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Are the posted questions getting worse? Expand / Collapse
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Posted Wednesday, May 22, 2013 3:21 PM
Old Hand

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L' Eomot Inversé (5/15/2013)
I've seen a lot of ranting about how the different UI in Windows 8 makes it very difficult for someone used to older versions of Windows to use it, so I'd been wondering whether to use Windows 7 for my next laptop.

I was in the UK (where it's easy to buy decent machines - not ay all like here) for a few days recently and my ancient laptop needed replacing. To start with it's XP-based, so unable to install SQL Server 2012, and the manufacturer won't provide a BIOS for Windows Vista, let alone for Windows 7 or 8; on top of that the hard disc is much too small and too finicky to replace, it overheats now and again, it takes for ever to reboot - and half of forever to shut down; the battery is kaput - about 65 seconds life from fully charged to no power at all, and it is rather slow.

Anyway, I decided to bite the bullet and jump from XP to Windows 8 - why start of with Windows 7 when it is clearly obsolescent, and anyway there are better deals available with Windows 8 than with Windows 7.

Now can someone tell me what all the fuss is about? Please? I just don't understand what the difficulties are, in fact I suspect they were unreal problems dreamt up by bone-headed old dinosaurs who have forgotten how to adapt to new things. It's a nice slick interface, easily usable with a mouse and actually slightly more useable with a finger pad than XP is. Installing stuff is a lot less painful than XP (actually that's been true ever since Vista and knew about it because I set up my wife's system with Vista many years ago) because there's no need to go through the slow and overweight switch user dialogue to get the privileges needed for the install. The help is pretty good. It takes maybe 5 or 10 minutes for someone definitely XP-based like me to be up and running without problems.

I also switched from Office XP (or maybe Office 2003 - I can't remember which I installed all those years ago) to Office 2013; I remember all the screams about Office UI changes years ago, and again I can't see what all the fuss was about - the UI is different, some of the changes are improvements and some are not. Also from Mozilla (with Gàidhlig UI) to IE 10 (with US English UI) because IE 10 is supposedly more secure, and find that a pain (wrong language, plus I miss the detailed control over what sites can use client side JS or VBS).

So far I hit only four real problems, none of which appears to be a Windows 8 issue.
1) I forgot to check which edition of Office 2013 had what in it, discovered that the edition I had acquired didn't include Outlook, so bought Outlook form MS online. Installing it on top of Office H&S was an out-and-out pain; it hangs horribly in mid-install - just stops doing things, and at this point it has deleted Word; apparently this is an extremely common problem; telling it to uninstall Office H&S then results in the expected error - can't uninstall until the previous office install has either completed or rolled back. Of course Outlook isn't on the list of programs that can be uninstalled. But it's an MS install error; reboot and try again and if that gives the same result as before, reboot again and ask it to repair the office installation, then forget about it for an hour or two (while connected to internet and logged into MS account, but using the machine for something else - eg copying files over from old machine via nasty slow pen drives or reading stuff from SQLServerCentral). That worked.
2) Configuring Outlook is still as much of a pain as it always was, just a different pain; a long time ago I did it gradually over weeks and weeks - just fixing things (like international fonts, default encodings, keyboard shortcuts for special characters, killing off the preview pane, what happens when the current open message is deleted, and so on) as and when they annoyed me (and having to hunt through help documentation and/or MSDN to do it) and I guess I will go through the same slow and irritating process again; the UI changes don't make any difference here, as it's not stuff I'm the least bit interested in remembering and even if the UI hadn't changed I would have forgotten how to do it by now.
3) Getting files from the old machine to the new machine is a pain - it takes the old machine an inordinate amount of time to copy stiff to a pen drive; USB 1 is so slow.
4) SQLServer 2012 Developer Edition is not available from MS online store in Europe. I guess I will have to download the evaluation edition instead, and hope MS have made developer edition available this side of the pond before that expires.

Anyway, I reckon Windows 8 is super. I can install both 32-bit (eg PasswordSafe, MS Office - why does MS recommend always installing that as 32-bit?) and 64-bit (some games) software and it all runs well and a lot faster than it would on similar hardware under XP (either the path length bloat has been reduced or Windows 8 handles parallelism better than xp did), I can do most things from the desktop that I want to do from the desktop, control panel, command window, admin tools, and all that stuff are easily started and aren't much different from before, task manager is much improved compared with XP, and so on. None of the difficulties people have claimed make converting from earlier versions of Windows are real.

Toms post. I will be here all night folks!
Post #1455732
Posted Wednesday, May 22, 2013 3:27 PM


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Sigh... I don't know if I want to jump in here or not.

For the record, I can see both sides of this discussion. I can see how both Patrick and Tom (and others) could be offended and how they could feel that their own comments were not offensive*. Would I have personally taken offense by some of the comments? Yes, I think I would have on some of them. But looking back, I can also see how the offense may not have been intended. I think it was Brandie that pointed out that it's tough to pick out the voice and body language here, which could have made all the difference. It's really easy to read something and misinterpret it. Easy to take something personally. Easy to assume we know exactly what was meant, and yet still be wrong. I do it all the time even when I'm standing in front of the person and _have_ body language and voice to help.

Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but I hope that this ends with all of us laughing, shaking our head and calling the other party crazy for what they think of Windows 8, but still slapping backs and going to dinner together.

No, I'm not going to tell you what I think about Windows 8.

Chad

*Note: I really do feel this way, I'm not just saying it to try and cool people off (although I hope it helps). I know sometimes it seems like there is only one way to interpret a comment, but often that is not the case. I did feel that some of the comments (I'm not saying whose or which) were offensive, but I can also see how the person making them could have felt they were not offensive.
Post #1455734
Posted Wednesday, May 22, 2013 3:34 PM


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Grant Fritchey (5/22/2013)
Hey Steve, which apps. I'm just curious. I moved to a WP last fall and with one exception, I've found it better than my Droid. The exception is the Swype data entry. God that was nice on a phone.


Password Safe didn't have a port
My teleprompter app

There were a couple more. None that I couldn't move off, but I didn't want to for the password app and the teleprompter for sure. I've had some issues with teleprompters and didn't want to go down the route of investigating a bunch of others.







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Post #1455737
Posted Wednesday, May 22, 2013 3:36 PM


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Sean Lange (5/22/2013)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (5/21/2013)
Grant has a Surface RT. However Sean said "For the Touch I do not have the newer version of the OS. I have the older and much less expensive version."

I am curious if I'm forgetting some older MS product.


No it is my brain that is the issue. I was referring to the Surface.

Whew, thought it was me.

RT or Pro?







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Post #1455738
Posted Wednesday, May 22, 2013 3:47 PM


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GilaMonster (5/22/2013)
Oh look... "I don't think that's right... " again. Anyone got a baseball bat? Or a punching bag?


Will an Arkansas tire thumper work?


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Post #1455739
Posted Wednesday, May 22, 2013 3:50 PM


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Steve Jones - SSC Editor (5/22/2013)
Sean Lange (5/22/2013)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (5/21/2013)
Grant has a Surface RT. However Sean said "For the Touch I do not have the newer version of the OS. I have the older and much less expensive version."

I am curious if I'm forgetting some older MS product.


No it is my brain that is the issue. I was referring to the Surface.

Whew, thought it was me.

RT or Pro?


I've only got the RT. I'd love to pick up a Pro, but I'm officially cut off from buying new toys by Mrs. Scary.

I had a hard time finding a good teleprompter app for the droid. I'll have to start looking for the WP or the Surface. But I can see why that would stop you. And the password thing. I've gone through three different password apps this year.


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Post #1455740
Posted Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:09 PM


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Grant Fritchey (5/22/2013)
GilaMonster (5/22/2013)
Oh look... "I don't think that's right... " again. Anyone got a baseball bat? Or a punching bag?


Will an Arkansas tire thumper work?


No idea what one of those is, but I like the idea.



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Post #1455748
Posted Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:20 PM


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GilaMonster (5/22/2013)
Grant Fritchey (5/22/2013)
GilaMonster (5/22/2013)
Oh look... "I don't think that's right... " again. Anyone got a baseball bat? Or a punching bag?


Will an Arkansas tire thumper work?


No idea what one of those is, but I like the idea.


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Post #1455749
Posted Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:42 PM


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patrickmcginnis59 10839 (5/22/2013)
Lynn Pettis (5/22/2013)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (5/22/2013)
Lynn Pettis (5/22/2013)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (5/22/2013)
Brandie Tarvin (5/22/2013)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (5/21/2013)
L' Eomot Inversé (5/21/2013)

In response to Patrick, it would have better phrased something like "There is a lot of discussion of this on the web. Have you not seen anything that indicates what the problems are?" which seems very much less like a snide remark.

,,, after typing in this very thread ...

Now can someone tell me what all the fuss is about? Please? I just don't understand what the difficulties are, in fact I suspect they were unreal problems dreamt up by bone-headed old dinosaurs who have forgotten how to adapt to new things.

Seriously?


The difference being that his dinosaurs comment came across as a generic reference and was not directed specificially at anyone in this thread. Whereas your comment was specifically directed at him and made about him.

What you're saying is that I was perfectly welcome to avoid mentioning my disapproval of the product so as to avoid his wide sweeping and exaggerated characterization of anybody who deems to have a complaint, right?


I didn't read Tom's post that way you did, but I did read your post the same way Brandie did.

There is nothing wrong with you expressing your disapproval of the product, but put it that way and don't personally attack someone else while doing it.

I found that I disagreed with his post, and felt it took no consideration of what I and others have complainted about. I suggested a reason for it, ie., he doesn't browse the web much. Its up to him to convince me that I'm mistaken, IF HE FEELS THE NEED.

I DID bring up his characterization of me and others as being "bone-headed old dinosaurs" as an illustration of how selectively you guys are in your characterisation of posts.


Pulling this quote out:


Now can someone tell me what all the fuss is about? Please? I just don't understand what the difficulties are, in fact I suspect they were unreal problems dreamt up by bone-headed old dinosaurs who have forgotten how to adapt to new things.


I read this as a simple generalization and not something directed at you personally, unlike your post which was obviously directed at Tom.

I did indeed address Tom directly. I offered my theory that he has not read the complaints about 8. And its been a fairly common news item. Obviously the other characterization was that he dismissed all of us 8 detracters as bone headed dinosaurs, but I felt free to leave that out until Brandy started with the "attack" meme. I then referenced it as an example of dueling standards.

The fun part of all this is that I can't seem to find the original post in which Tom was supposed to have made this comment, nor do I see any any posts from which this comment may have been deleted.

http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic604325-61-3970.aspx#bm1453093


Well, then you will be interested to hear that I haven't heard all the complaints about Windows 8 either. Unfortunately, none of your posts ever really enlightened me on the supposed problems. Plus, I tend to ignore the hype choosing instead to make my own decisions on whether or not a product is good or bad as I too feel that all we usually hear are the very vocal minority. Most people who like a product tend not to get vocal about it.

One thing I learned in a Marketing class many years ago. If someone has a good experience with a product or company they tell 3 people. On the other hand, if you have had a bad experience with a product or company you tell 11 people. You are much more likely to hear about bad experiences than good.





Lynn Pettis

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Post #1455752
Posted Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:54 PM
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Lynn Pettis (5/22/2013)

One thing I learned in a Marketing class many years ago. If someone has a good experience with a product or company they tell 3 people. On the other hand, if you have had a bad experience with a product or company you tell 11 people. You are much more likely to hear about bad experiences than good.


That's probably why there was no so much noice about new version of iOS - iOS6.

Well, actually there was, mainly about its Maps.
And guess what - they turned out to be really s..ty. To such extend that Apple themselves recommended to use Google Maps instead.

So, may be that "vocal minority" is not that wrong after all...
Post #1455756
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