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What if TDE was available in Standard Edition? Expand / Collapse
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Posted Tuesday, July 6, 2010 4:57 PM
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I'm sure TDE will make it's way into lower versions - possibly even Express. Once Microsoft gets a whiff of 3rd parties (including their partners) muscling in on its turf they will cut them out faster than Steve Ballmer can say "Our stock price has dropped 10 cents". This has happened before, it will happen again. Just be patient.


James Stover, McDBA
Post #948239
Posted Tuesday, July 6, 2010 6:46 PM
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TravisDBA (7/6/2010)
I am talking about compressing the backup, not compressing the database then encrypting it,, But anyway, I don't remember seeing that anywhere in SQL 2008 BOL? That would be nice if that little important detail was in there, but what else is new. :)


SQL Server 2008 Books Online does specifically mention that, but don't let that get in the way of a good gripe.


"SQL Server 2008 Books Online (August 2008)
Understanding Transparent Data Encryption (TDE)
...
Encrypted data compresses significantly less than equivalent unencrypted data. If TDE is used to encrypt a database, backup compression will not be able to significantly compress the backup storage. Therefore, using TDE and backup compression together is not recommended.
..."


Post #948252
Posted Tuesday, July 6, 2010 7:10 PM


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Thanks, but I already know about backing up a encrypted database with compression has no effect on the compression, and that is in BOL, hence my first post. However, it was pointed out in a previous post by Jay that compressing the database first then encrypting as an alternative. Where is that in BOL?, Anyway, I still don't like the idea of Mickeysoft giving us two new neat features we basically can't use together. :)

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Posted Wednesday, July 7, 2010 1:09 AM
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Michael Valentine Jones (7/6/2010)

SQL Server 2008 Books Online does specifically mention that, but don't let that get in the way of a good gripe.


Oh that made me chuckle! I love that kind of humour :)
Post #948346
Posted Wednesday, July 7, 2010 6:26 AM
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TravisDBA (7/6/2010)
Thanks, but I already know about backing up a encrypted database with compression has no effect on the compression, and that is in BOL, hence my first post. However, it was pointed out in a previous post by Jay that compressing the database first then encrypting as an alternative. Where is that in BOL?, Anyway, I still don't like the idea of Mickeysoft giving us two new neat features we basically can't use together. :)


My comment was not based on BOL, it was based the on the mathematics of compression and encryption. Compression works on mapping repetitive patterns in data, once encyrpted almost all such patterns are lost


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Post #948482
Posted Wednesday, July 7, 2010 8:25 AM
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jay holovacs (7/7/2010)
TravisDBA (7/6/2010)
Thanks, but I already know about backing up a encrypted database with compression has no effect on the compression, and that is in BOL, hence my first post. However, it was pointed out in a previous post by Jay that compressing the database first then encrypting as an alternative. Where is that in BOL?, Anyway, I still don't like the idea of Mickeysoft giving us two new neat features we basically can't use together. :)


My comment was not based on BOL, it was based the on the mathematics of compression and encryption. Compression works on mapping repetitive patterns in data, once encyrpted almost all such patterns are lost


Which is why all normal encryption software that's built for this first compresses (which, as a desirable side effect, reduces repetitive patterns in the data), and then encrypts! See PGP and GPG software, or any of the compression+encryption softare (7-Zip, PKWare Zip, WinZip, etc.) which use this ordering.

If your DB is encrypted but not compressed, then clearly one should have the option to spend the CPU time to decrypt, then compress, and then encrypt the compressed data, thus giving the effects of both. Since SQL Server compression doesn't take a whole lot of CPU anyway, this shouldn't be an unusual option to consider.
Post #948577
Posted Wednesday, July 7, 2010 9:42 AM
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Has anyone implemented table compression in conjunction with TDE?

What was the impact of compression and TDE on database size, compared to a database with just TDE or just table compression?


It would be nice if there was a separate option on the backup command to encrypt the backup file, with or without compression. That would be a more useful option for most customers than TDE.



Post #948641
Posted Wednesday, July 7, 2010 4:12 PM


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Nadrek (7/7/2010)
jay holovacs (7/7/2010)
TravisDBA (7/6/2010)
Thanks, but I already know about backing up a encrypted database with compression has no effect on the compression, and that is in BOL, hence my first post. However, it was pointed out in a previous post by Jay that compressing the database first then encrypting as an alternative. Where is that in BOL?, Anyway, I still don't like the idea of Mickeysoft giving us two new neat features we basically can't use together. :)


My comment was not based on BOL, it was based the on the mathematics of compression and encryption. Compression works on mapping repetitive patterns in data, once encyrpted almost all such patterns are lost


Which is why all normal encryption software that's built for this first compresses (which, as a desirable side effect, reduces repetitive patterns in the data), and then encrypts! See PGP and GPG software, or any of the compression+encryption softare (7-Zip, PKWare Zip, WinZip, etc.) which use this ordering.

If your DB is encrypted but not compressed, then clearly one should have the option to spend the CPU time to decrypt, then compress, and then encrypt the compressed data, thus giving the effects of both. Since SQL Server compression doesn't take a whole lot of CPU anyway, this shouldn't be an unusual option to consider.



Exactly right Michael! My point is that Mickeysoft did not take time in the first place to consider this as others already do. If they had, then those two new features would have been able to be utilized together in the product, rather than separately. :)


"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ..."
Post #948895
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