November 18, 2014 at 2:01 am
I think this is were good managers come in. I don't think we have good enough theories in place at the moment to rank people based on algorithms. I've seen people trying to rank software on algorithms and it is extremely inferior compared to the judgement of an experienced individual.
I think for people you need to be flexible and keep the human element.
This is the kind of thing that needs to be done by Watson like computers and needs lots and lots of research.
By all means collect metrics but bad managers may use such applications too literally.
November 18, 2014 at 2:41 am
The nearest I've got to changing people's lives (and the nearest I ever want to get) is supplying the data that told the business that lots of workshop mechanics were working overtime on Sundays (double time) but very few worked Friday afternoon. Managers made some changes to the overtime rules and a few more wives were lumbered with their husbands at home on a Sunday!
I've worked with employee data including absence data reporting for many years and deliberately avoid looking at some information because I feel I have no business going there. I prefer to leave it to the HR professionals who are trained in people management. My task is only to supply them with the data they request to do their job.
November 18, 2014 at 4:38 am
As someone, like many, who has sifted through thousands of CVs and gone on to interview many it is very hard to believe that much of the data will accurately reflect reality.
Looking at social media and seeing that someone's CV doesn't match something akin to their LinkedIn profile might be helpful, seeing photos online of debauchery at a business conference might call into question their sense of propriety but seeing someone drinking cocktails (even too many) at a private BBQ is irrelevant. I have been told that playing field hockey risks various injuries and squash risks heart attacks and knee injuries but I counter that with sitting on a sofa all evening long brings its own risks. Other metrics would also need to be balanced.
Basically, I am I a qualified actuarial? No. So I shouldn't be assuming that I know how to process such data when there is already a field for that expertise. On the other hand I can find out information and apply common sense.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
November 18, 2014 at 5:38 am
I don't know that I'm qualified to make decisions about how people live their lives and the impact that will have on their costs in the future. All the genetic and environmental factors would have to be taken into account and I'm simply not knowledgeable enough to write the algorithms to analyze it. I don't work in health care, but I would be comfortable writing to specifications. Nonetheless, I think the human factor has to come into play somewhere, which would require manual intervention by a human to assess risk factors and benefits from lifestyle.
The other problem is that we don't fully understand everything about how the human body works, so any conclusions we draw would be based on the understanding of the people who designed the algorithms at they time they designed them. I think the way US health insurance companies assess people is simplistic but very flawed. The best example I can give is a guy with whom I work. At 47 years old, he's in phenomenal shape. He not only runs marathons, but also completes iron man competitions. The all-knowing health insurance company determined that he was overweight. You certainly wouldn't know it by looking at him. Clearly, someone has something wrong somewhere, but the bureaucracy had already made the decision.
November 18, 2014 at 6:26 am
More importantly, even if employees make some personal decisions that affect their performance in somewhat negative ways, they're still people and are still worthy of jobs and the ability to live well. If a company starts firing or making promotion or bonus decisions based on an employee's "healthy lifestyle" or optimization of their personal habits as they relate to work, they had better be prepared to be sued when new medical opinions about what that entails crops up.
And they'd better be prepared to lose overtime, especially from salaried workers. Many studies have shown that working longer hours degrades performance. If you're going to insist that I drink coffee or don't have a candy bar and my job depends on this then I will sue you if I'm required to work any hours over what the best science suggests.
If businesses have any sense (and there is little evidence that many do) they'll stay out of this minefield. People are not machines and cannot be graded as such.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
November 18, 2014 at 6:35 am
Would you want aspects of your life, perhaps data outside of your health (think driving, finance, etc) to be part of the evaluation (or negotiation) process for your employment?
I'm not so sure it isn't already. My credit has been looked at by the last 3 employers I've had as a condition of an employment background check. And I have been asked during the interview process if I had a valid drivers license.
One might argue it is the industry I'm in (currently govt.) and the that my "driving record" was not thoroughly scrutinized by a simplistic question. However, a candidate with good qualifications having a bad credit rating with no drivers license at all could leave a black cloud on a hiring manager's evaluation process when compared to an OK candidate with good credit and a valid drivers license.
It is the time we live in.
November 18, 2014 at 6:43 am
cackalackian (11/18/2014)
Would you want aspects of your life, perhaps data outside of your health (think driving, finance, etc) to be part of the evaluation (or negotiation) process for your employment?
I'm not so sure it isn't already. My credit has been looked at by the last 3 employers I've had as a condition of an employment background check. And I have been asked during the interview process if I had a valid drivers license.
One might argue it is the industry I'm in (currently govt.) and the that my "driving record" was not thoroughly scrutinized by a simplistic question. However, a candidate with good qualifications having a bad credit rating with no drivers license at all could leave a black cloud on a hiring manager's evaluation process when compared to an OK candidate with good credit and a valid drivers license.
It is the time we live in.
Credit checks for employment should be illegal.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
November 18, 2014 at 6:46 am
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
cackalackian (11/18/2014)
Would you want aspects of your life, perhaps data outside of your health (think driving, finance, etc) to be part of the evaluation (or negotiation) process for your employment?
I'm not so sure it isn't already. My credit has been looked at by the last 3 employers I've had as a condition of an employment background check. And I have been asked during the interview process if I had a valid drivers license.
One might argue it is the industry I'm in (currently govt.) and the that my "driving record" was not thoroughly scrutinized by a simplistic question. However, a candidate with good qualifications having a bad credit rating with no drivers license at all could leave a black cloud on a hiring manager's evaluation process when compared to an OK candidate with good credit and a valid drivers license.
It is the time we live in.
Credit checks for employment should be illegal.
I'm pretty sure they are in the UK. Although I seem to remember a friend of mine had any debts paid off when he joined the police. The thinking being that if he had no debts he would be less likely to take bribes.
How to post a question to get the most help http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537
November 18, 2014 at 6:51 am
BWFC (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
cackalackian (11/18/2014)
Would you want aspects of your life, perhaps data outside of your health (think driving, finance, etc) to be part of the evaluation (or negotiation) process for your employment?
I'm not so sure it isn't already. My credit has been looked at by the last 3 employers I've had as a condition of an employment background check. And I have been asked during the interview process if I had a valid drivers license.
One might argue it is the industry I'm in (currently govt.) and the that my "driving record" was not thoroughly scrutinized by a simplistic question. However, a candidate with good qualifications having a bad credit rating with no drivers license at all could leave a black cloud on a hiring manager's evaluation process when compared to an OK candidate with good credit and a valid drivers license.
It is the time we live in.
Credit checks for employment should be illegal.
I'm pretty sure they are in the UK. Although I seem to remember a friend of mine had any debts paid off when he joined the police. The thinking being that if he had no debts he would be less likely to take bribes.
Credit checks for employment are not illegal in the US. What the employer does with the information is up to them. The reasoning is similar to what you describe with the police. They don't want someone working as a DBA who has $300K of unsecured gambling debt. I can't say as I blame them for that specific line of thinking, but having bad credit could have many reasons. It certainly doesn't make anyone a bad DBA or developer.
November 18, 2014 at 6:51 am
BWFC (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
cackalackian (11/18/2014)
Would you want aspects of your life, perhaps data outside of your health (think driving, finance, etc) to be part of the evaluation (or negotiation) process for your employment?
I'm not so sure it isn't already. My credit has been looked at by the last 3 employers I've had as a condition of an employment background check. And I have been asked during the interview process if I had a valid drivers license.
One might argue it is the industry I'm in (currently govt.) and the that my "driving record" was not thoroughly scrutinized by a simplistic question. However, a candidate with good qualifications having a bad credit rating with no drivers license at all could leave a black cloud on a hiring manager's evaluation process when compared to an OK candidate with good credit and a valid drivers license.
It is the time we live in.
Credit checks for employment should be illegal.
I'm pretty sure they are in the UK. Although I seem to remember a friend of mine had any debts paid off when he joined the police. The thinking being that if he had no debts he would be less likely to take bribes.
When as we all know there's little correlation. The people most likely to steal are those with opportunity and little oversight. And a particular mindset.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
November 18, 2014 at 6:56 am
I stand corrected. There are several companies that offer pre-employment credit checks over here. The thinking is to avoid the possible corruption. One company also phrases it in terms of 'if they can't manage their own money, they've no chance on managing yours'.
How to post a question to get the most help http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537
November 18, 2014 at 6:56 am
I don't disagree. Although, I do think it can depend on the job. In an ideal world, a person with access to financial data/transactions will have a balance of auditing and oversight to discourage wrong doing. But in the real world, what is ideal is not always reality. A person who's back is against a wall, for whatever reason, may (and has been) tempted to nefarious actions.
November 18, 2014 at 7:08 am
BWFC (11/18/2014)
Stefan Krzywicki (11/18/2014)
cackalackian (11/18/2014)
Would you want aspects of your life, perhaps data outside of your health (think driving, finance, etc) to be part of the evaluation (or negotiation) process for your employment?
I'm not so sure it isn't already. My credit has been looked at by the last 3 employers I've had as a condition of an employment background check. And I have been asked during the interview process if I had a valid drivers license.
One might argue it is the industry I'm in (currently govt.) and the that my "driving record" was not thoroughly scrutinized by a simplistic question. However, a candidate with good qualifications having a bad credit rating with no drivers license at all could leave a black cloud on a hiring manager's evaluation process when compared to an OK candidate with good credit and a valid drivers license.
It is the time we live in.
Credit checks for employment should be illegal.
I'm pretty sure they are in the UK. Although I seem to remember a friend of mine had any debts paid off when he joined the police. The thinking being that if he had no debts he would be less likely to take bribes.
BWFC has already corrected that it is totally legal to check this. It is standard for government agencies as there have been historical incidents of coercion through fiscal weakness (not always bribery, sometimes the opportunity for a "way out").
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
November 18, 2014 at 7:08 am
BWFC (11/18/2014)
I stand corrected. There are several companies that offer pre-employment credit checks over here. The thinking is to avoid the possible corruption. One company also phrases it in terms of 'if they can't manage their own money, they've no chance on managing yours'.
Not surprising that lots of bankers are heavily in debt then.
And what's to stop someone from gaining tons of debt after they have the job?
And at most that should only apply to people actually managing money. Why run a credit check on a DBA?
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
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