived up to with little or no repercussions and therefore arguing that they provide something more than symbolic value is hard for me to swallow. Lets be real, in most cases you have to violate them pretty egregiously before any action is taken.

    Even in our industry there are segments that have stiff rules of compliance such as for the medical device industry. Having to "reboot" a pacemaker isn't going to be acceptable in almost any case. Or having an infusion pump go crazy and dump a whole bag of morphine into a patient isn't acceptable. So the IT side of these industries are much more highly scrutinized than others.

    Trust is hard to quantify, you assign a person you just met a certain value of trust and the value goes up or down depending on their actions. There are people I just met that I trust more than some I have known for decades because I KNOW I can't trust that other person through their actions.

    DBAs are a particularly tricky aspect because we have access to virtually everything and usually right away. So I think we need to be especially careful about our actions.

    CEWII

    (fixed spelling error in edit)

  • Trade associations and industry standards tend to function most effectively as tools to limit competition and as barriers to entry, rather than as tools to create and enforce professional standards.

    Medical boards, bar associations, and professional unions are notorious for protecting even the most incompetent or outright criminal members. Stories of incompetent doctors still practicing after killing multiple patients, police who are still on the job after unjustified violent assaults or killings, and attorneys who have cost the freedom of innocent people with no consequences are so common that there is little outrage.

    I doubt that IT needs a similar system to protect incompetent developers and DBAs.

  • All fair points. Maybe I am being a little naive and idealistic.

    Gaz

    -- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!

  • Gary Varga (6/18/2013)


    All fair points. Maybe I am being a little naive and idealistic.

    Some idealism is a good thing as long as it's mixed with some skepticism.

    Too much skepticism leads to bitterness and an unwillingness to try anything new.

    Too much idealism leads to unrealistic expections.

    Fortunately, I don't think you've hit either extreme.

  • As technology industries move further and further into areas where lives can be lost (as in pharmaceuticals and construction), I think we will see that things have to mature or else major problems will ensue. The same thing happened with the Triangle Shirtwaist Company fire, which triggered a demand for increased safety rules.

    Sadly, though, it seems that because the current state seems to involve a combination of money or privacy losses, which while terrible don't rise to the level of mortality in most cases, the same pressure hasn't been brought to bear. On top of that, though, is that the tech knowledge is akin to priestly incantations for the vast majority of people and is largely invisible to the naked eye, so I bet there are a lot of disagreements about what real tech maturity might look like.

    But I hope we won't wait for the equivalent of a horrible, deadly fire before agreeing on standards that can increase the industries' maturity. I guess it comes down to whether computerization is truly a unique industry/business entity or can be put in line with other industries such as mechanical engineering, medicine (which of course still has issues), auto manufacturing, etc.

    -------------------
    A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
    Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html

  • webrunner (6/20/2013)


    ... I guess it comes down to whether computerization is truly a unique industry/business entity or can be put in line with other industries such as mechanical engineering, medicine (which of course still has issues), auto manufacturing, etc.

    In some cases, the standards for computerization might be dependent upon the industry.

    There are some standards which would make sense for medical records that wouldn't at all make sense for AutoCad; some that would make sense for financial accounting that wouldn't make sense for games.

    So, a one-size-fits-all standard for IT might not make sense; but standards for IT by industry would.

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