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Posted Tuesday, April 1, 2014 3:32 PM
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Tom, you make good and valid observations about the supply of technical people when I (we?) started in IT. My college had a small computer, but it was buried in a basement and only a few GUYS (shhh) had access to it. I think there were only about three places in the country that had CS programs that were not really independent of the other sciences.

Post #1557242
Posted Tuesday, April 1, 2014 3:34 PM


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skeleton567 (3/31/2014)
I think WIT and other such sideline organizations are truly asking for a DIFFERENT 'yardstick', as you wisely point out.

Do you have any evidence for that? If so, please produce it. If not, stop posting discriminatory prejudiced bullshit.


Tom
Post #1557243
Posted Tuesday, April 1, 2014 3:41 PM
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Wow, just...WOW
Post #1557248
Posted Tuesday, April 1, 2014 3:57 PM


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Goofy, please understand that the concept of socioeconomic status has been around for decades and is a legitimate sociological term.


I think you've confused my words on that topic with those of my friend Tom. You might re-read our exchange.

There is far more to aiding the needy than just placing them in a technical job with a salary.

Ronald Reagan once said the best social welfare programme is a job. I agree. (But I never voted for the man.)

While I applaud your concern about the plight of women, and the poor and underprivileged, if you worked for me we would have a definite understanding that your immediate goal is get the best results from my IT organization ...

We're talking about voluntary professional IT associations, which are outside whichever IT organisation you may have managed. You seem rather confused about that.

... and you are free to pursue your admirable personal goals outside your job function through your church and social organizations. And if you can't make the choice, I will be happy to assist you. I don't mean to sound crass by that, it's just the way life is, as someone said earlier.

Again, WIT and similar groups are voluntary and external. So far as your making choices for me, well ...
thanks but no thanks. I've done well enough on my own.

And I'll further state that I don't think the vast majority of the economically depressed population is necessarily suited to technical occupations. That's where the 'socio...' comes in. And I don't have a feeling that you understand that.

You're right - I don't understand that at all. Why wouldn't someone be unsuited to a technical occupation, simply because s/he came from poor circumstances? Do explain. I'm really looking forward to it.

Listening to you today, I'm not at all sure that your major interest is the overall welfare of your IT organization. Maybe you should become a social worker.

No, I think I'm doing just fine as an IT manager, thanks.
Post #1557254
Posted Tuesday, April 1, 2014 6:21 PM
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jcrawf02 (4/1/2014)
Personal facts: I am white, male, not quite 40, and I went to those discussions because I felt they were important and wanted to be part of that discussion so that I could think about my own actions.


Out of curiosity, in what way did you think about and change your own actions, as a result of going to the conferences?
Post #1557283
Posted Tuesday, April 1, 2014 7:02 PM


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As you guys seem to have an aversion to the quotation tabs, I'm not sure who said what.


Goofy, please understand that the concept of socioeconomic status has been around for decades and is a legitimate sociological term.
I think you've confused my words on that topic with those of my friend Tom. You might re-read our exchange.

Yes, It was I (oh shit - in American English should that be "me" not "I"?) who attacked the use of that term, and you w[/quote]ho used it.

..........
Listening to you today, I'm not at all sure that your major interest is the overall welfare of your IT organization. Maybe you should become a social worker.
No, I think I'm doing just fine as an IT manager, thanks.

I personally think that the average social worker (in the uk, anyway) is an incompetent fool so trapped by idiotic dogma that they can do nothing useful. So I thing it is excessively offensive to suggest that someone should become a social worker. But then, in my experience, the average IT manager isn't all that much brighter.
Someone has failed to understand that absence of invalid discrimination and prejudice is actuall very good for the company/organisation/enterprise. It is extremely common for people who don't understand that to claim that those who do are attempting to impose invalid discrimination in favour of anyone whom they are trying to protect against invalid discrimination. That's been very visible in the debate here. I think both of you have been guilty of that, but I can't be sure because your failure to use the quote tags makes it almost impossible to work out who said what, and frankly I can't be bothered to try to decipher who said what when you are too lazy to use the features provided to enable you to make it clear.


Tom
Post #1557287
Posted Wednesday, April 2, 2014 9:16 AM


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Tom, you and skeleton567 seem to take a certain degree of pleasure in abusing other people by way of name-calling and ad hominem attacks.

I'm done with you both.
Post #1557555
Posted Wednesday, April 2, 2014 11:42 AM
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And when something DOES affect you directly, it's easy to lose your objectivity.
Post #1557625
Posted Wednesday, April 2, 2014 11:45 AM


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Cody K (4/1/2014)
jcrawf02 (4/1/2014)
Personal facts: I am white, male, not quite 40, and I went to those discussions because I felt they were important and wanted to be part of that discussion so that I could think about my own actions.


Out of curiosity, in what way did you think about and change your own actions, as a result of going to the conferences?
My wife's relatives include several children that at the time were mid-high school. As we sat around the table on Turkey Day or Christmas or whatever, different topics would come up, and sometimes questions or discussions are directed at the nephew versus the niece. That is usually based on what my perception of their interests is, not what their interests actually are. That's part of the WIT discussion that I took away, that even peripheral interaction with young women can shape what they think they are capable of, and dismissing them even unintentionally has a lasting impact.

It also changed how I interacted with my female colleagues at work, who even though I know are technical, I am trying to be more present and aware of how my behaviour changes when working with them versus with my few male colleagues.


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Post #1557628
Posted Thursday, April 3, 2014 5:47 AM


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Steve Jones - SSC Editor (3/31/2014)


... There are entirely too many jerks in this business that still think women aren't as competent, and don't deserve the same opportunities, regardless of their skills ...

They always will. That's why the groups are needed.


This is definitely the case, I've met a few. It's usually not just women they hold this opinion of either.
Ironically enough, they themselves were utterly cr*p. I'm sure there are unreconstructed bigots that are vaguely capable, just saying I've never met one, that's all.


I'm a DBA.
I'm not paid to solve problems. I'm paid to prevent them.
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