SQL Clone
SQLServerCentral is supported by Redgate
 
Log in  ::  Register  ::  Not logged in
 
 
 


Believing the Data


Believing the Data

Author
Message
Steve Jones
Steve Jones
SSC Guru
SSC Guru (403K reputation)SSC Guru (403K reputation)SSC Guru (403K reputation)SSC Guru (403K reputation)SSC Guru (403K reputation)SSC Guru (403K reputation)SSC Guru (403K reputation)SSC Guru (403K reputation)

Group: Administrators
Points: 403518 Visits: 20462
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Believing the Data

Follow me on Twitter: @way0utwest
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
My Blog: www.voiceofthedba.com
Dave Poole
Dave Poole
SSC-Forever
SSC-Forever (42K reputation)SSC-Forever (42K reputation)SSC-Forever (42K reputation)SSC-Forever (42K reputation)SSC-Forever (42K reputation)SSC-Forever (42K reputation)SSC-Forever (42K reputation)SSC-Forever (42K reputation)

Group: General Forum Members
Points: 42324 Visits: 3857
There are so many things we have to ask ourselves with regard to autonomous systems.
Which rules designed for human situations simply don't apply in autonomous ones? If you take vehicle stopping distances at a given speed an element of it is the time it takes the human to react and begin to apply the brake. A human will be thinking of the road, listening to the radio, thinking about what is for tea tonight and a thousand other things that will extend that reaction time. An autonomous vehicle will be thinking about the job of piloting the vehicle 100% of the time and be indefatigable. It may not have to detect and react to the vehicle in front, it may be told explicitly by the vehicle in front that braking will take place. It may have any number of sensors going far beyond those of a human.
The precision in driving made possible by such technology may make it possible to reduce road width to the point where cars travelling 100mph in opposite directions need only have 6" of clearance either side rather than several feet for human drivers, if we trusted humans to drive at 100mph on normal roads.

In terms of believability of data I think there is a tendency to use data to prop up a preconceived view. Hence the joke about using data the way that a drunk uses a lamp post. For support rather than illumination. As long as data tells you what you expect it goes unchallenged. The instant it challenges what you need it to say then "the data must be wrong".

LinkedIn Profile
www.simple-talk.com
archie flockhart
archie flockhart
SSCommitted
SSCommitted (1.8K reputation)SSCommitted (1.8K reputation)SSCommitted (1.8K reputation)SSCommitted (1.8K reputation)SSCommitted (1.8K reputation)SSCommitted (1.8K reputation)SSCommitted (1.8K reputation)SSCommitted (1.8K reputation)

Group: General Forum Members
Points: 1839 Visits: 1179
Why would anyone believe log-file data from the industry that routinely faked emissions tests to get round anti-pollution laws ?
xsevensinzx
xsevensinzx
SSChampion
SSChampion (13K reputation)SSChampion (13K reputation)SSChampion (13K reputation)SSChampion (13K reputation)SSChampion (13K reputation)SSChampion (13K reputation)SSChampion (13K reputation)SSChampion (13K reputation)

Group: General Forum Members
Points: 13525 Visits: 4745
Data does not lie, but it can be wrong. Machines, like humans, can come to the wrong conclusions based on the available data and variables.
jasona.work
jasona.work
One Orange Chip
One Orange Chip (29K reputation)One Orange Chip (29K reputation)One Orange Chip (29K reputation)One Orange Chip (29K reputation)One Orange Chip (29K reputation)One Orange Chip (29K reputation)One Orange Chip (29K reputation)One Orange Chip (29K reputation)

Group: General Forum Members
Points: 29444 Visits: 14958
In terms of the case mentioned, stop and think about the distances involved. .4 feet is about 4.75 inches. 4.75 inches... Quite likely, your cell phones' screen is longer than that, so it's no wonder the officer thought the vehicle was closer than the 10ft limit. Now, what I could see potentially coming from this would be several things:
A) A method for the owner / operator of an autonomous vehicle (AV) to pull up the "black box" logging from the time in question, showing an officer they are correct or incorrect (think showing an officer dashcam video when you're involved in or witnessed an accident.)
B) A way for an officer to remotely pull up the logs of a vehicles sensors (and this one is scary from a privacy point of view)

On the main thrust of the editorial, perhaps the biggest challenge I can see will be ensuring the security and integrity of both the data and the methods used to collect it. I can easily see several potential points along the data flow where changes could be made. The other point to consider when believing or not believing the data is, as you pointed out, the context. ML systems are only as good as the data that is fed into them. How many times has a disagreement occurred between people, because one side didn't bring up a point that "everyone knows?" No matter how "smart" ML systems get, they'll only ever be as good as the data fed into them (Garbage In / Garbage Out,) and how well they were initially "trained" by the developers (whose own biases *will* creep into the system.)

Perhaps the best that anyone can expect to achieve with such systems will be "trust but verify..."
jay-h
jay-h
SSCrazy Eights
SSCrazy Eights (9.6K reputation)SSCrazy Eights (9.6K reputation)SSCrazy Eights (9.6K reputation)SSCrazy Eights (9.6K reputation)SSCrazy Eights (9.6K reputation)SSCrazy Eights (9.6K reputation)SSCrazy Eights (9.6K reputation)SSCrazy Eights (9.6K reputation)

Group: General Forum Members
Points: 9580 Visits: 2665
jasona.work - Friday, April 13, 2018 5:56 AM
In terms of the case mentioned, stop and think about the distances involved. .4 feet is about 4.75 inches. 4.75 inches... Quite likely, your cell phones' screen is longer than that, so it's no wonder the officer thought the vehicle was closer than the 10ft limit.

Also, 10 foot to where? Knee, elbow, big toe on forward stepping foot? If the law says 10 foot minimum, why shouldn't the automated system use a 12 or 15 ft safety margin? Certainly most good human drivers would do that. There will certainly be plenty of times that the automated system will misinterpret the surrounding situation. Is that a malfunction if the software fails to operate as intended? That would essentially be a manufacturing failure (just as a a malfunctioning airbag). I suspect lot of the liability is going to go back to the manufacturer/coder.


...

-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
Dalkeith
Dalkeith
SSCommitted
SSCommitted (1.5K reputation)SSCommitted (1.5K reputation)SSCommitted (1.5K reputation)SSCommitted (1.5K reputation)SSCommitted (1.5K reputation)SSCommitted (1.5K reputation)SSCommitted (1.5K reputation)SSCommitted (1.5K reputation)

Group: General Forum Members
Points: 1538 Visits: 1262

Good evidence should be corroborated whether that's from individuals (notoriously unreliable) or from autonomous systems. If those systems are under control of parties with different motives and they still agree all the better ultimately. Set up the system to corroborate bias to discourage manipulation... data collection systems set up by individuals are prone to bias according to the individuals setting them up.

Hence
Double blind testing.

Still argue that data is a better evidential starting point than no data.


Eric M Russell
Eric M Russell
SSC Guru
SSC Guru (75K reputation)SSC Guru (75K reputation)SSC Guru (75K reputation)SSC Guru (75K reputation)SSC Guru (75K reputation)SSC Guru (75K reputation)SSC Guru (75K reputation)SSC Guru (75K reputation)

Group: General Forum Members
Points: 75770 Visits: 13394
For good reason, I'm sure that the police officer was watching that driver-less car closely, and I can picture him following it for some time, waiting for it to make a mistake. At this stage in development, I think all driver-less cars should be treated as if they are a naive 16-year-old with a fresh license.

Do driver-less cars see all pedestrians as an equal risk? For example, if a driver-less car were to pass a group of kids on bicycles, is it smart enough to anticipate the higher probability that this particular demographic of pedestrian can drift or suddenly dart into the street, and will it thus make a minor a adjustment to speed and distance accordingly? A conscientious human driver will make this type of subjective risk mitigation dozens of times while on their daily commute.


"The universe is complicated and for the most part beyond your control, but your life is only as complicated as you choose it to be."
jay-h
jay-h
SSCrazy Eights
SSCrazy Eights (9.6K reputation)SSCrazy Eights (9.6K reputation)SSCrazy Eights (9.6K reputation)SSCrazy Eights (9.6K reputation)SSCrazy Eights (9.6K reputation)SSCrazy Eights (9.6K reputation)SSCrazy Eights (9.6K reputation)SSCrazy Eights (9.6K reputation)

Group: General Forum Members
Points: 9580 Visits: 2665
Eric M Russell - Friday, April 13, 2018 7:22 AM
A conscientious human driver will make this type of subjective risk mitigation dozens of times while on their daily commute.

Agreed. When needing to pass close to pedestrians, there is a great deal of value in being able to make eye contact, to determine that the pedestrian is not looking somewhere else. Not to mention cases where there is a traffic officer or road worker attempting to direct traffic.


...

-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
Jedak
Jedak
SSCarpal Tunnel
SSCarpal Tunnel (4K reputation)SSCarpal Tunnel (4K reputation)SSCarpal Tunnel (4K reputation)SSCarpal Tunnel (4K reputation)SSCarpal Tunnel (4K reputation)SSCarpal Tunnel (4K reputation)SSCarpal Tunnel (4K reputation)SSCarpal Tunnel (4K reputation)

Group: General Forum Members
Points: 4008 Visits: 1177
I am a firm believer in using data, facts, and science to prove things, but if it is digital it can be hacked. So, there definitely needs to be a lot of security to protect and ensure that the data being provided from say a driver-less car has not been tampered with.

It would not surprise me one bit that companies would knowingly falsify data to win a court case, or someone might hack a device to tamper with the data to make a company or individual guilty.
Go


Permissions

You can't post new topics.
You can't post topic replies.
You can't post new polls.
You can't post replies to polls.
You can't edit your own topics.
You can't delete your own topics.
You can't edit other topics.
You can't delete other topics.
You can't edit your own posts.
You can't edit other posts.
You can't delete your own posts.
You can't delete other posts.
You can't post events.
You can't edit your own events.
You can't edit other events.
You can't delete your own events.
You can't delete other events.
You can't send private messages.
You can't send emails.
You can read topics.
You can't vote in polls.
You can't upload attachments.
You can download attachments.
You can't post HTML code.
You can't edit HTML code.
You can't post IFCode.
You can't post JavaScript.
You can post emoticons.
You can't post or upload images.

Select a forum








































































































































































SQLServerCentral


Search