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Are the posted questions getting worse? Expand / Collapse
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Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2014 12:09 PM
Old Hand

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Grant Fritchey (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Grant Fritchey (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Its sort of a free market thing, if people decide that SO/SE isn't useful, it could go away. I'm hoping it sticks around because it is really useful in my opinion, its an awesome site with an incredible coverage of subject matter, I've gotten lots of information from their postings. But yes, if people want to hate on it, I need to let that happen too.


While I don't recommend going back and re-reading this insane thread, if you were to (again, don't bother), you'd find that we can be pretty self-critical at times as well. This thread has been used to call out bad behavior in general or even in particular to the people who occupy it. Are most of us the top posters on the site? Yeah. What's that worth? That and $3 will get you a cup of coffee. But we try hard to police the site to maintain a ourselves as one of the best places to go for information on SQL Server (not the only, and not the single best, one of, which includes SO).

Is there criticism of SO/SE at times? Yeah, but let's face it, SO/SE is not perfect. It's good. It can be useful. But it's not the be all and end all. I'd say the exact same thing about us. We're absolutely far from perfect. But we're good. We can be useful. But we're not the be all and end all.

Early in this discussion the people who posted some sophomoric comments (and I suspect everyone is guilty of this at one point or another, the gods know I am) about SO apologized, but you really seem to be carrying a torch on this one. I'm just not sure why. You can read back through all the quotes. In many places people have said that SO fills a need and does it well, but... Is it the "but" aspect that is carrying you so hard down this road. I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.

It doesn't need to be all that important that YOU folks acknowledge the usefulness, for all that matters its not even that important that I can come here and protest in favor of that site.

If you think its "carrying me so hard down this road", then maybe it IS important that I DO NOT come here and protest in favor of the site and thats fine. its a sore subject here, and certainly I don't need to come in here and ruin the watercooler for you guys.

These subjects are interesting to me, but they're not mandatory by any means.


I'm just trying to understand why it's so important to you personally that we acknowledge the usefulness of SO.

Thats really more like "why is it so important that Patrick chat at the water cooler" and you're right, I shouldn't be so invested in it.



Wow, no. That's not in any way what I was going for. Good gosh. This is an absolutely free and open forum. Debate and questioning aren't just welcomed, they're encouraged.

Then whats the problem with defending SO? When folks are bored with it, the topic will taper down as usual right? There's certainly valid criticisms out there, when folks drill down into topics thats typically a benefit. What I'm wondering is maybe the watercooler isn't where folks like this conversation to happen. I can tell that maybe you're troubled because the "scarey dba" is trying to be "extremely self-effacing and self-disparaging in" well.. any post. Why are you doing this, unless you'd either like the conversation to stop or you think you're somehow offending me?

You don't have to spare my feelings, thats fine. I am not accusing anyone of "personal attacks," by golly, and you are absolutely welcome to question my motivation, either from me or anyone else. All I'm simply mentioning is that maybe I err'ed in having this conversation at the watercooler, and I don't need to do this, while I'm happy to defend SO and call out Jason's poopy post, I can find a different hobby

I wasn't trying to call you out or take away your right to speak or anything like that.

I'm the one volunteering to shut up, you haven't demanded anything.

I was just trying to understand why it was important to you, because it sure seems to be.

And it is important to me, the site is clearly useful to me and others, and I should think we have the option to offer counterpoints to "the site is s#!+". Thus my replies, all I'm saying is that maybe I didn't need to defend SO, and especially here, and could have kept my feelings to myself on that one, not every topic that I feel strongly about needs to be replied to.
Post #1597890
Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2014 12:30 PM
Old Hand

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...
If its a fish, why are the solutions still working? Shouldn't they only have lasted the extent of a single meal?


Sorry to jump in at this late point, but I think that in large part depends on your definition of "working". Is a cursor going to work? Sure. Is it going to be the best solution? Probably not. (Emphasis on probably.) I drove my Pathfinder into the ground, but I certainly don't regret trading it in for a Prius. Continually learning the best way to achieve a task is essential to maintaining a good, long career. The cursor might work right now, but I've seen giving that answer in an interview cost people jobs.


I think thats a fair assessment. Its really up to SO on that one. I'm not even going to discount Seans original point except to point out that he probably wasn't the moderator on that one. As I said, if I would have answered, I would have added something like "... and watch for performance issues" or something brief. I guess folks want all or nothing, but given the benefits I get from SO, I'm not so inflexible.
Post #1597899
Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2014 12:30 PM


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Good grief, guys. Hey Patrick, welcome to "the Swamp", grab a martini if the still's running.

This debate is going for... four pages now? I personally don't care about SO. Occasionally they cough up something useful via google for a five year old thread and I haven't found the place inviting the few times I tried to head over there to participate. That works for me. I can start with what they answered and bring it over here for clarification and cleanup if I can't do it myself.

That about covers my opinion on the great sheep deb... errr... SO debate. However, one comment worth mentioning... Grant's actually a really nice guy. The Scary DBA bit is roughly equivalent to my evilness. I can be evil, but rarely. All of us here though know that words have a hard time conveying tone and intent, so he was being a bit overkill with his explanation to make sure he didn't come off improperly.

I however don't worry about that so much. You made a comment earlier that you hope certain people don't read our comments in here about them. There is a reason we use initials or descriptors instead of direct names. Well, except for Celko, may his internet personality burn, and I've told him as much directly.

If they know it's about them, well, maybe they'll learn. If they don't, no harm done, it's not like it's coming up via search engine. A bit of a vent and back into the maelstrom for us.

(Mostly) Everyone's welcome in the water cooler, and you wouldn't be getting this massive string of quote pyramids if there wasn't an interest in the debate amongst the people involved. The only real rule is leave code in another thread (gets real spammy in here otherwise). That you've opened a door to a different vent for some of the participants' frustrations with the site isn't necessarily an attempt to get you to go over there and burn your account. It's just their opinions and views.

On a completely different note:
Steve, I've noticed what seems a bit of a change in balance between tech articles and editorials lately, there appears (at first glance) a lot more editorials. Are you lacking in articles or are you simply trying to catch up after your sabbatical?



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Post #1597900
Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2014 12:31 PM


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Although I don't believe monitors should shut down the proverbial "teach a man to fish" type of responses, there are a large number of times that even a totally undocumented/no-writeup-included bit of example code can teach an incredible amount. Consider that a good portion of the people seeking an answer won't actually just use the code as a black-box solution. Many will do the due diligence thing and lookup the things used in the code and test, test, test.

On the other hand, there will be people who do use the code without any due diligence... and, in the long run, they'll get exactly what they deserve.

I can't fault SO because it's designed (like many such forums) for quick and dirty (sometimes more dirty that some of us would like) solutions. If someone doesn't like the purpose, format, or implementation of the forum, they should just stay away and find something that suits them better.


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Post #1597901
Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2014 12:33 PM


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patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)
Then whats the problem with defending SO?


I wasn't aware there was one. Someone offered an opinion. You disagreed. Others disagreed with you. Etc.

Where was anyone shutting you down or stopping debate? You keep implying that you've somehow been made... not sure what the right phrase is here, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or emotions in you, but... let's go with, unwelcome, because of the disagreement. Yet, what keeps happening is that people engage you on your points. No one has said, "Shut up" or even words to those effects. Seems like a pretty open discussion. Yes, people disagree with you, but hey, that happens, especially at the water cooler.. It seems like you keep taking disagreement with rejection. They're not the same.


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Post #1597903
Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2014 12:42 PM


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patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)

...
If its a fish, why are the solutions still working? Shouldn't they only have lasted the extent of a single meal?


Sorry to jump in at this late point, but I think that in large part depends on your definition of "working". Is a cursor going to work? Sure. Is it going to be the best solution? Probably not. (Emphasis on probably.) I drove my Pathfinder into the ground, but I certainly don't regret trading it in for a Prius. Continually learning the best way to achieve a task is essential to maintaining a good, long career. The cursor might work right now, but I've seen giving that answer in an interview cost people jobs.


I think thats a fair assessment. Its really up to SO on that one. I'm not even going to discount Seans original point except to point out that he probably wasn't the moderator on that one. As I said, if I would have answered, I would have added something like "... and watch for performance issues" or something brief. I guess folks want all or nothing, but given the benefits I get from SO, I'm not so inflexible.


I was not a moderator of that discussion. Obviously I find some usefulness out of that site or I would not have bothered to setup an account there. I have received countless "fish" from there. I thought it might be a good place to give back to the community at large by working on helping a few people learn to fish. I got shot down in flames by the community there. Then I came here and voiced my frustration that they don't want to learn over there. That is a difference of the two. No more, no less. In the future I won't bother to offer better solutions there, I will just point out that they may not be the best. If that person wants to learn how to do it better I will help them but I am not going to put as much effort into responses there as I do here.

I for one would prefer you stick around. You have a lot to offer and it is always good to have a different viewpoint on certain things. By all means don't let this discussion taint your perception of this site or the fine people who offer so much of the own time to keep it going.


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Post #1597910
Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:05 PM
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Evil Kraig F (7/30/2014)
Good grief, guys. Hey Patrick, welcome to "the Swamp", grab a martini if the still's running.

This debate is going for... four pages now? I personally don't care about SO. Occasionally they cough up something useful via google for a five year old thread and I haven't found the place inviting the few times I tried to head over there to participate. That works for me. I can start with what they answered and bring it over here for clarification and cleanup if I can't do it myself.


Yep, the debate really went on, thus my questioning of even replying it. It never hurts to check!

I however don't worry about that so much. You made a comment earlier that you hope certain people don't read our comments in here about them. There is a reason we use initials or descriptors instead of direct names. Well, except for Celko, may his internet personality burn, and I've told him as much directly.

This I did want to touch on, in every instance like that I've seen, I successfully identified the poster being discussed.
Post #1597919
Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:13 PM


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patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)

This I did want to touch on, in every instance like that I've seen, I successfully identified the poster being discussed.


If you're there at that moment, and the threads are active, yes, they're easier to determine. Wait a few days and you wouldn't know the difference when I'm venting about K the always right vs. K the incompetent.

If they have something to say, they're welcome to jump in and explain themselves if they do figure it out, either via PM or here. The point being there's a few hundred K's on the site, and our vents are unsearchable without context of time. Since the majority of people can't data mine the SSC forums efficiently, I'm not too worried about that.



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Post #1597924
Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:17 PM


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Evil Kraig F (7/30/2014)


If you're there at that moment, and the threads are active, yes, they're easier to determine. Wait a few days and you wouldn't know the difference when I'm venting about K the always right vs. K the incompetent.


You forgot K the Benevolent, K the Evil, K the GoldFish




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Post #1597926
Posted Wednesday, July 30, 2014 1:21 PM
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Evil Kraig F (7/30/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/30/2014)

This I did want to touch on, in every instance like that I've seen, I successfully identified the poster being discussed.


If you're there at that moment, and the threads are active, yes, they're easier to determine. Wait a few days and you wouldn't know the difference when I'm venting about K the always right vs. K the incompetent.

If they have something to say, they're welcome to jump in and explain themselves if they do figure it out, either via PM or here. The point being there's a few hundred K's on the site, and our vents are unsearchable without context of time. Since the majority of people can't data mine the SSC forums efficiently, I'm not too worried about that.


Just wished it didn't happen because of how easy they are to find, I'm certainly not "data mining" thats for sure.
Post #1597927
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