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Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:35 PM
SSC-Addicted

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I am all about sharing knowledge and bettering others. HOWEVER! I am also extremely insulted when someone asks me to teach them how to do everything in a cliff's notes version. Why? It is INSULTING! We have spent many years learning and perfecting what we do. If there was the ability to provide an adequate Cliffs Notes version we wouldn't need to have DBA's. We recently rolled out a new SQL Server based product and our training group wants to give our installers enough knowledge to function with SQL. I like that. I don't like that they want me to summarize EVERYTHING i do into a 2 hour session because the Installer WILL NEED it. Give them enough to install the product and do the initial troubleshooting. There is a reason we have a support staff of DBAs at their beconned call.

The best thing my mentor did for me when i started was say 'Figure it out'. Seldom are all problems identical. If you take if then else approach at SQL Server troubleshooting you will limit yourself. You must treat each situation as a new dynamic living issue. I like the post earlier along the same lines. I also follow the Figure it Out yourself then we can discuss before you implement. It is a great teaching\learning process and yet safeguards the new person from failure.
Post #609383
Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:45 PM


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Robert,

I agree and I'm always happy to see people posting hints rather than complete solutions. Especially when people haven't made any attempt at it themselves.







Follow me on Twitter: @way0utwest

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Post #609388
Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:51 PM


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I served 4 years in the Country Club (aka USAF) as a computer operator, even graduated as an Honor Grad from tech school. It didn't truely prepare me for my first duty station, even though it did help me as I was qualified by my supervisor to work by my self after only 2 months when normal training time at a new duty site is 6 months.

This is what bugs people, I tell everyone that the first thing my supervisor did was to teach me to read. When ever we had a problem and I came to him, first thing he asked was "What does the manual say?". Then he started teaching me tricks of the trade that made me even better. He even taught me how to run our computer system without the SPO (Supervisory Printer Online - Burroughs B3500). Ours broke one night on second shift (the busiest for batch processing) and after calling the FE, he said we could sit and wait, or I could learn something. We ran that computer system for 3 hours using the card punch machine, the card reader, and the line printer. Shocked the FE when he came in to work on the SPO.

Sharing knowledge is great, but you have have to want to learn. Same thing happened shortly before I left England. The people I was working with at the time then, all they did was move the card punch in the computer room for me. The didn't care to learn how to keep things running.



Lynn Pettis

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Post #609391
Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 2:03 PM
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Good points.
I share your frustration when we seem to have to hunt endlessly for a post by somebody who has managed to resolve a problem that you now face. Far too often the answer is found elsewhere (not on MS's website).
Sometimes there are problems that we cannot resolve no matter how many things we try and ultimately can only be resolved by those who have access to the source code.
BOL is a treasure trove of information but I do sometimes find MS's documentation and proactiveness in helping to resolve common issues, somewhat wanting.
Post #609431
Posted Wednesday, November 26, 2008 3:10 PM


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I agree with Rob. I also find there is general lack of feedback from the people you help, I get lots of feed back here ;). But I have on other newsgroups, where you provide the solution and then you don’t hear back from the person if it helped or not for days on end.

I have helped people with SQL Questions, queries, and I always tell them in BOL if you go here and here you get the answer. What happens week later same person question again, they don't like to investigate it. So I end up helping them again, if I don't help them then I get labeled as "not being cooperative". So I end up taking the people through step-by-step on how to do something they should know how to do.

What makes it worse is when I see email later on from them to (upper management or clients) stating how issues were resolved by them. No recognition for your efforts or such, but if you didn’t help or didn’t step the person through the issues then it makes it up the chain and becomes entirely my fault.

I am very new to SQL DBA role, comparing to everyone here . About four years, but I always dig into BOL, news groups, Google to get the answer. To that end I also started blog’ing to keep it straight in my brain on how to do stuff in SQL or new things I learn. And keep the links to all Articles, posts by other people that show how to do stuff better then what I have seen or known.

So thanks again :)


---

Mohit K. Gupta, MCITP: Database Administrator (2005), My Blog, Twitter: @SQLCAN.
Microsoft FTE - SQL Server PFE

* Some time its the search that counts, not the finding...
* I didn't think so, but if I was wrong, I was wrong. I'd rather do something, and make a mistake than be frightened and be doing nothing.


How to ask for help .. Read Best Practices here.
Post #609476
Posted Thursday, November 27, 2008 3:39 AM


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Look, don't get me wrong here. I absolutely believe in learning the hard way because that is the things you will remember most. You look for help in BOL and you read up about a certain subject you are battling with but in the end it's just that critical point you are missing that you cannot find in the documentation. This is where a forum like SCC comes in. To all the newbies and rookies I'd like to say: "Read it up. Don't expect people to hold your hand because then you are not going to learn a thing".
To the professionals I want to say: "If you want to allow them to do it to you then it's your own fault. However, don't let somebody suffocate in their own blood. Sometimes they just need that extra little push to get going". I had a teacher that one day told me: "When you're an adult, never forget that you were also a child once." Let us not forget that we were newbies once.
:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)


Manie Verster
Developer
Johannesburg
South Africa

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Post #609654
Posted Thursday, November 27, 2008 6:55 AM


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And Jeff makes a good point too. Not enough of you guys get credit for posting knowledge...


Hear, hear. :)

But I think we all owe thanks to folks like Jeff and Steve...


Ditto :D

..... and don't forget ....

All hail Jeff, the SQL God



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Anon.

Post #609784
Posted Thursday, November 27, 2008 7:04 AM


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Manie Verster (11/27/2008)

To the professionals I want to say: "If you want to allow them to do it to you then it's your own fault. However, don't let somebody suffocate in their own blood. Sometimes they just need that extra little push to get going". I had a teacher that one day told me: "When you're an adult, never forget that you were also a child once." Let us not forget that we were newbies once.


Both good points, and in those cases I encourage people to come talk to me. I like it when people do their research and come talk to me about what they found. I think it shows that a) they are willing to learn b) they dont' mind asking for help. I don't even have problem with someone coming to ask for guidelines on where he should be looking, I like to say "I'll show you the path to the door bud, but you got to walk through it". What I was saying my eailer post was the type I don't like is do my work for me, because I am too busy to figure something new out. Or the other extreem (which is what I run into), I did my research I know what I am doing (enough to be dangerous), I'll just request a change like that. So when I tell them no, with my reasoning, most people are not happy.

Thats all, and I agree with your comments 100% Specially the "When you're ...", when I am in my Kendo (Japanese Martial art) I have to tell myself that all the time. Because some things come to me easier then they do other in class, but I been doing it for seven years :P.

Thanks Manie :).


---

Mohit K. Gupta, MCITP: Database Administrator (2005), My Blog, Twitter: @SQLCAN.
Microsoft FTE - SQL Server PFE

* Some time its the search that counts, not the finding...
* I didn't think so, but if I was wrong, I was wrong. I'd rather do something, and make a mistake than be frightened and be doing nothing.


How to ask for help .. Read Best Practices here.
Post #609794
Posted Thursday, November 27, 2008 9:49 AM


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G Bryant McClellan (11/25/2008)
Manie makes some very good points. I wish SQLServerCentral had been around in 1994 when I started working with SQL Server.

And Jeff makes a good point too. Not enough of you guys get credit for posting knowledge and wisdom on your own initiative without the thought of recompense. I know I come here because of the wealth of information represented by the membership. I can always find something interesting to read, frequently an answer to a question (whether or not I knew I had the question) and I can occasionally put my 2 cents in for some value.

But I think we all owe thanks to folks like Jeff and Steve and all the other experienced people who post information for the rest of us to make use of. Thanks, guys. You don't hear it often enough, but I believe you help more than you know. Just look at the number of members. That says something by itself.


Well thanks Bryant. I really appreciate that. I do it because I just like to see people's "lights" turn on. When I get a hearty "thanks", it makes my day.

Hmmmm... random thought... I wonder how many school teachers get that kind of thanks. They teach to see people's "lights" turn on, too, and they probably get it less than anyone on a forum.


--Jeff Moden
"RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for "Row-By-Agonizing-Row".

First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column."

(play on words) "Just because you CAN do something in T-SQL, doesn't mean you SHOULDN'T." --22 Aug 2013

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Post #609896
Posted Thursday, November 27, 2008 10:17 AM


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thisisfutile (11/25/2008)
Jeff Moden (11/25/2008)
...

Heh... then there's the "intelligent" ones that say things like "performance" doesn't matter and will argue for hours about it. The only reason why I continue in such a debate is because I don't want any newbies to think that performance doesn't matter.

...


In an effort to both edify a strong forum poster (Jeff) and to give kudos to a great forum (SSC), I'd like to quote Jeff and point everyone's attention to a post he just made (< 24hours ago...I think). It's toward the bottom, me quoting Jeff, quoting me, quoting Jeff (Post #608311). Both his professionalism and his conviction won me over to his side of the argument(http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic607292-1424-6.aspx).

In short, I agree with Manie that these forums, especially for fledgling DBA's like myself (title withheld for fear of seeing a dark side of Jeff that I haven't encountered yet. ;)), are indispensable.


Wow. Thanks for the great compliment and support!

Heh... yeah... I love it when two or more folks get engaged in good stong conversations with good code proofs and good examples. I've learned a huge amount from those especially if I can squeeze my way into the conversation. I love good proofs like that until someone reduces the dialog to ruble with name calling or feather fluffing like one of the folks has started doing on the very thread thisisfutile mentioned... it's so very hard to suppress the "dark side", then. But, in most cases, I go back to only that which is valuable... the proof is always in the code. :D


--Jeff Moden
"RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for "Row-By-Agonizing-Row".

First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column."

(play on words) "Just because you CAN do something in T-SQL, doesn't mean you SHOULDN'T." --22 Aug 2013

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to post performance problems
Post #609905
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