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Are the posted questions getting worse? Expand / Collapse
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Posted Monday, July 28, 2014 7:47 AM
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patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
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But the BS around rep just sucks.


That might be where the word "Overflow" comes from.


So they named it stack overflow because it is really just Diarrhea?

The last time I checked out stack overflow, it was just that. Maybe it got better since then, but I don't use it for anything so I wouldn't know.


I like Stack Overflow, they've done a great job, I've lost count over the answers I've gotten there. I'm not saying they're perfect, but the amount of loathing they get from you guys is just not proportionate to any actual problems over there that I can see, so I'm wondering what the real deal is? Did they treat some of you in a manner that was determined to be below your expectations or something? Not fawn over the 5 digit SSC rep or something?


They are some pretty arrogant mods over there. Topics get closed too soon and the manner on which newbies are told their questions are not up to standards by some people over there... No, thank you.


Its not perfect, and they've posted time and again on the purposes of their site, and for whatever reason they get the answers people are looking for, and there is no denying the success. I'm not going to deny your reasoning here, but it doesn't gel with the degree of loathing I'm witnessing, so I'm just wondering whats up? Did one of you 5 digit'ers get inordinately spanked over there and come back to rally the troops into a hatefest or something? Thats sort of my working theory.



I don't think anybody around here gets into a hatefest.

I'm looking at the replies in this very post. Diarrhea? Yes, probably "good natured fun" as probably seen by the threadizens, but from the outside looking in, SSC hates SO's enormous success and without knowing more, it looks "sour grapey," or alternatively, they're disrespecting your SSC ranking (which for petes sake would be even worse LOL).

If anything it is probably my fault because I started the discussion. What I don't like about it is that people take an answer as gospel and are not willing to discuss it.

They're not a discussion site, and I think I'm more like you, it probably would be nicer to discuss, and I think in your case if you'd have answered the cursor question first, and then said "then watch for performance issues as cursors on SQL Server are notoriously slow" or something along those lines, it may have fit better.

Furthermore I don't like the general attitude that helping people learn is not what they are about.

I'm actually more on SO's side here, in most topics tutorials would kill them.

In general it seems that they want you to stick to the question instead of helping the person find an alternative. My discussion started here because I got berated for suggesting that somebody get rid of a cursor. The question asked how to write the cursor. In my standard type of response I suggested they don't need a cursor for what they were trying to do and I would help them find a set based alternative. I was told that my response was off topic because the question asked how to make the cursor work. To me, that is the wrong way to approach answering technical questions. Sure an answer is helpful but teaching a better way to do the same thing is far better in my opinion.

I'm not objecting to this except to whatever degree noting SO's policy takes it. But it doesn't explain the degree of loathing I witness here.




Several years ago, I was looking for the best site for SQL Server discussion and I settled here. I assessed Stack Overflow before I found this thread and formed my own opinion without any help. I don't hate Stack Overflow or anything...I just find it doesn't have what this site has. IMO, the people here make the biggest difference.



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Post #1596869
Posted Monday, July 28, 2014 7:48 AM


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patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Sean Lange (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
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patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Ed Wagner (7/28/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/27/2014)
Jeff Moden (7/26/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/26/2014)
But the BS around rep just sucks.


That might be where the word "Overflow" comes from.


So they named it stack overflow because it is really just Diarrhea?

The last time I checked out stack overflow, it was just that. Maybe it got better since then, but I don't use it for anything so I wouldn't know.


I like Stack Overflow, they've done a great job, I've lost count over the answers I've gotten there. I'm not saying they're perfect, but the amount of loathing they get from you guys is just not proportionate to any actual problems over there that I can see, so I'm wondering what the real deal is? Did they treat some of you in a manner that was determined to be below your expectations or something? Not fawn over the 5 digit SSC rep or something?


They are some pretty arrogant mods over there. Topics get closed too soon and the manner on which newbies are told their questions are not up to standards by some people over there... No, thank you.


Its not perfect, and they've posted time and again on the purposes of their site, and for whatever reason they get the answers people are looking for, and there is no denying the success. I'm not going to deny your reasoning here, but it doesn't gel with the degree of loathing I'm witnessing, so I'm just wondering whats up? Did one of you 5 digit'ers get inordinately spanked over there and come back to rally the troops into a hatefest or something? Thats sort of my working theory.



I don't think anybody around here gets into a hatefest.

I'm looking at the replies in this very post. Diarrhea? Yes, probably "good natured fun" as probably seen by the threadizens, but from the outside looking in, SSC hates SO's enormous success and without knowing more, it looks "sour grapey," or alternatively, they're disrespecting your SSC ranking (which for petes sake would be even worse LOL).

If anything it is probably my fault because I started the discussion. What I don't like about it is that people take an answer as gospel and are not willing to discuss it.

They're not a discussion site, and I think I'm more like you, it probably would be nicer to discuss, and I think in your case if you'd have answered the cursor question first, and then said "then watch for performance issues as cursors on SQL Server are notoriously slow" or something along those lines, it may have fit better.

Furthermore I don't like the general attitude that helping people learn is not what they are about.

I'm actually more on SO's side here, in most topics tutorials would kill them.

In general it seems that they want you to stick to the question instead of helping the person find an alternative. My discussion started here because I got berated for suggesting that somebody get rid of a cursor. The question asked how to write the cursor. In my standard type of response I suggested they don't need a cursor for what they were trying to do and I would help them find a set based alternative. I was told that my response was off topic because the question asked how to make the cursor work. To me, that is the wrong way to approach answering technical questions. Sure an answer is helpful but teaching a better way to do the same thing is far better in my opinion.

I'm not objecting to this except to whatever degree noting SO's policy takes it. But it doesn't explain the degree of loathing I witness here.






Personally, I haven't visited SO so I have no dog in this fight. Now SSC started AskSSC which is similar to SO, and though I have visited it in the past I stopped, for the same reason many seem to be bashing SO. The lack of discussion, teaching someone a better way to accomplish a task rather than perpetuating inefficient methods of doing those tasks. The real goal for many of us here is to help those starting in this field to be able to replace us eventually. That means making sure that the knowledge we possess is passed on to the next generation of SQL Server DBAs, Developers, Architects, etc. That won't happen if we just stick to the question.



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Post #1596871
Posted Monday, July 28, 2014 7:54 AM


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Getting the account balance temporarily wrong isn't a big deal, that is what the end of day reconciliation is for. And an overdraft from an account is far more likely to occur because two ATMs are being used at once than because of a uncommitted read from a database.


He might have a point here, isn't that what folks talk about regarding partitioned mode? Granted, he doesn't take into consideration page splits but that was also mentioned in the thread, so folks are covering the topic at least.



I would completely disagree here. I have real world experience here that directly contradicts this. Getting the balance correct to the penny real-time is critical when it comes to plastic cards. I saw overdraft charges in the hundreds weekly because of littering a financial application with NOLOCK. In a system with lots of activity this is not a rare thing, it is real and it happens a lot more than many people think. You can't settle a card rejection at the end of the day when the person trying to make a purchase has just been denied. Talk about some pissed off people.


His point is that getting balances correct to the penny is what reconciliations are for, and he has a point, because number one, reconciliations ARE going to get the funds, and number two, folks with plastic are legally obligated for their charges (as opposed to for instance that related bitcoin thread, folks are not tied to an anonymous account, and reconciliations don't do squat in that case).

I remember getting zapped by this, because I did two small transactions on my card, and then a third larger that overdrafted my account. The bank happily processed the third first and was able to hit me with 3 overdrafts despite applying the transactions out of chronological order (date/time) because they applied it ordered by amount descending, because its their business and I had legitimately overdrafted the account. So in my opinion, the guy is reporting reality.


I am talking about balances in the other direction. Sure in your case you were held responsible because you had three transactions that were approved which took over the limit. I am talking about the other direction when a transaction is denied because of insufficient funds caused by dirty reads.

The situation I worked with was health care debit cards and this type of thing happened. We denied prescription coverage when the account had enough funds. You can imagine how hostile things got when transactions are denied but there are enough funds to cover it.


Ordering by amount rather than chronological order is designed to create the maximum overdraft charges for the customer.
Not sure of how things truly work behind the scenes, but it could be something like how transactions are batched.
Transactions can be batched on either or both ends, so when you actually initiated the charges might not be how they are seen by the CC.

The dirty read example - denied when funds are there - is a good example of the mud hole you can end up in.
To me, the most accurate reflection of the truth does not include dirty reads.
Any time you send out a report, and the numbers change, it invites questioning the data.
Even without dirty reads, held records pending approval, returns, etc. can create plenty of questions.

We had commissions, where a sale often occurred in one fiscal month, and could have been returned up to a month later.
Nothing worse than having to ask someone to give back some money.
At least we started with a 90 day return window, and were able to tighten it to 30 days.
The only thing that I could see eliminating this would be no returns, or commissions delayed.
Neither would be acceptable to the Sales Rep, so it was the best we could do.

Life is usually sometimes picking the best compromise.
From a position you feel you can defend.
Post #1596878
Posted Monday, July 28, 2014 7:55 AM


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patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
I'm looking at the replies in this very post. Diarrhea? Yes, probably "good natured fun" as probably seen by the threadizens, but from the outside looking in, SSC hates SO's enormous success and without knowing more, it looks "sour grapey," or alternatively, they're disrespecting your SSC ranking (which for petes sake would be even worse LOL).


Yes good natured fun that was spawned by me. As far as ranking I couldn't care less. I have posted a lot over the years. That has earned me a lot of points on here, and possibly some sort of respect based on that. I like to think that any respect for my skills are a result of those skills and not some arbitrary point system.


I think in your case if you'd have answered the cursor question first, and then said "then watch for performance issues as cursors on SQL Server are notoriously slow" or something along those lines, it may have fit better.


This to me sounds like the entirely wrong approach. You are suggesting that I should spend my time showing them how to write a cursor just so I can then spend more time to show them how not to use one? I am NOT going to teach somebody coding techniques that need to be changed just because they asked how to do it. That to me is not how a good mentoring system should work. I don't like the notion that the point of answering questions is to horde as many points as you can. The idea should be to help people learn and become better. That has been my approach here at SSC. I guess that is not how SO works.


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Post #1596881
Posted Monday, July 28, 2014 8:00 AM


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Just to be clear, I have no hatred for Stack Overflow. It provides a huge service to the community. This whole thing started about the "BS around rep" thing and I couldn't agree more. Of course, that kind of ring-knocking occurs on every site, not just Stack Overflow.

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Post #1596884
Posted Monday, July 28, 2014 9:00 AM


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patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Ed Wagner (7/28/2014)
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Jeff Moden (7/26/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/26/2014)
But the BS around rep just sucks.


That might be where the word "Overflow" comes from.


So they named it stack overflow because it is really just Diarrhea?

The last time I checked out stack overflow, it was just that. Maybe it got better since then, but I don't use it for anything so I wouldn't know.


I like Stack Overflow, they've done a great job, I've lost count over the answers I've gotten there. I'm not saying they're perfect, but the amount of loathing they get from you guys is just not proportionate to any actual problems over there that I can see, so I'm wondering what the real deal is? Did they treat some of you in a manner that was determined to be below your expectations or something? Not fawn over the 5 digit SSC rep or something?


Glad you like SO.

I have seen roughly 50% of the answers to be wrong over there. You can't fix that unless you have asked a question. Why ask a question just to get rep? All that says is the rep is a game to play.

Rep is worthless. SSC points are worthless and I could really care less about that stuff because it doesn't translate to anything for anybody else.

But why take this to the personal attack level? I didn't see anybody attack you personally or directly. People reading the series of entries should be able to understand that it is good natured fun. If that is not obvious enough, then I apologize for the word assimilation.




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Post #1596907
Posted Monday, July 28, 2014 9:03 AM
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Sean Lange (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
I'm looking at the replies in this very post. Diarrhea? Yes, probably "good natured fun" as probably seen by the threadizens, but from the outside looking in, SSC hates SO's enormous success and without knowing more, it looks "sour grapey," or alternatively, they're disrespecting your SSC ranking (which for petes sake would be even worse LOL).


Yes good natured fun that was spawned by me. As far as ranking I couldn't care less. I have posted a lot over the years. That has earned me a lot of points on here, and possibly some sort of respect based on that. I like to think that any respect for my skills are a result of those skills and not some arbitrary point system.


I think in your case if you'd have answered the cursor question first, and then said "then watch for performance issues as cursors on SQL Server are notoriously slow" or something along those lines, it may have fit better.


This to me sounds like the entirely wrong approach. You are suggesting that I should spend my time showing them how to write a cursor just so I can then spend more time to show them how not to use one? I am NOT going to teach somebody coding techniques that need to be changed just because they asked how to do it. That to me is not how a good mentoring system should work. I don't like the notion that the point of answering questions is to horde as many points as you can. The idea should be to help people learn and become better. That has been my approach here at SSC. I guess that is not how SO works.


The points actually work pretty well. Its a form of crowdsourcing, where the points come as a result of others posting their opinions about your presense on a site. SSC on the other hand generates its only rating based on the users own actions, thats why it takes manual admin intervention to remove spam attacks, and you also could get the occasional high rated users who are otherwise social malcontents who really need the boot out of here, and this is where peer ratings help. I agree that other artifacts can take place with point systems like SO but as long as you aren't actually doing spam attacks and are otherwise just participating in a socially acceptable manner, the points don't really affect you too much, its when they're really needed like in the case of actually hostile actions is when the lack of them really makes it apparent.

As far as cursors and RBAR goes, you have a valid point, on the other hand, there is no shortage of info regarding cursor performance out there.
Post #1596909
Posted Monday, July 28, 2014 9:15 AM
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Jeff Moden (7/26/2014)
SQLRNNR (7/26/2014)
But the BS around rep just sucks.


That might be where the word "Overflow" comes from.


So they named it stack overflow because it is really just Diarrhea?

The last time I checked out stack overflow, it was just that. Maybe it got better since then, but I don't use it for anything so I wouldn't know.


I like Stack Overflow, they've done a great job, I've lost count over the answers I've gotten there. I'm not saying they're perfect, but the amount of loathing they get from you guys is just not proportionate to any actual problems over there that I can see, so I'm wondering what the real deal is? Did they treat some of you in a manner that was determined to be below your expectations or something? Not fawn over the 5 digit SSC rep or something?


Glad you like SO.

I have seen roughly 50% of the answers to be wrong over there. You can't fix that unless you have asked a question. Why ask a question just to get rep? All that says is the rep is a game to play.

Rep is worthless. SSC points are worthless and I could really care less about that stuff because it doesn't translate to anything for anybody else.

But why take this to the personal attack level? I didn't see anybody attack you personally or directly. People reading the series of entries should be able to understand that it is good natured fun. If that is not obvious enough, then I apologize for the word assimilation.


Good grief, the ol "personal attack" meme again. Thats fine, have at it.
Post #1596917
Posted Monday, July 28, 2014 9:16 AM


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Sean Lange (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)


I think in your case if you'd have answered the cursor question first, and then said "then watch for performance issues as cursors on SQL Server are notoriously slow" or something along those lines, it may have fit better.


This to me sounds like the entirely wrong approach. You are suggesting that I should spend my time showing them how to write a cursor just so I can then spend more time to show them how not to use one? I am NOT going to teach somebody coding techniques that need to be changed just because they asked how to do it. That to me is not how a good mentoring system should work. I don't like the notion that the point of answering questions is to horde as many points as you can. The idea should be to help people learn and become better. That has been my approach here at SSC. I guess that is not how SO works.


I agree with that sentiment.

If all it is about is the rep and just answering a question, then the person can find the answer in BOL just as easily as posting a question to SO or SSC. But if you can add a discussion and teach them, then that is the better route.




Jason AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
I have given a name to my pain...
MCM SQL Server


SQL RNNR

Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw
Posting Data Etiquette - Jeff Moden
Hidden RBAR - Jeff Moden
VLFs and the Tran Log - Kimberly Tripp
Post #1596918
Posted Monday, July 28, 2014 9:40 AM


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patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
Sean Lange (7/28/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (7/28/2014)
I'm looking at the replies in this very post. Diarrhea? Yes, probably "good natured fun" as probably seen by the threadizens, but from the outside looking in, SSC hates SO's enormous success and without knowing more, it looks "sour grapey," or alternatively, they're disrespecting your SSC ranking (which for petes sake would be even worse LOL).


Yes good natured fun that was spawned by me. As far as ranking I couldn't care less. I have posted a lot over the years. That has earned me a lot of points on here, and possibly some sort of respect based on that. I like to think that any respect for my skills are a result of those skills and not some arbitrary point system.


I think in your case if you'd have answered the cursor question first, and then said "then watch for performance issues as cursors on SQL Server are notoriously slow" or something along those lines, it may have fit better.


This to me sounds like the entirely wrong approach. You are suggesting that I should spend my time showing them how to write a cursor just so I can then spend more time to show them how not to use one? I am NOT going to teach somebody coding techniques that need to be changed just because they asked how to do it. That to me is not how a good mentoring system should work. I don't like the notion that the point of answering questions is to horde as many points as you can. The idea should be to help people learn and become better. That has been my approach here at SSC. I guess that is not how SO works.


The points actually work pretty well. Its a form of crowdsourcing, where the points come as a result of others posting their opinions about your presense on a site. SSC on the other hand generates its only rating based on the users own actions, thats why it takes manual admin intervention to remove spam attacks, and you also could get the occasional high rated users who are otherwise social malcontents who really need the boot out of here, and this is where peer ratings help. I agree that other artifacts can take place with point systems like SO but as long as you aren't actually doing spam attacks and are otherwise just participating in a socially acceptable manner, the points don't really affect you too much, its when they're really needed like in the case of actually hostile actions is when the lack of them really makes it apparent.

As far as cursors and RBAR goes, you have a valid point, on the other hand, there is no shortage of info regarding cursor performance out there.


Well, I think SSC is one of the most professional SQL Server sites this community has and we usually do a very good job of self-policing ourselves in an effort to keep it that way. Even the best of us sometimes fall and need to be held accountable for what we say and do on this site. Been there, had it done. The system usually works quite well.



Lynn Pettis

For better assistance in answering your questions, click here
For tips to get better help with Performance Problems, click here
For Running Totals and its variations, click here or when working with partitioned tables
For more about Tally Tables, click here
For more about Cross Tabs and Pivots, click here and here
Managing Transaction Logs

SQL Musings from the Desert Fountain Valley SQL (My Mirror Blog)
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