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Are the posted questions getting worse? Expand / Collapse
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Posted Wednesday, May 15, 2013 9:01 AM


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So my thought was, as near as I can remember:

I do think the idea of having a separate OS view tablets makes sense. However Microsoft's insistence on trying to make the interface and interactions the same between a desktop and a tablet is a poor decision.







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Post #1453162
Posted Wednesday, May 15, 2013 9:06 AM


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Steve Jones - SSC Editor (5/15/2013)
So my thought was, as near as I can remember:

I do think the idea of having a separate OS view tablets makes sense. However Microsoft's insistence on trying to make the interface and interactions the same between a desktop and a tablet is a poor decision.


Agreed.




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Post #1453166
Posted Wednesday, May 15, 2013 9:11 AM
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Stefan Krzywicki (5/15/2013)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (5/15/2013)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (5/15/2013)

Now can someone tell me what all the fuss is about? Please?

Not a big web user eh? Its not like people haven't been discussing this to death.

I think with Start8 and maybe some more gadgets , Windows 8 would probably regain a UI that I like, but I'm personally shocked that a scrappy little company like that could eat Microsoft's lunch on this. I suspect Microsoft has some serious problems going on with leadership and have run out of cluebats.

I can learn my way around 8, but it sure isn't nice and easy to use like 7. Obviously I'm not looking for touch right now, I'm not the only one, using touch in a desktop environment is tiresome because you have to hold your arm up and it causes fatigue.

My feeling is that Microsoft is trying to "force" the new UI for reasons that don't involve end user satisfaction, and thats much of the sentiment I'm getting from others complaining. Interestingly enough, when I started using Unity I felt resentful that there was another UI to learn just like 8, but I quickly became comfortable with it in minutes, whereas Windows 8's irritation factor doesn't seem to be decreasing for me like it did with Unity.

I think you can dismiss the significant proportion of detractors however you like, but you'll have a hard time convincing me that there aren't real issues with this release.


Heres another take, with some more info on utilities like start8. What amazes me is that Microsoft didn't simply do what start8 did and just sidestep all the awful press they received on this, this is even beyond some of the silliness we are used to seeing from big corporate culture. This release makes Microsoft look really bad, which is a real shame because start8 just showed how quickly many of the windows 8 complaints could have been addressed and THEY AREN'T THE MAKERS OF THE OS. Microsoft needs to be on their toes bigtime right now, and instead they looked incredibly out of "touch" (LOL) with this release.

Windows 8 is one of the biggest blunders I've seen from Microsoft.


Really? Are you not old enough to remember Microsoft Bob?

Oh yeah, Bob! That one was silly, but it wasn't an upgrade path at all. If Microsoft had tossed out Metro the same way, they would have been golden. I think they do need to be working on touch because its an important area obviously, but LOL @ 8 !

The hated Clippy?

http://helpmerick.com/disable-or-change-clippy.htm
C'mon now, wheres my rightclick fix my desktop?

The insistence that the web isn't a big deal?

Did that one even matter? I was on the net with win 3.1 for petes sake. And Microsoft gained a reputation on that one for "turning on a dime" with internet explorer, etc, they took a step back and a leap forward. Hoping for another one with Windows blue.

Windows Me? The refusal to comply with the European court order about decoupling IE from Windows that cost them a ton of money?

Now theres some good ones. Vista too. LOL Me was a regularily scheduled reinstall.

Heck, people don't even seem as upset about Windows 8 as they were about Vista. I don't think either 8 or Vista was all that bad really.

Like I had mentioned earlier I know there exists a percentage of users that like 8. Like I also alluded to, I'm surprised people wonder what all the fuss is about, because its not like this hasn't been blaring in editorials and web posts ever since the release candidates hit.
Post #1453171
Posted Wednesday, May 15, 2013 9:38 AM
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Steve Jones - SSC Editor (5/15/2013)
L' Eomot Inversé (5/15/2013)
I've seen a lot of ranting about how the different UI in Windows 8 makes it very difficult for someone used to older versions of Windows to use it, so I'd been wondering whether to use Windows 7 for my next laptop.
...
Now can someone tell me what all the fuss is about? Please? I just don't understand what the difficulties are, in fact I suspect they were unreal problems dreamt up by bone-headed old dinosaurs who have forgotten how to adapt to new things. It's a nice slick interface, easily usable with a mouse and actually slightly more useable with a finger pad than XP is. Installing stuff is a lot less painful than XP (actually that's been true ever since Vista and knew about it because I set up my wife's system with Vista many years ago) because there's no need to go through the slow and overweight switch user dialogue to get the privileges needed for the install. The help is pretty good. It takes maybe 5 or 10 minutes for someone definitely XP-based like me to be up and running without problems.


I don't think there is a reason for that much fuss. The Windows Key works as before if you ever typed the name of a program.

One of the best functions of your typical windows install is that it creates a clickable method for starting a program. I'm having difficulty believing that resorting to what are effectively command line installs and launches are the saving grace for a new graphical working environment.

That's the biggest adjustment. If you pin things to the task bar, and stick with "old style" windows apps, it functions exactly like Win 7.

Well it doesn't for me, and I'm not the only one. I don't want to dissuade you from ignoring the complaints if thats what you're comfortable with. But you do run editorials on current events in IT occasionally, and, while strictly an opinion from the peanut gallery of course, I could find reasons to recommend against pretending that there is not a loud blaring noise from the failtrain out there.

The complaints over the start menu are, IMHO, overblown, though I'm not sure why there was a need to remove the old style menu and Start button.

The whole point isn't how the complaints are overblown, the whole point here is that the complaints are getting attached to the Microsoft brand. They're relentless and eating away at Microsoft at the exact time that we're determining how the shift in computing pans out.

Just think of how your characterization would pan out during a marketting meeting at Redmond for instance, wouldn't it sound like "gosh those customers and their reasons for not buying our product are just being irrational, whats the matter with them????" I'm going to hazard a guess that this is probably not the conversation they're having.

Look at the difference with Apple, they are much more measured in which changes migrate to the desktop and which don't. I'm even acknowleging this and I've never personally purchased an Apple product.

There are some inconsistencies in the way things are handled. Modern apps v old style apps are in different task bars, updates in different places, but mostly it's an incomplete merge of the two ways of working and it will be years and versions before this gets sorted out. Ultimately I think Microsoft's idea of moving away from a desktop to a more "app" model like on phones isn't well suited to the way lots of people work on a desktop machine. Great for tablets and phones, not so great for content creation, development, and some types of work.

If its years and versions, thats going to be tough. This is not the time to plod along like that, especially with the glaring demonstration by startdock guys that the changes to the base product can be made by a relatively small team in comparison to Microsoft's resources.

I don't think Stardock ate Microsoft's lunch. MS made a decision, and in hindsight, it seems not only to be a poor one, but also not executed on completely.

The best reasoning I saw out there said that if you budget for a windows 8 desktop, budget for stardock as well. I think Microsoft could consider purchasing that company, clearly they could use the fresh thinking, pragmatism and ability to make desktops useable. I'm not saying something like Metro doesn't need to be done, but the desktop is still a reality for lots of folks out there.
Post #1453188
Posted Wednesday, May 15, 2013 9:48 AM
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patrickmcginnis59 10839 (5/15/2013)
Stefan Krzywicki (5/15/2013)
Really? Are you not old enough to remember Microsoft Bob?

Oh yeah, Bob! That one was silly, but it wasn't an upgrade path at all. If Microsoft had tossed out Metro the same way, they would have been golden. I think they do need to be working on touch because its an important area obviously, but LOL @ 8 !

You said "worst blunder" not "worst upgrade path". Bob was an embarrassment to Microsoft and deservedly so.

The hated Clippy?

http://helpmerick.com/disable-or-change-clippy.htm
C'mon now, wheres my rightclick fix my desktop?

That would be switching over to the Windows 7 interface.

The insistence that the web isn't a big deal?

Did that one even matter? I was on the net with win 3.1 for petes sake. And Microsoft gained a reputation on that one for "turning on a dime" with internet explorer, etc, they took a step back and a leap forward. Hoping for another one with Windows blue.

Oh yes. It wasn't exactly "turning on a dime." Windows spent quite awhile downplaying the importance of the web and had to really scramble to catch back up. People didn't like the early versions of IE. Half the reason Microsoft integrated IE into Windows was because they weren't able to win the browser wars any other way.


Windows Me? The refusal to comply with the European court order about decoupling IE from Windows that cost them a ton of money?

Now theres some good ones. Vista too. LOL Me was a regularily scheduled reinstall.

Heck, people don't even seem as upset about Windows 8 as they were about Vista. I don't think either 8 or Vista was all that bad really.

Like I had mentioned earlier I know there exists a percentage of users that like 8. Like I also alluded to, I'm surprised people wonder what all the fuss is about, because its not like this hasn't been blaring in editorials and web posts ever since the release candidates hit.

I wonder what all the fuss is about just like I did for Vista and you appear to for Clippy. Editorials and web posts are because people love to complain and hate change. Is there a real problem with it? Not that I can see. They've provided the ability to use 7, they've provided the ability to use a keyboard only. It is a new upgrade, people will get used to it. If not, Software is like New England weather, if you don't like it, wait a few minutes.


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Post #1453195
Posted Wednesday, May 15, 2013 10:24 AM


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Patrick,

I'm not saying you should change or not complain. There are valid reasons to complain. I'm saying the complaints are overblown, and I'm not sure how many of them are really "most of the people". It's some people that are loudly complaining about the issues are not necessarily representative of the billion people using the platform. It seems to be techies and developers complaining the most. Not that their complaints aren't valid, or they should change the way they work, but they aren't "right". They have an opinion, and I can see why they complain, but it the loudness of the complaints seems out of proportion to the actual thing being complained about.

I suspect the complaints are going to hurt the MS brand. I'm OK with that. Either MS will respond, as they did in 92 when they said this "internet thing" was overblown, or they won't. I don't need MS to dominate the way they have in the past, and in fact, I don't think they will. I also think that having 2, 3, or more choices about how to work make sense. Some people love the Windows Phone stuff, and the touch screen OS enhancements in Win 8. Some don't.

I'd actually prefer that we had multiple choices because we all don't work the same way.

Is the start menu hard to use? After trying and comparing it to the menu navigation, I'm starting to think they both suck, but we got used to one of them.







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Post #1453218
Posted Wednesday, May 15, 2013 10:36 AM
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Stefan Krzywicki (5/15/2013)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (5/15/2013)
Stefan Krzywicki (5/15/2013)
Really? Are you not old enough to remember Microsoft Bob?

Oh yeah, Bob! That one was silly, but it wasn't an upgrade path at all. If Microsoft had tossed out Metro the same way, they would have been golden. I think they do need to be working on touch because its an important area obviously, but LOL @ 8 !

You said "worst blunder" not "worst upgrade path". Bob was an embarrassment to Microsoft and deservedly so.

The hated Clippy?

http://helpmerick.com/disable-or-change-clippy.htm
C'mon now, wheres my rightclick fix my desktop?

That would be switching over to the Windows 7 interface.

C'mon now, you can't tell me to switch over to the windows 7 interface without telling me how to reactivate (?) the start menu that isn't the metro desktop.


The insistence that the web isn't a big deal?

Did that one even matter? I was on the net with win 3.1 for petes sake. And Microsoft gained a reputation on that one for "turning on a dime" with internet explorer, etc, they took a step back and a leap forward. Hoping for another one with Windows blue.

Oh yes. It wasn't exactly "turning on a dime." Windows spent quite awhile downplaying the importance of the web and had to really scramble to catch back up. People didn't like the early versions of IE. Half the reason Microsoft integrated IE into Windows was because they weren't able to win the browser wars any other way.

The thing is, I personally didn't characterize Microsoft's adoption of the web as "turning on a dime", I simply quote others characterizations of how well Microsoft made their late entry a non issue. Yes it actually took time, but this characterization I used did not originate with me.



Windows Me? The refusal to comply with the European court order about decoupling IE from Windows that cost them a ton of money?

Now theres some good ones. Vista too. LOL Me was a regularily scheduled reinstall.

Heck, people don't even seem as upset about Windows 8 as they were about Vista. I don't think either 8 or Vista was all that bad really.


Yeah, I too have seen favorable reviews of Vista, just like I've seen favorable reviews of Windows 8. I've acknowleged this, so I'm not arguing the point that there is not a measurable percentage of folks who like the product. Heck, I think there are folks who like Windows smart phones.

Like I had mentioned earlier I know there exists a percentage of users that like 8. Like I also alluded to, I'm surprised people wonder what all the fuss is about, because its not like this hasn't been blaring in editorials and web posts ever since the release candidates hit.

I wonder what all the fuss is about just like I did for Vista and you appear to for Clippy. Editorials and web posts are because people love to complain and hate change. Is there a real problem with it? Not that I can see. They've provided the ability to use 7, they've provided the ability to use a keyboard only. It is a new upgrade, people will get used to it. If not, Software is like New England weather, if you don't like it, wait a few minutes.


Like I mentioned, Stardock fixed everything, but why couldn't Microsoft do exactly that? This would have pretty much made Windows 8 a normal release with the benefit of indeed getting Metro out there without causing all this reluctance on the desktop upgrades. As Steve has mentioned, Windows 8 actually has some great improvements, but they're getting relentlessly overshadowed by the UI mess.
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Posted Wednesday, May 15, 2013 11:21 AM
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patrickmcginnis59 10839 (5/15/2013)C'mon now, you can't tell me to switch over to the windows 7 interface without telling me how to reactivate (?) the start menu that isn't the metro desktop.


Me? Nope. But that's not my thing. I don't use Windows 8. Maybe you can, IDK. That's not really the point though, in both cases users complained like it was the end of the world. Few went to different products though.

The thing is, I personally didn't characterize Microsoft's adoption of the web as "turning on a dime", I simply quote others characterizations of how well Microsoft made their late entry a non issue. Yes it actually took time, but this characterization I used did not originate with me.


Sure, plenty of people have filters on their memory. At the time, their non-entry was huge and their reaction has caused them legal troubles for decades.

Like I mentioned, Stardock fixed everything, but why couldn't Microsoft do exactly that? This would have pretty much made Windows 8 a normal release with the benefit of indeed getting Metro out there without causing all this reluctance on the desktop upgrades. As Steve has mentioned, Windows 8 actually has some great improvements, but they're getting relentlessly overshadowed by the UI mess.


For the same reason Adobe is pushing their idiotic move to a cloud-based subscription service. A lot of what both companies want to do requires buy-in from the user base. Microsoft thinks it knows the way the wind is blowing and wants to have its sails up properly. They're still burned by Netscape, the iPod (Zune), Google (Bing), the iPhone and every other time a competitor has gotten in front of them, they want to lead the way and in all those cases and more, they've been playing catch-up and rarely do. The only reason IE caught up was illegal market manipulation.

I think they've lost sight of how they got to be world-beaters in the first place: Adopt late, but improve relentlessly until your product is better. They did this with all their Office products and arguably with SQL Server.


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Posted Wednesday, May 15, 2013 11:31 AM
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patrickmcginnis59 10839 (5/15/2013)The whole point isn't how the complaints are overblown, the whole point here is that the complaints are getting attached to the Microsoft brand. They're relentless and eating away at Microsoft at the exact time that we're determining how the shift in computing pans out.


I've been using Microsoft products since their early days and I really can't remember a time when people weren't complaining about them. In an "end of the world" way too. It is amazing they've managed to struggle along.

Look at the difference with Apple, they are much more measured in which changes migrate to the desktop and which don't. I'm even acknowleging this and I've never personally purchased an Apple product.


And yet Apple nearly went out of business in the late 90s until Microsoft invested in them.

If its years and versions, thats going to be tough. This is not the time to plod along like that, especially with the glaring demonstration by startdock guys that the changes to the base product can be made by a relatively small team in comparison to Microsoft's resources.


Sure, but that's a mod to an existing product. Microsoft clearly could do this, but that's not what they want to do. They don't want to make people comfortable, they want to lead the way. Maybe a good idea, maybe not, but it is the kind of thing you have to commit to.

The best reasoning I saw out there said that if you budget for a windows 8 desktop, budget for stardock as well. I think Microsoft could consider purchasing that company, clearly they could use the fresh thinking, pragmatism and ability to make desktops useable.


Buying a smaller company to get their tech works. Buying it to get corporate culture/fresh thinking, etc... just about never does.


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When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
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It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
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Posted Wednesday, May 15, 2013 11:36 AM
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L' Eomot Inversé (5/15/2013)
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We're all fungible.


Not me! I used anti-fungis cream.


Does that mean you're not a fun guy?


Right. I'm more of a tree really.


Binary or balanced?


Decisionduous.


On that note, I'm going for coneheadiferous.

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