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The Loss of Trust Expand / Collapse
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Posted Sunday, September 8, 2013 2:56 PM
Grasshopper

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I'm very glad to see this editorial and conversation going on in a professional forum. I was surprised to see it actually. Thanks, Mr. Jones!

I would refer people to the revelations of Russ Tice, one of the first NSA whistle blowers, and one of the sources for James Risen's December 16, 2005, NSA leak story. He discusses the recording of all content, not just metadata, and the NSA targeting of the senatorial candidate Obama in 2004, as well as the targeting of SCOTUS candidates, and congressional committee members. And Colin Powell just before the invasion of Iraq.

It starts to paint a picture that national defense is not the actual motivation for the intrusion on our civil liberties. Think the days of Hoover are dead and gone? Think again. They're here now and on steroids.

Here is a link to the exclusive interview with Mr. Tice:

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/19/podcast-show-112-nsa-whistleblower-goes-on-record-reveals-new-information-names-culprits/

Normally, only members of Boiling Frogs Post (you need to support this site if you care about civil liberties!) could listen, but this interview has been made available for free because of its importance.
Post #1492618
Posted Sunday, September 8, 2013 5:32 PM
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I've seen too many business leaving all of their data - customers, employees, prospective employees - sitting around unencrypted and unprotected to be too concerned about supposed NSA abilities just yet. Names, SSN, addresses, CC numbers. It's all up for grabs in most companies.
I've seen far more damage from criminal activity on the information side than any government involvement yet. The Sony fiasco just recently is a great example of how even huge companies with the resources to secure their data choose not to.

As for the government, believe me, I am against any sort of 1984, Minority Report future. But the same people that are so quick to denounce the US Government over a couple leaked, debunked slides from a traitor contractor who fled immediately to hostile nations are the same people ready to declare war over terrorist attacks.
It's easy to sit in a server room and complain about government spying (you're not monitoring your network traffic??) and then order hundreds of thousands of our troops into combat after another group of innocent citizens is killed in an attack on US soil.

Let's try and be a little more pragmatic and reasonable. Protecting your data, and your customers data is a great. But the knee-jerk, conspiracy theory reaction to recent "revelations" (did you think the NSA just read the paper and played chess?) is ridiculous.

As data professionals we know how much data the private sector has been amassing over the years. We know how much information can be gleaned from seemingly standard product warranty sign-ups or website forms. And we know how much information people are posting about themselves, 24 hours a day, to every form of social media they can get their hands on. Yet even as we encourage businesses to reap the benefits of mining this data for value, even as we post guides on how to data mine, to store this data and back it up, how to keep personal details and life-times of shopping habits we condemn our government for doing the same thing?

Very odd in my mind. We spend so much time and energy trying to determine who is going to buy what, at which price, and yet when the discussion turns to who is going to destroy our national infrastructure and kill our citizens we decide enough is enough. When I make a public tweet to the world, that's mine and the government shouldn't have access to it!
Post #1492633
Posted Sunday, September 8, 2013 6:04 PM
Grasshopper

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ss7234 (9/8/2013)
I've seen too many business leaving all of their data - customers, employees, prospective employees - sitting around unencrypted and unprotected to be too concerned about supposed NSA abilities just yet. Names, SSN, addresses, CC numbers. It's all up for grabs in most companies.
I've seen far more damage from criminal activity on the information side than any government involvement yet. The Sony fiasco just recently is a great example of how even huge companies with the resources to secure their data choose not to.


Sorry to hear you're too busy to think critically about the topic, or to be informed.

As for the government, believe me, I am against any sort of 1984, Minority Report future. But the same people that are so quick to denounce the US Government over a couple leaked, debunked slides from a traitor contractor who fled immediately to hostile nations are the same people ready to declare war over terrorist attacks.


Definitely not the same people, though I'm encouraged by the additional members of the public who are being educated, because of courageous whistle blowers. If you have read about how awful the current administration has been towards whistle blowers (pulling out the trusty old Espionage Act), you might understand why Snowden chose to avoid the "proper channels" and probable indefinite detention.

Please offer some reference for the debunking. I'm interested.

It's easy to sit in a server room and complain about government spying (you're not monitoring your network traffic??) and then order hundreds of thousands of our troops into combat after another group of innocent citizens is killed in an attack on US soil.


It's most likely that NSA targeting of government officials is to dig up dirt and persuade them not to cause a fuss over our impending, extremely unpopular, adventure into Syria. Do you trust your government that much, to give them any data they want on everyone? Plan on speaking out in dissent or running for office in the near future? Oh, that's right, I forgot. It can't happen here.

Let's try and be a little more pragmatic and reasonable. Protecting your data, and your customers data is a great. But the knee-jerk, conspiracy theory reaction to recent "revelations" (did you think the NSA just read the paper and played chess?) is ridiculous.


The only knee-jerking here is your unfounded denial and name calling. Conspiracies exist - get that through your head. Look it up in a law dictionary. Hand-waving is not the answer.

As data professionals we know how much data the private sector has been amassing over the years. We know how much information can be gleaned from seemingly standard product warranty sign-ups or website forms. And we know how much information people are posting about themselves, 24 hours a day, to every form of social media they can get their hands on. Yet even as we encourage businesses to reap the benefits of mining this data for value, even as we post guides on how to data mine, to store this data and back it up, how to keep personal details and life-times of shopping habits we condemn our government for doing the same thing?


Is that what they're doing? Why do you think so?

Very odd in my mind. We spend so much time and energy trying to determine who is going to buy what, at which price, and yet when the discussion turns to who is going to destroy our national infrastructure and kill our citizens we decide enough is enough. When I make a public tweet to the world, that's mine and the government shouldn't have access to it!


The terrorists hate us for our freedoms. Who, indeed, hates our freedoms and has been rolling right over them with a steam roller? Who benefits? What is our biggest export?
Post #1492637
Posted Sunday, September 8, 2013 7:34 PM


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Robert Diggins (9/8/2013)
Sorry to hear you're too busy to think critically about the topic, or to be informed.


Nothing like a good ol' ad hominem attack to "prove" that the other guy is wrong.


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Post #1492639
Posted Sunday, September 8, 2013 7:54 PM
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Jim P. (9/7/2013)
avo (9/7/2013)
We didn't just lose our privacy when Snowden leaked information about NSA activities. We lost it way before that. Ubiquitous security cameras already track us within an ever-increasing surveillance area.


The tracking of us in the public square is questionable but allowable to an extent. But there is a reason that the fourth and fifth amendments were written.

The text of the Fourth:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The text of the Fifth:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


The British would come into an area and search everybody and everything looking for those who disagreed the with the Crown. Blindly trusting the government to have your interests at heart is worse than foolish. The government is made of humans with all the same fallibility and failures you have. Do you really trust them to have your interests at the center of their heart?


Recently I read about (maybe here?) how a court in Minnesota found that it is reasonable for the government to place cameras on personal property in order to determine whether a crime is taking place, without any kind of warrant. Before you complain about it being "just like the democrats" or "just like the republicans", the prosecutor and the federal judge were appointed by the current idiot and the previous idiot. Both democrats and republicans are destroying our rights, and we sit back and argue with each other over how bad the other side is.

I have a dream that one day we will recognize who the real enemy is.


Dave
Post #1492641
Posted Sunday, September 8, 2013 7:59 PM
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Jeff Moden (9/8/2013)
Robert Diggins (9/8/2013)
Sorry to hear you're too busy to think critically about the topic, or to be informed.


Nothing like a good ol' ad hominem attack to "prove" that the other guy is wrong.


Jeff, I see you post quite often, and never do I recall you being in any way negative. It makes me think maybe the NSA hacked your account to make it look like a legitimate person was against a legitimate argument.

SMILE


Dave
Post #1492642
Posted Sunday, September 8, 2013 8:10 PM
Grasshopper

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Nothing like a good ol' ad hominem attack to "prove" that the other guy is wrong.


Did you read the person quoted as saying "too busy to be concerned with this" or not? I pointed it out because I thought it was important to note, before responding to the other points made, apparently without much consideration.

How would you evaluate his/her use of "conspiracy"? Was that used to denigrate the person/messenger? Did you miss that one?

Is your comment now simply ad hominem?
Post #1492643
Posted Sunday, September 8, 2013 8:53 PM


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ss7234 (9/8/2013)
As for the government, believe me, I am against any sort of 1984, Minority Report future. But the same people that are so quick to denounce the US Government over a couple leaked, debunked slides from a traitor contractor who fled immediately to hostile nations are the same people ready to declare war over terrorist attacks.

Obviously the response to being attacked on 9/11/2001 was not justified at all. And the additional violation of our liberties were justified?

It's easy to sit in a server room and complain about government spying (you're not monitoring your network traffic??) and then order hundreds of thousands of our troops into combat after another group of innocent citizens is killed in an attack on US soil.

Please show me where the U.S. Government has gone on another attack since 9/11 where another group of innocent citizens is killed?

Let's try and be a little more pragmatic and reasonable. Protecting your data, and your customers data is a great. But the knee-jerk, conspiracy theory reaction to recent "revelations" (did you think the NSA just read the paper and played chess?) is ridiculous.

Why is it a knee-jerk, conspiracy theory that the NSA is illegally spying on our data? Especially that the Patriot Act and the NDA Act can be seen to destroy our liberties?

As data professionals we know how much data the private sector has been amassing over the years. We know how much information can be gleaned ... our government for doing the same thing?

As for a private company having your data -- can they put you in jail? Can they legally fine you? Can they force you into a contract?




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Post #1492647
Posted Sunday, September 8, 2013 8:53 PM


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djackson 22568 (9/8/2013)

Recently I read about (maybe here?) how a court in Minnesota found that it is reasonable for the government to place cameras on personal property in order to determine whether a crime is taking place, without any kind of warrant. Before you complain about it being "just like the democrats" or "just like the republicans", the prosecutor and the federal judge were appointed by the current idiot and the previous idiot. Both democrats and republicans are destroying our rights, and we sit back and argue with each other over how bad the other side is.

I have a dream that one day we will recognize who the real enemy is.


Ugh. How long before we have people spying on our databases as well? A sad, sad, time.







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Post #1492648
Posted Sunday, September 8, 2013 9:01 PM


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Steve Jones - SSC Editor (9/8/2013)

Ugh. How long before we have people spying on our databases as well? A sad, sad, time.


I think it was Wisconsin but the principle still applies.




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Post #1492649
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