September 20, 2018 at 9:08 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Fitting Into RAM
September 20, 2018 at 10:01 pm
Ha, I dream of 64GB! I currently have 6 servers with 4GB, 7 servers with 8GB and the rest (23) ranging from 12GB to 50GB.
Our SAP and BW servers are in the cloud now but even those only had 32GB.!
September 21, 2018 at 1:48 am
Hi,
A good discussion topic I think.
I have been having these conversation with my superiors over the last 10 year.
I have discovered that no matter how much benefit this would give, it will always come second place to budget.
We have recently moved to the Amazon Cloud, lots or pros and definitely lots of cons, but now we have resource based costs.
All this means is that we work on the principle of " what is the least amount of resources we can work to".
In response to the topic, we have many small to medium size databases and our systems would be dramatically improved but loading completely into RAM but it just won't happen.
The alternative is to find alternative technologies that suit certain elements of our product, for example we are using Amazon Elastic search to store certain data thus reducing the number of calls to the main databases.
Rather than design to the capabilities of SQL Server and provide the resources (particularly RAM) to make it run well, I see in our products in particular a move to find cheaper "bolt on" solutions that solve immediate problems.
I'm not convinced
Give me more RAM
Graeme
September 21, 2018 at 6:40 am
Wow 64GB of RAM is like a dream. Right now, we use VMs, which we could get more RAM for, but there's pretty much no business case for more RAM unless the server is getting overloaded on a regular basis. Our biggest database is currently running on 24GB, while the database size is ~300GB. So yes, we could put the whole thing in 1TB RAM, but that's not even a remote possibility.
September 21, 2018 at 7:55 am
I wish............
On the topic of memory AND storage.... keep hearing it is cheap... it is only cheap until you ask for more....
Most of our SQL Servers I attempt to ask for a reasonable amt. of memory based on the system. If I always asked for over 20 gig the server team would highly question it.
I wish I could get 64 gig of memory for nearly all production SQL Servers.... that just isn't going to happen.
September 21, 2018 at 8:05 am
We have a couple of 2.2 TB database and it's that large because of a very common problem in the industry... people use RDBMSs as a "keep it forever" file system. The other problem is that, much like dust gathering on available horizontal surfaces, people abhor a vacuum. If you have the space, why not use abuse it?
It's just like CPU power. People used to do some incredible things with computers that we'd now consider to be a "toy" but people have gotten lazy with the power of today's machines. They've also been pressured by schedules to produce code as fast as they can instead of doing it right by planning on increased usage and scalability.
Would I turn down extra CPU power or RAM or Disk Space? Not on your life! Will it make me a lazy programmer? Again, not on your life because I know that stuff grows because of increasing numbers of customers and capabilities and that, someday, we'll need the headroom. They key is to not waste that headroom.
I'll also remind folks that while hardware is certainly important when it comes to being able to write fast code, writing code that runs fast/efficiently (and, of course, correctly, which is a whole 'nuther story :sick:) is much more important. We've been through this recently (about 3 years ago). We went from 16 CPUs and 128 GB to a "monster" machine with 32 CPUs and 256 GB of RAM with full up SSDs for a new SAN. Everyone (except me) was claiming and looking forward to the incredible performance gains that would be realized. The net result? Some of the hours long batch jobs ran about twice as fast (most didn't) and none of the GUI code ran faster. Compared to the code changes we've made, which have averaged a 60X performance gain and up to a 1,000,000X performance gain (NOT a misprint, much GUI code has been reduced from 22 seconds to micro-seconds), the hardware changes were almost a joke.
Even most MPP appliance vendors will advertise only a 30X performance gain... and it comes at the cost of not only some hairy prices but you still DO have to change your code to be able to use them. Ironically, a lot of such code changes would benefit even a monolithic box.
And, no... except for the occasional "trick" of using a Tally Table or nearly equivalent Tally function, the only real "trick" we used to change our code to run so fast was to simply write better code to "LET" SQL Server do what it already knows how to do. Except for the occasional use of a Tally function, we just used what SQL Server already knows how to do if you let it. It's not difficult, either. You just have to know what SQL Server and (especially) what T-SQL is capable of and then you won't need so many CPUs and so much RAM.
And that all brings us back to people. The only way we were able to achieve such things is for everyone to take the bloody chip off their shoulder and work together and to embrace experimentation. In other words, a culture change (the latest buzzword term for this is DevOps, which has already been bastardized into meaning something that it is not) and that culture change needs to be made from the CEO right down to the person that swamps out the toilets.
Hardware is good but code is where the performance is. To write good code, the culture must change or you're going to need a shedload of hardware, a ton of expensive software (which frequently makes things worse) and hundreds of totally unnecessary and unsupportable tricks
For you good folks stuck with 4GB or 8GB of RAM, my heart goes out to you because, due to poor coding by the people that built it, the operating system itself usually requires at least that much.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
September 21, 2018 at 8:12 am
Jeff Moden - Friday, September 21, 2018 8:05 AMWe have a couple of 2.2 TB database and it's that large because of a very common problem in the industry... people use RDBMSs as a "keep it forever" file system. The other problem is that, much like dust gathering on available horizontal surfaces, people abhor a vacuum. If you have the space, why not
useabuse it?It's just like CPU power. People used to do some incredible things with computers that we'd now consider to be a "toy" but people have gotten lazy with the power of today's machines. They've also been pressured by schedules to produce code as fast as they can instead of doing it right by planning on increased usage and scalability.
Would I turn down extra CPU power or RAM or Disk Space? Not on your life! Will it make me a lazy programmer? Again, not on your life because I know that stuff grows because of increasing numbers of customers and capabilities and that, someday, we'll need the headroom. They key is to not waste that headroom.
I'll also remind folks that while hardware is certainly important when it comes to being able to write fast code, writing code that runs fast/efficiently (and, of course, correctly, which is a whole 'nuther story :sick:) is much more important. We've been through this recently (about 3 years ago). We went from 16 CPUs and 128 GB to a "monster" machine with 32 CPUs and 256 GB of RAM with full up SSDs for a new SAN. Everyone (except me) was claiming and looking forward to the incredible performance gains that would be realized. The net result? Some of the hours long batch jobs ran about twice as fast (most didn't) and none of the GUI code ran faster. Compared to the code changes we've made, which have averaged a 60X performance gain and up to a 1,000,000X performance gain (NOT a misprint, much GUI code has been reduced from 22 seconds to micro-seconds), the hardware changes were almost a joke.
Even most MPP appliance vendors will advertise only a 30X performance gain... and it comes at the cost of not only some hairy prices but you still DO have to change your code to be able to use them. Ironically, a lot of such code changes would benefit even a monolithic box.
And, no... except for the occasional "trick" of using a Tally Table or nearly equivalent Tally function, the only real "trick" we used to change our code to run so fast was to simply write better code to "LET" SQL Server do what it already knows how to do. Except for the occasional use of a Tally function, we just used what SQL Server already knows how to do if you let it. It's not difficult, either. You just have to know what SQL Server and (especially) what T-SQL is capable of and then you won't need so many CPUs and so much RAM.
And that all brings us back to people. The only way we were able to achieve such things is for everyone to take the bloody chip off their shoulder and work together and to embrace experimentation. In other words, a culture change (the latest buzzword term for this is DevOps, which has already been bastardized into meaning something that it is not) and that culture change needs to be made from the CEO right down to the person that swamps out the toilets.
Hardware is good but code is where the performance is. To write good code, the culture must change or you're going to need a shedload of hardware, a ton of expensive software (which frequently makes things worse) and hundreds of totally unnecessary and unsupportable tricks
For you good folks stuck with 4GB or 8GB of RAM, my heart goes out to you because, due to poor coding by the people that built it, the operating system itself usually requires at least that much.
Reminds me of a previous boss of mine in the 1990s when talking about upgrading our Mainframe.... Throwing hardware at a problem simply masks the problem... bad code.
September 21, 2018 at 8:48 am
Summer90 - Friday, September 21, 2018 8:12 AMReminds me of a previous boss of mine in the 1990s when talking about upgrading our Mainframe.... Throwing hardware at a problem simply masks the problem... bad code.
Agreed except it frequently doesn't even mask the problem because it frequently doesn't actually help. I've also seen it actually make the problem worse when unexpected parallelism comes into play.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
September 21, 2018 at 9:54 am
The primary database I work with could be best described as an operational data store; containing time versioned copies of tables from multiple OLTP data sources. There are high volume call center applications and mobile apps that utilize this database between 9am - 6pm weekdays, nightly ETL, and sporatic historical reporting. The database is 4+ TB with 200 GB max memory reserved for SQL Server, so that means only 5% of the database could fit in memory.
However, I don't see stacking more memory as necessarily worthwhile. Only the data pages needed to cover queries are really needed in the buffer cache, and that's only a small fraction of the database. The vast majority of the data is historical, only referenced for historical reporting, so I keep the daily usage queries down to less than 100 ms by tuning the SQL to prevent full or partial table scans, hash match joins, and sorting. There are some queries joining multiple tables where the average latency is 10 ms or less, and that's with dozens of requests per second, because it has a very high cache hit ratio.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
September 21, 2018 at 9:55 am
My largest SQL Server database is 360GB. Most of them are under 100GB, with an average of maybe 10GB.
My largest database is approximately 2TB. Yes, terabytes. I manage four databases this size, plus another 17 databases that are around 175GB. These are all running another product for the back end database, and use RHEL for the OS.
I believe our VM hosts have as much as 192GB of RAM, so we aren't going to load these into RAM. I do have lots of smaller production databases that could, but none of them need that. Our SQL Server Windows servers have anywhere from 4GB of RAM up to 16GB for the most part. If they have at least 8GB, we limit SQL Server to 4GB due to how badly Windows manager memory. If we have at least 12GB, we use all but 5GB for Windows. The database that is 360GB - it has 16GB of RAM and runs absolutely fine.
My desktop has 32GB of RAM, and I frequently max that out pretty well. My previous machine only had 16GB, and a very nice processor, but froze frequently due to having too many things running. When you add in Windows requirements and anti virus, well, 8GB doesn't give you any RAM for applications!
What is interesting is that my home machine has 48GB, and a SMOKING processor, plus a very nice graphics card. I have always had better equipment for my personal use than at work. I build my own machines, and I spend about half as much as work does, for about 10 times the performance that our stock machines have.
Dave
September 21, 2018 at 10:00 am
This is probably one of the better topics this year as it's a battle we all fight. On one hand we have our developers and consultants demanding lots of resources but these come at a cost far greater than going to best buy and purchasing a $80 1TB hard disk. They also use a lot of entity framework based development where they don't even see the database structure or code being sent to the database system. Most modern database systems can crunch a lot of data on 4 cores and 16GB of RAM, it's all how you code the TSQL. The other side of the argument is from the systems administrators who see the real costs of the infrastructure.
IMHO the best thing to come out of the cloud is the costs are directly retailed to resource use. It's very viable when a server has bad code as the expense can go up dramatically.
September 21, 2018 at 10:20 am
CC-597066 - Thursday, September 20, 2018 10:01 PMHa, I dream of 64GB! I currently have 6 servers with 4GB, 7 servers with 8GB and the rest (23) ranging from 12GB to 50GB.Our SAP and BW servers are in the cloud now but even those only had 32GB.!
I still think there are lots of people in your shoes. The idea that most people have TB databases and run 128GB or more on standard isn't true. There are plenty of those but I think that majority of legacy instances are probably running sub 64GB. Hence my question
September 21, 2018 at 10:26 am
Eric M Russell - Friday, September 21, 2018 9:54 AMHowever, I don't see stacking more memory as necessarily worthwhile. Only the data pages needed to cover queries are really needed in the buffer cache, and that's only a small fraction of the database
And this is really the case with most systems. Write good code, tune queries, and maybe most importatly, prevent things like SELECT * with no, or very side, WHERE clauses. If you do this, then I think it's most of the time that 5-10% of the data is really needed.
September 21, 2018 at 10:27 am
djackson 22568 - Friday, September 21, 2018 9:55 AMWhat is interesting is that my home machine has 48GB, and a SMOKING processor, plus a very nice graphics card. I have always had better equipment for my personal use than at work. I build my own machines, and I spend about half as much as work does, for about 10 times the performance that our stock machines have.
Isn't that crazy? I've had 24GB and 32GB at home for the last few years. Up until this year, the prod SSC servers had 24GB.
September 21, 2018 at 10:44 am
jarick 15608 - Friday, September 21, 2018 10:00 AMThis is probably one of the better topics this year as it's a battle we all fight. On one hand we have our developers and consultants demanding lots of resources but these come at a cost far greater than going to best buy and purchasing a $80 1TB hard disk. They also use a lot of entity framework based development where they don't even see the database structure or code being sent to the database system. Most modern database systems can crunch a lot of data on 4 cores and 16GB of RAM, it's all how you code the TSQL. The other side of the argument is from the systems administrators who see the real costs of the infrastructure.IMHO the best thing to come out of the cloud is the costs are directly retailed to resource use. It's very viable when a server has bad code as the expense can go up dramatically.
Yes hardware might be a little more expensive than normal consumer hardware but even enterprise level hd's and RAM are relatively cheap and it baffles me to no end that companies which won't bat an eye at 6 or 7 figure software licensing costs get stingy about a few grand more for adequate hardware.
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