That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that 1) it *is* very valuable to have the GUIs despite what the post said, and 2) that the good GUIs help beginners learn "how to do it by hand" correctly. I'm also saying that once you know how to do something by hand, always doing it by hand is generally a waste of time and unnecessary point of possible errors if a GUI is available.

I hear you that not everyone is lucky enough to be able to work with a good GUI tool. That's too bad. I can't imagine wanting to work in such a place. I believe in having the tools available to do a job efficiently. Too bad ERwin is ridiculously expensive.

Jim, thanks for showing how my previous post was not clear. I hope this post clarifies my thoughts.