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I'm sick of poor third-party software performance Expand / Collapse
Are you tired of complaints/requests from end users wanting you to fix poorly-performing third-party software?
Poll ResultsVotes
Yes...I can't take it anymore!!!
 
27.78%
5
No...I love solving problems!
 
33.33%
6
Don't care...there'll always be poorly-performing third-party software.
 
38.89%
7
Member Votes: 16, Anonymous Votes: 0. You don't have permission to vote within this poll.
Author
Message
Posted Thursday, December 13, 2007 1:51 AM


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Jeff, may I send that to my boss?

I've got a meeting with my boss on Monday. Will see what comes out of it. If it's OK, I'll drop you a PM later with some thoughts and details. I don't want to take too much about my company here. A number of my colleagues read this site (at my urging)



Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008, MVP
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability

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Post #432699
Posted Thursday, December 13, 2007 4:42 AM
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I have to reply to this post. Yes, I am tired of poorly built 3rd party applications too. For years our IT department didn't have any say in the purchase of software. Now, we are starting to get control but in the mean time are stuck with some bad stuff. Some products not only have poor architecture, but poor code and poor security. The sad thing is that the users and management blame SQL Server and expect me to work magic. Sorry, but a toad will always be a toad


Post #432759
Posted Thursday, December 13, 2007 6:22 AM


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Jeff, may I send that to my boss?

Sure... in fact, I'm honored . But, I would be very careful and I'd possibly do a bit of editing... the term "boss" indicates some form of "management" and they don't take too kindly to being sucker punched with such words as "knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing" or "management borders on the fringes of absolute ignorance". You have to have a very special, frank, and highly trusted/earned relationship with your bosses where they value what you think and do much more highly than your occasional conversational indescretion...

... be careful, Gail... such words can put you in the soup line literally overnight.


--Jeff Moden
"RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for "Row-By-Agonizing-Row".

First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column."

(play on words) "Just because you CAN do something in T-SQL, doesn't mean you SHOULDN'T." --22 Aug 2013

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to post performance problems
Post #432798
Posted Thursday, December 13, 2007 6:45 AM


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Linda Johanning (12/13/2007)
I have to reply to this post. Yes, I am tired of poorly built 3rd party applications too. For years our IT department didn't have any say in the purchase of software. Now, we are starting to get control but in the mean time are stuck with some bad stuff. Some products not only have poor architecture, but poor code and poor security. The sad thing is that the users and management blame SQL Server and expect me to work magic. Sorry, but a toad will always be a toad


Ah! I have such products in-house, as well. And, strangely enough, they form a source of unity in our group much as a "common enemy" will cause usually disparate groups to unite in a time of war. They also provide a tremendous source of "opportunity to shine" especially if their code is "open source" like it typically is in SQL Server. Matt Miller hit the nail on the head in his message above where he said...

"There have been times where I've found myself "isolating" them 3rd party products, and starting to cut off its various features to replace them with ones I've written that will actually work without killing a dedicated server."

What an incredible opportunity. Think of it this way... it's impossible to show your worth by correcting a blank piece of paper. Now, that would truly be magic if you could.

Embrace the challenge... start telling managment how you improved the 3rd party software... start getting them used to the idea that you and your team can do better than that and that they'll no longer be held-up at gunpoint by the 3rd party vendor when a change or new feature must be added. After several successes like that, they'll start coming to you and your group for good solutions instead of buying untested, performance challenged 3rd party crap. But, ya gotta trick 'em... you have to "Let them see it your way"... if you try to force them, they'll dig in. And, you have to be really, really careful... that "3rd party POS", as Matt called it, may have been the "brain-child purchase" of that management... you may be dealing with more ego than you know. ;)


--Jeff Moden
"RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for "Row-By-Agonizing-Row".

First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column."

(play on words) "Just because you CAN do something in T-SQL, doesn't mean you SHOULDN'T." --22 Aug 2013

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to post performance problems
Post #432810
Posted Thursday, December 13, 2007 7:37 AM


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Jeff Moden (12/13/2007)
[quote][b] And, you have to be really, really careful... that "3rd party POS", as Matt called it, may have been the "brain-child purchase" of that management... you may be dealing with more ego than you know. ;)


Or in my case, they were in bed with the developer. As in - LITERALLY in bed with the developer (and no - I don't know what happened first - the business relationship or the romantic/sexual one)....Now there's a lesson in diplomacy if I've ever had one......

Nothing quite like having a developer "with benefits"....


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
Post #432841
Posted Thursday, December 13, 2007 10:27 AM


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Jeff Moden (12/13/2007)
Jeff, may I send that to my boss?

Sure... in fact, I'm honored .


Replied via PM. I don't want to hog this thread any more than I have



Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008, MVP
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability

We walk in the dark places no others will enter
We stand on the bridge and no one may pass

Post #432971
Posted Saturday, December 15, 2007 8:59 AM


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Unfortunately, 3rd-party apps will only get worse, and MS has to share the blame. Check out this article "SQL Server '08 Adds Dev Perks" from the December 1, 2007 issue of Redmond Developer News:

[url=http://reddevnews.com/news/devnews/article.aspx?editorialsid=878][/url]

The article relates a conversation with Francois Ajenstat, director of SQL Server project management (emphasis added):

"Ajenstat says Microsoft will ship updated bits to ensure that the ADO.NET Entity Framework, which should be complete with this database, will be synchronized in Visual Studio 2008. Microsoft last year pulled the framework from Visual Studio and made the database the delivery vehicle instead, sparking some concern.

"A successful implementation of this framework would enable developers to program using objects rather than lines of code. Developers don't necessarily know how the data in the store is structured or how the tables were built. Now they won't need to, Ajenstat says."

So according to MS, the app devs don't need to know anything about the database.
Post #433675
Posted Saturday, December 15, 2007 12:01 PM


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...the app devs don't need to know anything about the database.


Heh... from where I sit, most of them never did, so no real change. ;)


--Jeff Moden
"RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for "Row-By-Agonizing-Row".

First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column."

(play on words) "Just because you CAN do something in T-SQL, doesn't mean you SHOULDN'T." --22 Aug 2013

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to post performance problems
Post #433693
Posted Sunday, December 16, 2007 5:27 AM


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WILLIAM MITCHELL (12/15/2007)

So according to MS, the app devs don't need to know anything about the database.


Personally, I'd rather they didn't, and asked people who do to write them the DB objects they need. In my experience, it's the people who know a little about databases that are the most dangerous. (Heard from a senior C# developer: "You have to put the NOT NULL check first in the where clause" )

The article's talking about LINQ and Entity Framework. I've looked into them a bit from the developer side. If they're implemented properly, they won't cause problems. The big issue I see is that all the examples that MS have published, show it been implemented the 'wrong' way.



Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008, MVP
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability

We walk in the dark places no others will enter
We stand on the bridge and no one may pass

Post #433737
Posted Monday, December 17, 2007 4:02 PM


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Matt Miller (12/13/2007)
....Now there's a lesson in diplomacy if I've ever had one......
Not to mention a nice lesson in ethics.


It is always nice to be reminded that whatever problem we have with management or anything beyond what we work on, someone else has been through the same thing.

As Jeff said:
No, no... the rant is understood and appreciated.
I would add expected. I think if we can't vent our frustrations to someone that knows where we are coming from, we would explode.



Ian.

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-- Winston Churchill
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