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A New Look Expand / Collapse
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Posted Monday, July 29, 2013 10:13 PM


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Jeff Moden (7/29/2013)
I just took a look at the home page for the first time this morning. Why in the hell do people think that change is always for the better? The old article icons where classy and rich looking and they've now been replaced with monochromatic junk.

If you want to spend some time in real improvements, make it so the formatting icons at the top of the Post Reply windows actually work instead of having to resort to IFCode Shortcuts. Make it so that you can use graphics in replies much easier. Add some more icons to replace the IFCode Shortcuts hint on the left side so that you can use it for reply space instead of wasted space. And make it easier to upload graphics for the "Write for us" article-creation tool. For example, you COULD make it so that it would automatically upload the graphics in the right places and automatically create the code windows from a Word "paste".

Stop messing with the look. I don't mean for it to be nasty but whomever is trying to design a new look just isn't very good at it. Improve the operation, instead. And, maybe you should ask some of the heavy hitters what they'd like to see for Post Reply functionality before you get started.


+10




Jason AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
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Post #1478814
Posted Tuesday, July 30, 2013 5:18 AM


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SQLRNNR (7/29/2013)
Jeff Moden (7/29/2013)
I just took a look at the home page for the first time this morning. Why in the hell do people think that change is always for the better? The old article icons where classy and rich looking and they've now been replaced with monochromatic junk.

If you want to spend some time in real improvements, make it so the formatting icons at the top of the Post Reply windows actually work instead of having to resort to IFCode Shortcuts. Make it so that you can use graphics in replies much easier. Add some more icons to replace the IFCode Shortcuts hint on the left side so that you can use it for reply space instead of wasted space. And make it easier to upload graphics for the "Write for us" article-creation tool. For example, you COULD make it so that it would automatically upload the graphics in the right places and automatically create the code windows from a Word "paste".

Stop messing with the look. I don't mean for it to be nasty but whomever is trying to design a new look just isn't very good at it. Improve the operation, instead. And, maybe you should ask some of the heavy hitters what they'd like to see for Post Reply functionality before you get started.


+10
Yes, and times another 10.

Somehow it makes me wonder if perhaps ugly, boring, space-wasting layout are have become fashionable? .


Tom
Post #1478931
Posted Tuesday, July 30, 2013 1:35 PM


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Toreador (7/24/2013)
david.wright-948385 (7/24/2013)
Henk Schreij (7/24/2013)
The next disaster has struck.
Since July 17, the QOD (question of the day) has no "yesterday's answer" anymore. Why?
Please "consult" the responsible manager for these changes.

+1


+ another 1.

I've found myself in the last few days just scrolling down the email to get to the QotD, and have stopped reading the rest. Partly due to lack of time, but the new format seems to make things harder to spot at a glance, you have to concentrate more to find things (apart from QotD!).


+ another 1.

+ another 1 to the to small of a width
Post #1479146
Posted Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:46 PM


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L' Eomot Inversé (7/30/2013)
SQLRNNR (7/29/2013)
Jeff Moden (7/29/2013)
I just took a look at the home page for the first time this morning. Why in the hell do people think that change is always for the better? The old article icons where classy and rich looking and they've now been replaced with monochromatic junk.

If you want to spend some time in real improvements, make it so the formatting icons at the top of the Post Reply windows actually work instead of having to resort to IFCode Shortcuts. Make it so that you can use graphics in replies much easier. Add some more icons to replace the IFCode Shortcuts hint on the left side so that you can use it for reply space instead of wasted space. And make it easier to upload graphics for the "Write for us" article-creation tool. For example, you COULD make it so that it would automatically upload the graphics in the right places and automatically create the code windows from a Word "paste".

Stop messing with the look. I don't mean for it to be nasty but whomever is trying to design a new look just isn't very good at it. Improve the operation, instead. And, maybe you should ask some of the heavy hitters what they'd like to see for Post Reply functionality before you get started.


+10
Yes, and times another 10.

Somehow it makes me wonder if perhaps ugly, boring, space-wasting layout are have become fashionable? .


yes - you would be accurate in that pondering.




Jason AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
I have given a name to my pain...
MCM SQL Server


SQL RNNR

Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw
Posting Data Etiquette - Jeff Moden
Hidden RBAR - Jeff Moden
VLFs and the Tran Log - Kimberly Tripp
Post #1479166
Posted Wednesday, July 31, 2013 2:03 AM
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L' Eomot Inversé (7/30/2013)
Somehow it makes me wonder if perhaps ugly, boring, space-wasting layout are have become fashionable? .


I get the impression that some people saw the latest Microsoft "everything looks the same" interfaces (Windows 8, VS 2012, etc), and rather than shaking their heads in disbelief, decided to copy it.
Post #1479328
Posted Wednesday, July 31, 2013 2:18 AM
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Toreador (7/31/2013)

I get the impression that some people saw the latest Microsoft "everything looks the same" interfaces (Windows 8, VS 2012, etc), and rather than shaking their heads in disbelief, decided to copy it.

+1
Fashion and usability make poor bedfellows.
Post #1479340
Posted Wednesday, July 31, 2013 10:09 AM


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Jeff Moden (7/29/2013)
I just took a look at the home page for the first time this morning. Why in the hell do people think that change is always for the better? The old article icons where classy and rich looking and they've now been replaced with monochromatic junk.

If you want to spend some time in real improvements, make it so the formatting icons at the top of the Post Reply windows actually work instead of having to resort to IFCode Shortcuts. Make it so that you can use graphics in replies much easier. Add some more icons to replace the IFCode Shortcuts hint on the left side so that you can use it for reply space instead of wasted space. And make it easier to upload graphics for the "Write for us" article-creation tool. For example, you COULD make it so that it would automatically upload the graphics in the right places and automatically create the code windows from a Word "paste".

Stop messing with the look. I don't mean for it to be nasty but whomever is trying to design a new look just isn't very good at it. Improve the operation, instead. And, maybe you should ask some of the heavy hitters what they'd like to see for Post Reply functionality before you get started.


I'll address a couple things here. I'm not ignoring you, but some of these changes came at a bad time for me, and a few surprised me. I'm just the editor here now, not in charge of all work, so bear with me a touch. Also, keep in mind that I'm not defending the changes, nor agreeing with the notes here, but considering them. Also, I've been on vacation for a week and heads down on presentation prep for a week before that, so I am slightly out of touch.

In terms of the comments and criticisms, please remember that we are not trying to deliberately annoy anyone, and we have people examining things from a user experience point of view as well as a visually appealing design. Those things are inherently subjective. I remember when we changed from NT4 to Win2K, and with successive changes, we've seen tremendous numbers of complaints from users. Most of those complaints disappeared once people adjusted to change. I'm also one of those people, though more than visual change, I dislike spatial change. When things move to new locations, it disrupts my muscle memory. I appreciate the struggles some of you have, but remember that you're not "right" (nether am I, or we) and that opinions vary widely.

We are striving to improve what we do, which necessitates some change. Insults and complaints that someone "doesn't know what they're doing" are unnecessary, unprofessional, and most importantly, untrue. You (whoever reads this) do not have the last word on what looks good. Personally I like lots of the Win8/WS2012 look as it's easier to see and visually clue in to a specific area. Lots of people agree, although lots disagree as well.

Our changes here were to try and get a cleaner, less cluttered look. That's what I wanted, along with a few other people. I have gotten complaints regularly for years about the poor design of the site, which was mostly my fault. We started to address some of this, but the roll-out was poorly implemented as we had site and newsletter changes that got out of sync. The icon changes on the site were supposed to correspond to an overall site change that didn't get deployed. As a result, things look worse than initial design items I saw.

We are re-examining things here, though it's not a daily process due to the time zone differences and the fact that this isn't a full time project for me. I still have other work to do, but I will update you (daily if possible), on how we are re-examining things and what we are looking to change.







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Post #1479574
Posted Wednesday, July 31, 2013 10:43 AM


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Steve Jones - SSC Editor (7/31/2013)
Jeff Moden (7/29/2013)
I just took a look at the home page for the first time this morning. Why in the hell do people think that change is always for the better? The old article icons where classy and rich looking and they've now been replaced with monochromatic junk.

If you want to spend some time in real improvements, make it so the formatting icons at the top of the Post Reply windows actually work instead of having to resort to IFCode Shortcuts. Make it so that you can use graphics in replies much easier. Add some more icons to replace the IFCode Shortcuts hint on the left side so that you can use it for reply space instead of wasted space. And make it easier to upload graphics for the "Write for us" article-creation tool. For example, you COULD make it so that it would automatically upload the graphics in the right places and automatically create the code windows from a Word "paste".

Stop messing with the look. I don't mean for it to be nasty but whomever is trying to design a new look just isn't very good at it. Improve the operation, instead. And, maybe you should ask some of the heavy hitters what they'd like to see for Post Reply functionality before you get started.


I'll address a couple things here. I'm not ignoring you, but some of these changes came at a bad time for me, and a few surprised me. I'm just the editor here now, not in charge of all work, so bear with me a touch. Also, keep in mind that I'm not defending the changes, nor agreeing with the notes here, but considering them. Also, I've been on vacation for a week and heads down on presentation prep for a week before that, so I am slightly out of touch.

In terms of the comments and criticisms, please remember that we are not trying to deliberately annoy anyone, and we have people examining things from a user experience point of view as well as a visually appealing design. Those things are inherently subjective. I remember when we changed from NT4 to Win2K, and with successive changes, we've seen tremendous numbers of complaints from users. Most of those complaints disappeared once people adjusted to change. I'm also one of those people, though more than visual change, I dislike spatial change. When things move to new locations, it disrupts my muscle memory. I appreciate the struggles some of you have, but remember that you're not "right" (nether am I, or we) and that opinions vary widely.

We are striving to improve what we do, which necessitates some change. Insults and complaints that someone "doesn't know what they're doing" are unnecessary, unprofessional, and most importantly, untrue. You (whoever reads this) do not have the last word on what looks good. Personally I like lots of the Win8/WS2012 look as it's easier to see and visually clue in to a specific area. Lots of people agree, although lots disagree as well.

Our changes here were to try and get a cleaner, less cluttered look. That's what I wanted, along with a few other people. I have gotten complaints regularly for years about the poor design of the site, which was mostly my fault. We started to address some of this, but the roll-out was poorly implemented as we had site and newsletter changes that got out of sync. The icon changes on the site were supposed to correspond to an overall site change that didn't get deployed. As a result, things look worse than initial design items I saw.

We are re-examining things here, though it's not a daily process due to the time zone differences and the fact that this isn't a full time project for me. I still have other work to do, but I will update you (daily if possible), on how we are re-examining things and what we are looking to change.


Understood but the look was just fine. My real complaint is that if "they" have the time to mess around with a look that didn't really need to be changed, then "they" the time to fix some of the things I've mentioned.

Most of those complaints disappeared once people adjusted to change.



Let's be clear on things like this. I can't speak for other people but I've never "adjusted to the change"... it's that I finally realized that I wasn't being listened to and that making any suggestions was a total waste of time. For example, I made several suggestions about fixing the lack of functionality on the Post Reply menus for a very long time. The reason why you haven't heard about those things from me in a long time is because nothing was being done for "understandable" reasons such as "no developer time" (to quote you from many times). It's apparent that Developer Time is now available and they're wasting it on such things as a new monochromatic look instead of fixing things that should have been on the "to do" list from 10 years ago.

I don't believe I'm a minority here, either. I think the silent majority just doesn't want to take the time to make suggestions because they've already seen that they're fighting "city hall" with such suggestions.

I like SSC too much to take on that attitude.


--Jeff Moden
"RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for "Row-By-Agonizing-Row".

First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column."

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Post #1479599
Posted Wednesday, July 31, 2013 10:48 AM


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Jeff Moden (7/31/2013)

Understood but the look was just fine.

That's an opinion, and I'll let you know since I see lots of emails and notes from people, it's not universal. Lots of people didn't like the look.

Course, I couldn't easily measure how many people did like it.


My real complaint is that if "they" have the time to mess around with a look that didn't really need to be changed, then "they" the time to fix some of the things I've mentioned.

Not true. Different people, different skills sets here. If the people changing the look could code, I'd have a lot of stuff fixed.


I don't believe I'm a minority here, either. I think the silent majority just doesn't want to take the time to make suggestions because they've already seen that they're fighting "city hall" with such suggestions.

I like SSC too much to take on that attitude.


I don't know if you're a minority or majority, Jeff. Honestly, I can't decide and I have used rules of thumb for measuring the complaints and notes across the years. Keep in mind that there isn't a single group or person that's influenced change. We've had various notes across the last few years, ideas, suggestions, etc and have considered lots of them.







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Post #1479602
Posted Wednesday, July 31, 2013 2:56 PM


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Steve Jones - SSC Editor (7/31/2013)
Not true. Different people, different skills sets here. If the people changing the look could code, I'd have a lot of stuff fixed.


Ah... I understand the dilema.

Are there any plans to fix any of the things I mentioned or maybe bring in that "new forum" software you had us take a look at a while back?


--Jeff Moden
"RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for "Row-By-Agonizing-Row".

First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column."

(play on words) "Just because you CAN do something in T-SQL, doesn't mean you SHOULDN'T." --22 Aug 2013

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to post performance problems
Post #1479707
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