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The March 2009 Car Update Expand / Collapse
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Posted Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:25 PM
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When I looked at the Civic Hybrid in 2004 (I think, maybe 2005) I found that the passenger's seat was very uncomfortable. The driver's seat was excellent but we were told there was no upgrad for the passenger's seat. Has that changed?


re: "Has that changed?" I'm not sure if you are asking if they now offer upgrades or if the passenger's seat is now more comfortable than it was in the past. I do not know the answer to either question.

I do think seat comfort is rather individual. I haven't heard anyone complain about my passenger seat, but then again, only one person has spent a whole lot of time (a multi-day car trip on vacation) in the passenger seat. My passenger never mentioned feeling any discomfort. I'm confident she would have if she had felt any.

That's all I can say on the topic. I've seen Civics around town that are newer than mine and it looks like some things have changed. Maybe it is time for another test drive.
Post #687503
Posted Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:31 PM


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JJ B (3/31/2009)

Example: I have a co-worker who a couple years ago bought an expensive, big gas guzzling SUV because she "likes the feel of it" and "feels safer in a bigger car". That decision was about feelings. Not about making smart choices for herself, let alone our society.

Of course, that's just my opinion.


And the fact she "likes the feel of it" and "feels safer in a bigger car" is a valid reason for a person making a decision in purchasing a vehicle. Would you want her to buy a car she DIDN'T feel safe in just because (fill in your reason here).

I can understand the need to feel safe in a vehicle. I have been rear-ended on the highway while at a full stop by a vehicle travelling 65+ mph. I have slammed a car into a ditch at 70+ mph because of blacking out while driving (by the way same car a year apart, Honda Civic; d*** good car saved my life twice). Would I get that same feeling from a mini like a co-worker of mine had while stationed in England in the late 70'/early 80's, NO. Would the mini be a better choice for a variety reasons, like gas milage, maybe.

Our problem is we all try to generalize everything without trying to get to know the real reasons why someone made the choice(s) they made.



Lynn Pettis

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Post #687506
Posted Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:40 PM
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Opps....my bad. My MOTORCYCLE gets 45mpg, my daughter's Yaris gets 32. Why do I know these things?? Because my 21 daughter lives with me and I've taught her the importance of watching her mpg to watch for car problems.

When compared to a 20mpg sedan or truck a Prius is cost effective. When compared to other similar gas-based cars, it is not. The estimated 5-year cost of a Prius is around 30K. The estimated 5-year cost of a Yaris sedan is around $25K. Interestingly enough, the savings in fuel is gobbled up by the increased insurance cost, so the out-of-pocket expenses are just about the same. Steve spent more money just so he could have more room, the savings statistics are bogus without a reference.
Post #687518
Posted Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:51 PM


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I'm not sure most people made bad choices. there are always some that made poor financial choices, but buying a larger car, or a less efficient car because you liked it/wanted it, isn't a bad choice. That person would have to determine that.

As a country have we made bad choices in cars? I'm not sure there either. The oil companies/government ensuring low cost of fuel has some blame there as well.

Should we be more green? I think so, but that's a choice that has to be made by each person, and influenced by the government with policies. Lots of SUVs/Hummers were purchased because of tax breaks for expensive "trucks"
Post #687529
Posted Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:53 PM
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And the fact she "likes the feel of it" and "feels safer in a bigger car" is a valid reason for a person making a decision in purchasing a vehicle.


I'll have to respectfully disagree with you here. "Feeling safer" is not the same thing as *being* safer. She was not faced with only two choices of giant and mini. She could have educated herself and learned to feel plenty safe with a different car that would have met many of her bigger needs much better.

And "likes the feel of it" is a valid primary reason for purchasing a car only if you do not take into account the bigger context/picture of our world.

I'm glad you are happy with your car. I'm sure it was the wisest decision you could make. Again, I'm not trying to put you down personally in any way. And I agree with you up to a point. I can't know the wisdom of every individual situation. At the same time, I can believe that humans in general can be most unwise, and that individuals are capable of making many bad decisions for themselves which also affect the larger society. (Where there too many commas in that last sentence?)
Post #687531
Posted Tuesday, March 31, 2009 3:54 PM
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jfox (3/31/2009)
My motorcycle gets 45...


I am surprised that is all you get. Must be a hog. (grin).

There's perspective for you.
Post #687532
Posted Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:16 PM
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I'm not sure most people made bad choices. there are always some that made poor financial choices, but buying a larger car, or a less efficient car because you liked it/wanted it, isn't a bad choice.


I'll say again that I would buy this argument only in a vacuum, where no other factors come into play. Sure we can buy things just because we want them without thought to any other factors. But if we do it too often without regard to other issues (for example whether or not we can afford the purchase), we run into individual and societal problems (think housing crises). The bigger picture is that we really had made a bad choice.

To explain my point: Say I love the feel of driving a luxury car. Say I want it so badly because (some sob story about never having luxury growing up and needing the space for bla bla, etc. etc so that everyone can understand why I made the decision I made). But if that luxury car:
...puts my family out of a home because it is so expensive (I'm just making a point) and
...kills all the baby fish and
...gives 30% of the kids in my town asthma and
...puts thousands of people out of work as major factories shut down, because I'm not the only one who decided to purchase a car type that has no future in the world,
...then I'm thinking it's a bad choice.

If I buy that luxury car, I didn't think about the context in which my decision was being made. The cons outweigh pros in the long run. I'm not saying there are no benefits/pros to making selfish, feel-good-in-the-moment decisions. I'm saying that the cons can be bigger than the pros and people can miss the bigger picture by only focusing on the pros and thus make bad decisions. I happen to feel that Americans in general (not naming anyone specifically) have made just these types of bad decisions - including say supporting a government who created tax breaks for giant trucks. Government of the people, by the people...

By the way. I'm including myself in this generic set of humans I'm condemning. I'm sure I have made plenty of bad decisions about many things. Just not my choice of car. (BIG GRIN!)
Post #687544
Posted Tuesday, March 31, 2009 4:24 PM


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JJ B (3/31/2009)
I'm not sure most people made bad choices. there are always some that made poor financial choices, but buying a larger car, or a less efficient car because you liked it/wanted it, isn't a bad choice.


I'll say again that I would buy this argument only in a vacuum, where no other factors come into play. Sure we can buy things just because we want them without thought to any other factors. But if we do it too often without regard to other issues (for example whether or not we can afford the purchase), we run into individual and societal problems (think housing crises). The bigger picture is that we really had made a bad choice.

To explain my point: Say I love the feel of driving a luxury car. Say I want it so badly because (some sob story about never having luxury growing up and needing the space for bla bla, etc. etc so that everyone can understand why I made the decision I made). But if that luxury car:
...puts my family out of a home because it is so expensive (I'm just making a point) and
...kills all the baby fish and
...gives 30% of the kids in my town asthma and
...puts thousands of people out of work as major factories shut down, because I'm not the only one who decided to purchase a car type that has no future in the world,
...then I'm thinking it's a bad choice.

If I buy that luxury car, I didn't think about the context in which my decision was being made. The cons outweigh pros in the long run. I'm not saying there are no benefits/pros to making selfish, feel-good-in-the-moment decisions. I'm saying that the cons can be bigger than the pros and people can miss the bigger picture by only focusing on the pros and thus make bad decisions. I happen to feel that Americans in general (not naming anyone specifically) have made just these types of bad decisions - including say supporting a government who created tax breaks for giant trucks. Government of the people, by the people...

By the way. I'm including myself in this generic set of humans I'm condemning. I'm sure I have made plenty of bad decisions about many things. Just not my choice of car. (BIG GRIN!)


I'm done. We are just going to have to agree to disagree.



Lynn Pettis

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Post #687547
Posted Tuesday, March 31, 2009 9:34 PM


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you're kind of assuming that purchasing that luxury car does those things. It's debatable to what extent that happens.

Humans do many short-sighted decisions. No doubt about that. I'm just not sure that someone purchasing an SUV or luxury car means that.
Post #687606
Posted Wednesday, April 01, 2009 5:25 AM
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Everyone these days seems to love to vilify the Hummer, but most people only know of it as the H1 military based vehicle that was made famous (and available to the public) by the Governor of California - who now, oddly, is a big critic of the Big 3. The Hummer H2 and H3 models are based on full size and mid size truck chassis, and do not get the horrible mileage with which they are attributed. And there are people that love them. My broker in DC drives one because he can carry his dirt bike on a rack on the back bumper for his weekend trips into western MD and WV. One of my neighbors gets worse mileage with his Lexus sedan than his son's Hummer H3.

There have been many comments in this thread about the 'bad choices' Americans make about their vehicles. Well isn't that what our FREE society is all about - making free choices? I can make thousands of judgement calls about what you spend your money on. Here's one for all of you that like to criticize the vehicles others drive: it's bad for society if you choose to perpetuate urban sprawl and live out in the suburbs so you have to commute long distances. I think if you have a commute longer than 10 or 15 minutes YOU have made a a BAD CHOICE for society. Double that if you live in a large house that has a big carbon footprint. It's not just cars that pollute you know...

BTW, I live 4 miles from work - when I'm not telecommuting. I drive a Dodge minivan in the winter, that according to the trip computer has an average of 19.5 mpg over the 20K miles that are on it. The summer car is a Corvette that gets 29 mpg cruising on the interstate.
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