Better Training

  • Comments posted to this topic are about the item Better Training

  • I have a degree in computer science. For about 95%, it did not learn me anything practical that I still use today.

    The basics of SQL of course and a little bit of project/software management, that's about it. That's university I guess, a lot of theory and not enough practice. Anyway, it did teach me analytical skills and all of the math is nice too. It will come in handy when helping with my kids homework 😀

    Need an answer? No, you need a question
    My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
    MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP

  • Koen Verbeeck (5/13/2014)


    I have a degree in computer science. For about 95%, it did not learn me anything practical that I still use today.

    The basics of SQL of course and a little bit of project/software management, that's about it. That's university I guess, a lot of theory and not enough practice. Anyway, it did teach me analytical skills and all of the math is nice too. It will come in handy when helping with my kids homework 😀

    I can't help it. English is probably your second or even your third language but...it did not teach me (not "learn me").

    I am really sorry and it is totally pedantic but there is a major problem with 1st language English speakers getting this wrong so they might see this as an example of it being OK.

    Sorry everyone. Back to the debate...

    Gaz

    -- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!

  • Gary Varga (5/13/2014)


    Koen Verbeeck (5/13/2014)


    I have a degree in computer science. For about 95%, it did not learn me anything practical that I still use today.

    The basics of SQL of course and a little bit of project/software management, that's about it. That's university I guess, a lot of theory and not enough practice. Anyway, it did teach me analytical skills and all of the math is nice too. It will come in handy when helping with my kids homework 😀

    I can't help it. English is probably your second or even your third language but...it did not teach me (not "learn me").

    Officially it is my 3rd language 😉

    (but I speak it better than my second language, which is French)

    Need an answer? No, you need a question
    My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
    MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP

  • I think that the problem is twofold:

    1) Graduates with Computer Science degrees have little understanding of applying what they have been taught in the real world.

    2) Non-Computer Science graduates (both non-graduates and graduates of non-computing degrees) never learn the theory.

    For the first issue, I have recently been discussing graduates becoming involved in an open source project to assist in code maintenance activities such as analysing faults, debugging and dealing with other peoples code (or ones own months later). The general consensus was that undergraduates would probably get the best experience on an internal, controlled project as opposed to a live, open one as otherwise we are likely to see another Heartbleed and/or tarnished reputations for either the educational institute and/or the student before their career has even started. That would be additional and unnecessary pressure.

    The second issue requires encouragement and incentives for those without the training to do this. In the UK we have Continuous Professional Development (CPD). It may be called the same elsewhere and probably did originate elsewhere. This requires the acknowledgement that this is an area for an individual to develop. There are FREE university modules available now so cost of training is not an excuse. It is up to individuals and their employers to agree a shared commitment towards this.

    PS Koen rocks!!!

    Gaz

    -- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!

  • I do think there should be a safe environment where students can learn the theory without being overly concerned about practicalities - this could be the first year of the degree. More practical exposure after that would ensure that students are not intimidated by real things and doing real work - while the theory continues.

    I guess here there is a problem with what the practical stuff might be - Java, .Net, T-SQL, Ruby on Rails, something less directly practical? My understanding is that Java is most common on undergrad courses, .Net is felt to be more sullied and 'vocational'. Still, as long as they stay away from PHP and Perl...

  • [Apologies, accidental double post]

  • I've been lucky enough to land in the world of business intelligence with no prior experience other than asking my now colleagues if they could make or change reports to provide the business I was working in with more relevant information. This means that I'm constantly on the hunt for training, whether leading to Microsoft Certification or otherwise. I know that Gary has certainly provided me with some useful advice about UK based courses and finally the company has said that they'll pay for some formal training. The big question is of course, how much will they pay? Up to now though, short of some basic 'this is a SELECT statement', 'this is GROUP BY', at the beginning, I've taught myself. Every day I'm gaining valuable experience but I'd definitely like to have something on paper, whether it's a Microsoft cert, a college course or a company's proprietary BI certificate.

    Corrected grammar


    On two occasions I have been asked, "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
    —Charles Babbage, Passages from the Life of a Philosopher

    How to post a question to get the most help http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537

  • I definitely think that would be a good step towards improving competency.

    The older professions certainly do that - medicine, accountancy, teaching, trades of all sorts… I guess its because our discipline is relatively young in comparison.

    I m pretty sure there are various education establishments that will run courses for people on day release - I think it is probably more unusual though. More genarally in the UK I believet students are recommended to do things like summer vocational placement. Very much left up to the motivated students though.

  • BWFC (5/13/2014)


    I've been lucky enough to land in the world of business intelligence with no prior experience other than asking my now colleagues if they could make or change reports to provide the business I was working in with more relevant information. This means that I'm constantly on the hunt for training, whether leading to Microsoft Certification or otherwise. I know that Gary has certainly provided me with some useful advice about UK based courses and finally the company has said that they'll pay for some formal training. The big question is of course, how much will they pay? Up to now though, short of some basic 'this is a SELECT statement', 'this is GROUP BY', at the beginning, I've taught myself. Every day I'm gaining valuable experience but I'd definitely like to have something on paper, whether it's a Microsoft cert, a college course or a company's proprietary BI certificate.

    Corrected grammar

    Have you seen https://www.coursera.org/course/db ?

    Gaz

    -- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!

  • Gary Varga (5/13/2014)


    BWFC (5/13/2014)


    I've been lucky enough to land in the world of business intelligence with no prior experience other than asking my now colleagues if they could make or change reports to provide the business I was working in with more relevant information. This means that I'm constantly on the hunt for training, whether leading to Microsoft Certification or otherwise. I know that Gary has certainly provided me with some useful advice about UK based courses and finally the company has said that they'll pay for some formal training. The big question is of course, how much will they pay? Up to now though, short of some basic 'this is a SELECT statement', 'this is GROUP BY', at the beginning, I've taught myself. Every day I'm gaining valuable experience but I'd definitely like to have something on paper, whether it's a Microsoft cert, a college course or a company's proprietary BI certificate.

    Corrected grammar

    Have you seen https://www.coursera.org/course/db ?

    I hadn't, that looks very good. It looks like the kind of course that although very informative, the company would be loath to pay for because the content is not massively relevant to what we do. I've signed myself up though because in my opinion you can't know enough. Thanks once again.

    There's a couple of BI courses run in Manchester that my colleague and I have asked to go on. They've been passed up the ladder for authorisation so fingers crossed. The Cousera course is definitely one to do in my own time because we're so busy here.


    On two occasions I have been asked, "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
    —Charles Babbage, Passages from the Life of a Philosopher

    How to post a question to get the most help http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537

  • BWFC (5/13/2014)


    Gary Varga (5/13/2014)


    BWFC (5/13/2014)


    I've been lucky enough to land in the world of business intelligence with no prior experience other than asking my now colleagues if they could make or change reports to provide the business I was working in with more relevant information. This means that I'm constantly on the hunt for training, whether leading to Microsoft Certification or otherwise. I know that Gary has certainly provided me with some useful advice about UK based courses and finally the company has said that they'll pay for some formal training. The big question is of course, how much will they pay? Up to now though, short of some basic 'this is a SELECT statement', 'this is GROUP BY', at the beginning, I've taught myself. Every day I'm gaining valuable experience but I'd definitely like to have something on paper, whether it's a Microsoft cert, a college course or a company's proprietary BI certificate.

    Corrected grammar

    Have you seen https://www.coursera.org/course/db ?

    I hadn't, that looks very good. It looks like the kind of course that although very informative, the company would be loath to pay for because the content is not massively relevant to what we do. I've signed myself up though because in my opinion you can't know enough. Thanks once again.

    There's a couple of BI courses run in Manchester that my colleague and I have asked to go on. They've been passed up the ladder for authorisation so fingers crossed. The Cousera course is definitely one to do in my own time because we're so busy here.

    Time is a massive cost. Unfortunately, management often only see time out as that not as time invested i.e. a more knowledgeable worker will be more efficient so time training is recouped in the longer term.

    Gaz

    -- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!

  • Gary Varga (5/13/2014)


    BWFC (5/13/2014)


    Gary Varga (5/13/2014)


    BWFC (5/13/2014)


    I've been lucky enough to land in the world of business intelligence with no prior experience other than asking my now colleagues if they could make or change reports to provide the business I was working in with more relevant information. This means that I'm constantly on the hunt for training, whether leading to Microsoft Certification or otherwise. I know that Gary has certainly provided me with some useful advice about UK based courses and finally the company has said that they'll pay for some formal training. The big question is of course, how much will they pay? Up to now though, short of some basic 'this is a SELECT statement', 'this is GROUP BY', at the beginning, I've taught myself. Every day I'm gaining valuable experience but I'd definitely like to have something on paper, whether it's a Microsoft cert, a college course or a company's proprietary BI certificate.

    Corrected grammar

    Have you seen https://www.coursera.org/course/db ?

    I hadn't, that looks very good. It looks like the kind of course that although very informative, the company would be loath to pay for because the content is not massively relevant to what we do. I've signed myself up though because in my opinion you can't know enough. Thanks once again.

    There's a couple of BI courses run in Manchester that my colleague and I have asked to go on. They've been passed up the ladder for authorisation so fingers crossed. The Cousera course is definitely one to do in my own time because we're so busy here.

    Time is a massive cost. Unfortunately, management often only see time out as that not as time invested i.e. a more knowledgeable worker will be more efficient so time training is recouped in the longer term.

    I definitely agree, although we might be running out of longer term unfortunately. Given that, the company is very keen on keeping the people they've got and training is part of that retention plan. People, and I'm not just talking about myself, are probably more likely to stay with an organisation that's prepared to invest in them even though the future is uncertain and I think the company has realised that.


    On two occasions I have been asked, "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
    —Charles Babbage, Passages from the Life of a Philosopher

    How to post a question to get the most help http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537

  • I think there is a HUGE understanding of what Computer Science is (everywhere not here).

    It is not supposed to be a training tool for IT, although it can be.

    Computer Science is more the study of the algorithms, theories, and mathematics that make up computing. It is more related to Mathematics than any other discipline. This is what somebody should study if they want to know which sort algorithm is the best to use in certain situations, etc. Computer Science is not what somebody should study if they want practical hands on programming, web programming, etc.

    The best degrees for people wanting to move into IT without the theory would be Information Systems or Information Technology Degrees.

    Disclaimer: I studied computer science many many years ago vs IS.

  • This is something I've often thought about. Not having a degree in computer science, engineering, or math, I've found myself behind in theory which, at times, has led to my implementing less than optimal solutions. Of course, I've also worked with people who have the degree, but can't solve a business problem.

    There's definitely a need to know theory and understand different algorithms (still a weakness of mine), but there definitely needs to be more real work as well. I'd love to see more of an apprenticeship model, where a morning may be spent in class learning theory and the afternoon working at a business along side a seasoned professional.

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