May 28, 2012 at 9:44 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Create Your Own Intense Interview
May 29, 2012 at 1:27 am
I agree that interviews are a tricky thing. Thou I do a bit like your friend does, prepare questions and read about the company on the web and what others says about the company while trying to keep an open mind.
The interview is about you and the company, do you feel yourself that you will fit in and would like to work there? It's two parts interviewing each others. Perhaps that is a luxury for us in the IT busies but I think it's healthy.
To your first questions thou, which I believe you just wrote to put some questions into our heads thou I'd like to answer anyway because I think I have a strange answer. I've worked overtime one single evening over the last one and a half years since I've been at this current job. I do not mind working overtime when it's needed, it can even be fun and build team spirit but there simply has not been a need for it. I think this is important and other companies should learn from it. I also believe it's one way to keep your employees healthy and less inclined to look around for a new job.
Most of you on this board is in the u.s. I believe however, and my gut feeling is that companies does not compete over workforce like this and are more interested into abusing their employees? That does of course happen in Sweden as well but it would seam the market has evolved to the better over the course of history. Is my gut feeling correct or wrong?
May 29, 2012 at 2:53 am
IceDread (5/29/2012)
Most of you on this board is in the u.s. I believe however, and my gut feeling is that companies does not compete over workforce like this and are more interested into abusing their employees? That does of course happen in Sweden as well but it would seam the market has evolved to the better over the course of history. Is my gut feeling correct or wrong?
I'd concur with you there- the American relationship between employer and employee seems a lot more fraught and ripe for abuse, than it does in the UK.
In terms of interviews, I've turned down jobs based on interviews but not many and the main reason has been I'd be bored there. I thoroughly recommend brent ozar's blog for some excellent interview tips and questions.
May 29, 2012 at 3:17 am
You will not meet all your work colleagues at the interview. And any IT / ICT job over just a very few years is 'metamorphic'.
May 29, 2012 at 7:07 am
I heard from a friend recently that went on an interview, and had done some research beforehand. This person jotted thoughts and questions in a notebook, took it to the interview, and made notes as the session progressed. I had never done that, but it makes sense, and I think I'd do that in the future.
I also typically take notes when I'm on an interview. On one interview, I actually made notes on the way home (on a train, not driving) for the company's recruiter. When he called the following week for my feedback (and, as it turned out, my decision as to whether or not I wanted the job), my first question for him was "Do you provide interview training for your employees?" We then spent about another 30 minutes discussing what their interview process was like. At the end, he thanked me, and then asked "I get the feeling this question is redundant, but, the group wants to hire you. Are you interested?" We both had a good laugh at that point, as I turned him down.
May 29, 2012 at 7:20 am
I have to agree with Steve's comment that "It's a mutual meeting to determine if we want to do business together" for it is indeed a partnership. Too often the interview devolves into a scenario where everyone's only looking out for their own interests: the company is checking to make sure that you're at least capable of doing the job and the potential employee is checking to see what salary and benefits they get. Instead, by doing your research ahead of time and by asking appropriate questions, you can propose areas where your skill sets would benefit the company beyond their initial expectations. That makes you a more valuable potential asset and therefore the company will be more willing not only to extend an offer to you but perhaps to also sweeten the pot with additional bonuses (monetary and non-monetary). Also, don't overlook the value of non-monetary benefits either as some of them (fitness center, daycare, etc.) can be quite valuable.
I investigate the company and pursue the interview as though we are going into business together. As Steve mentioned, "you will spend a lot of your life in a job." It's not like picking a new place to do your grocery shopping! Take time and effort to do your research, prepare for the interview with polite, candid questions, and take notes during the interview. Not only will you benefit from this, but you will impress those in the interview as well. After all, you and the company will be joined at the hip for the bulk of your day for quite some time. Doesn't it make sense to choose wisely?
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May 29, 2012 at 8:24 am
IceDread (5/29/2012)
I agree that interviews are a tricky thing. Thou I do a bit like your friend does, prepare questions and read about the company on the web and what others says about the company while trying to keep an open mind.The interview is about you and the company, do you feel yourself that you will fit in and would like to work there? It's two parts interviewing each others. Perhaps that is a luxury for us in the IT busies but I think it's healthy.
To your first questions thou, which I believe you just wrote to put some questions into our heads thou I'd like to answer anyway because I think I have a strange answer. I've worked overtime one single evening over the last one and a half years since I've been at this current job. I do not mind working overtime when it's needed, it can even be fun and build team spirit but there simply has not been a need for it. I think this is important and other companies should learn from it. I also believe it's one way to keep your employees healthy and less inclined to look around for a new job.
Most of you on this board is in the u.s. I believe however, and my gut feeling is that companies does not compete over workforce like this and are more interested into abusing their employees? That does of course happen in Sweden as well but it would seam the market has evolved to the better over the course of history. Is my gut feeling correct or wrong?
There are, of course, employers that abuse the relationship with their employees, and employees who abuse the relationship with their employer. That's true of any form of human interaction. But the majority don't abuse, either direction. That's also true of any human interaction.
The usual ratio, in any culture, is about 1 in 5 people are going to abuse a relationship (employee-employer, marital, whatever). About 2-3% of any given population are actively and wilfully dangerous to the people around them, some covertly and some overtly.
That's not limited to the US. That's humanity-wide.
There are means of detecting and dealing with that kind of thing, which can be easily learned.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
May 29, 2012 at 9:18 am
There are five main "Red Flag" questions I ask an interviewer when I am interviewing:
1. Do you give developers here sysadmin access to your production environments? If they answer Yes to this question I terminate the interview right there. This is a disaster waiting to happen on so many levels.
2. Do you have a Change/Access Control process in place for moving code from Dev to QA to production? If so, is it enforced by managment? If they answer No to these questions I terminate the interview. Code movement must be coordinated, priortized and organized. Otherwise, you are probably walking into a disorganized "fire storm" where everything is an emergency.
3. Are all of your DBA's onsite? A remote DBA or remote consultant is a big red flag IMHO for many reasons..
4. Who does this DBA position report to directly? If they say several people I terminate the interview right there. Taking orders from 4 or 5 different people is not only dangerous to your databases, it can get you in trouble real quick with getting conflicting marching orders from different people.
5. How much of this job is running and fixing daily/weekly/monthly reports? If it is more that 25% then I will usually pass on the job. The problem with reports is you are never done with fixing them and usually no one else in the company wants to mess with them either. So, if you get stuck doing this right off you will most probably be doing it full time. Don't let other people "pigeonhole" your career. Ultimately, YOU are responsible for keeping it on track.
As I have said to frustrated recruiters many times in the past who are just primarily concerned with placing you somewhere and making their commissions. "This isn't just about me fitting in there. This is also about whether they fit me and my career goals as well. Interviews are a two-way street." 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
May 29, 2012 at 11:07 am
stephanie.sullivan (5/29/2012)
IceDread (5/29/2012)
Most of you on this board is in the u.s. I believe however, and my gut feeling is that companies does not compete over workforce like this and are more interested into abusing their employees? That does of course happen in Sweden as well but it would seam the market has evolved to the better over the course of history. Is my gut feeling correct or wrong?I'd concur with you there- the American relationship between employer and employee seems a lot more fraught and ripe for abuse, than it does in the UK.
In terms of interviews, I've turned down jobs based on interviews but not many and the main reason has been I'd be bored there. I thoroughly recommend brent ozar's blog for some excellent interview tips and questions.
I think this goes in waves. In the 90s employees had advantages because so many businesses were expanding and there were not enough people. Plenty of less competent people were hired because a slot was needed. In the last decade it seems the other way around. Less jobs, so employers tend to expect more and give less, and will take advantage of people where they can.
I've usually looked for a job before I needed one, and been able to turn down offers. However I have turned down jobs when I wanted one because I thought something was wrong.
May 29, 2012 at 11:08 am
Michael.Beeby (5/29/2012)
You will not meet all your work colleagues at the interview. And any IT / ICT job over just a very few years is 'metamorphic'.
This isn't necessarily true. I've usually asked to meet everyone in the team and the department. That's usually 10-20 people and I've been successful with this at all but the largest companies (> 1000ppl)
May 29, 2012 at 5:28 pm
I think that of all the things a company can do to attract and keep good employees there is one universal truth - if you dont pay good people good money they will leave. Its a false economy to try to squeeze the salary budget.
May 29, 2012 at 7:03 pm
Interesting editorial, Steve. I'm a little surprised that there isn't more buzz on this topic. I'd like to bring up a little different spin on this; if you'd rather it not go that way, please feel free to kill my diversion right away.
I've been at my current employer for a very long time. So long, that my interviewing skills, quite honestly, aren't as good as they were. But I'm really feeling the need to start looking elsewhere. There are good things about my current job; management isn't bad, for example. But the stress is just going higher than I think it should be. We've lost half of our IT/developer staff over the last 12 months. (This is a small group, so half means 2 people.) We were told that they would replace one of them with someone who has the skills that the other developer and I don't have. We are developers, and I'm the default DBA, due to loosing the only DBA we had 3 years ago. But where we totally don't have any experience is setting up servers, etc. However, we're being forced into it, and I'm totally uncomfortable with this. My employer won't pay anything for any training, and won't let us take any time off to learn, and won't let us learn on the job, unless a crisis has occurred which stops business. Well, we're in a crisis situation and so I'm working on setting up a new server. I only pray to God that I'm getting it right. I hate being responsible for something I don't know anything about. I ask questions about this on the ServerFault.com, but my questions are considered to ignorant and backward so are often voted down. Well, I can't help the fact that I don't know what I'm doing and having to ask the simplest of questions. (I guess on ServerFault.com, there are stupid questions, since mine get voted down.)
Sorry, I digress. Let me cut to the chase and try to bring this back, more or less, to Steve's topic. I'm miserable at networking for new employment, as the best advise suggests you do. When I start a job search, what invariably happens to me is I get bajillions of emails and phone calls from recruiters who are offering 4 to 8 months contract positions, without any benefits, for companies I've never heard of, in places I don't want to live. Why is that? I get the feeling that if I were to accept one of those positions for a 4 month contract, and move at my expense to some place 100 miles north of the arctic circle, that once the contract is over, it will be, "Well, that was fun! Good luck finding something else!!" So, how does one go about finding a better experience at job hunting, with solid companies that have more to offer than a pay check?
Rod
May 29, 2012 at 10:37 pm
I definitely agree with the "mutual meeting" idea. Employment is a relationship, much like family, friendship, marriage, business/customer, etc. It is a two-way street having responsibilities, expectations, rights, give and take, etc on both sides. Employees provide a service and the employer, in return, provides compensation. And if one side is not treating the other well then something should be communicated prior to "breaking up". I only mention that last part because so many people don't see it as a relationship and when they become unhappy they often just decide to leave and only tell the employer upon getting an offer from the new place. In many cases I suspect that the employer would be willing to work with the person to rectify the problem if they only knew that the problem existed in the first place.
I also very much agree with the idea of interviewing prospective companies just as they are interviewing you. Just like the company has an idea of what they want out of the candidate (hopefully clearly stated in the job description, right? ;-)), each person should have an idea of what they want out of an employer.
I was looking for a new job for the first time in many years back in 2005 and came up with an interview sheet of various questions regarding HR policies, work environment, etc and filled out as much as possible from each place. This allowed me to evaluate them more evenly and helped ensure that I didn't forget to ask important questions. I highly recommend that people sit down and think about what they really want out of their work experience before going to any interviews. Think about past jobs and what you did and did not like from each one. If you need to work from home at least one day per week then that should be confirmed before accepting an offer.
I haven't needed that interview form in over 4 years now so I am not sure where it is but here are some of the questions I asked or tried to ascertain through observation:
Some of this stuff might not matter to people and maybe there are things that I missed that should be there. I primarily do DB development and not administration so I am more concerned with Agile vs Waterfall than how many people are in the pager-rotation. The idea is to get a sense of who you are about to potentially make a long-term commitment to.
Also, when interviewing new DBE candidates, I definitely think more highly of people who ask more and better questions. I always ask at the last 5 - 10 minutes of an interview (or last few minutes of a phone screen), "do you have any questions for me?" If the person doesn't ask anything then that is not a good sign. I should at least get either "what does a typical day look like for you" or "the HR person already answered my questions" / "I have a list of questions for the HR person".
Take care,
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May 30, 2012 at 6:52 am
Doctor Who 2 (5/29/2012)
Interesting editorial, Steve. I'm a little surprised that there isn't more buzz on this topic. I'd like to bring up a little different spin on this; if you'd rather it not go that way, please feel free to kill my diversion right away.I've been at my current employer for a very long time. So long, that my interviewing skills, quite honestly, aren't as good as they were. But I'm really feeling the need to start looking elsewhere. There are good things about my current job; management isn't bad, for example. But the stress is just going higher than I think it should be. We've lost half of our IT/developer staff over the last 12 months. (This is a small group, so half means 2 people.) We were told that they would replace one of them with someone who has the skills that the other developer and I don't have. We are developers, and I'm the default DBA, due to loosing the only DBA we had 3 years ago. But where we totally don't have any experience is setting up servers, etc. However, we're being forced into it, and I'm totally uncomfortable with this. My employer won't pay anything for any training, and won't let us take any time off to learn, and won't let us learn on the job, unless a crisis has occurred which stops business. Well, we're in a crisis situation and so I'm working on setting up a new server. I only pray to God that I'm getting it right. I hate being responsible for something I don't know anything about. I ask questions about this on the ServerFault.com, but my questions are considered to ignorant and backward so are often voted down. Well, I can't help the fact that I don't know what I'm doing and having to ask the simplest of questions. (I guess on ServerFault.com, there are stupid questions, since mine get voted down.)
Sorry, I digress. Let me cut to the chase and try to bring this back, more or less, to Steve's topic. I'm miserable at networking for new employment, as the best advise suggests you do. When I start a job search, what invariably happens to me is I get bajillions of emails and phone calls from recruiters who are offering 4 to 8 months contract positions, without any benefits, for companies I've never heard of, in places I don't want to live. Why is that? I get the feeling that if I were to accept one of those positions for a 4 month contract, and move at my expense to some place 100 miles north of the arctic circle, that once the contract is over, it will be, "Well, that was fun! Good luck finding something else!!" So, how does one go about finding a better experience at job hunting, with solid companies that have more to offer than a pay check?
Sounds like the current job is at a dying company. If so, getting out is definitely a good idea. I've been through the "deaths" of two companies, and it's not a pretty thing.
In terms of networking for job opportunities, have you tried LinkedIn? That's how I got my current job. Ask the tech people you know about good recruiters in areas you are willing to move to, or in your current community.
On the short/medium contracts you're running into: Unless moving is going to be quite cheap, I don't recommend moving for one of those. If you live by yourself, and can uproot and move with few if any consequences and minimal expenses, then contract-hopping all over the place can be quite an adventure, but it's not to everyone's taste. And definitely doesn't work well if you have children, etc., because of intereference in school attendance and all that.
The way contracts usually work is, if they won't be renewed, they let you know well before-hand, sometimes a couple of months early, and you start looking for your next contract then. (At least, that's the theory. Some employers aren't that well organized, of course.) That means you usually know weeks before a contract expires, who your next contract is, where, and so on. One of the advantages of contract work is that nobody takes offense if you're job hunting from your desk at work.
Direct-hire employees who are found surfing Monster.com or Dice or whatever, are going to be in disfavor with HR, at the very least. Contractors, it's expected behavior, and nobody gets bent out of shape on it.
So, if you want more permanent work, you'll need to find a market for it. I can't help you directly there, but sites like Monster and Dice probably can. (Unless you're in central Florida, in which case, I can tell you what the job market looks like.) If you like the idea, or can at least live with it, of working less permanently on contracts, don't worry about "nice to have you here, don't let the door hit you on the way out". (Well, unless you deserve that or get one of the rare employers who treats everyone that way.) Contract work isn't as scary as it initially looks. At least, not in the markets I've seen.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
May 30, 2012 at 7:49 am
mtucker-732014 (5/29/2012)
I think that of all the things a company can do to attract and keep good employees there is one universal truth - if you dont pay good people good money they will leave. Its a false economy to try to squeeze the salary budget.
When the economy is slow and jobs less plentiful and the future is in doubt (like now) you can get away with paying good people less than what they are really worth. That's just the way it is.
The probability of survival is inversely proportional to the angle of arrival.
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