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Posted Monday, June 10, 2013 7:35 PM


SSChasing Mays

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JJ B (6/10/2013)
I do not understand the point of this Editorial. I do not know anything about the the GUI tools in SSMS for creating tables, but I am familiar with both MS Access and ERwin. For SQL Server databases, I always model database changes in the ERwin file first. I then use ERwin to generate the SQL code which I run in SSMS when appropriate.


I used the MS Access GUI tools early on. I eventually found they left me with as bad a design as the designer (me) could come up with.

As far as ERWin, I've never had a chance to use it. And many others haven't either. In many companies the DBA is an accidental one with the job thrown at a sysadmin or a developer that had the job thrown at them. The add-on tools are too expensive or not known about. So the DBAs only have the SSMS tools to use.

Then there is a generation of us that didn't have GUI's to really work with. I started in SQL 7 in the late 90's. You had to code by hand no matter what to get to the extended stuff to start with.

So you are now sitting here and saying that you don't think it is valuable to know how to do it by hand just lacks weight with me. There should always be the ability to do it by hand. Without the basics, the rest is shifting sands.




----------------
Jim P.

A little bit of this and a little byte of that can cause bloatware.
Post #1461834
Posted Tuesday, June 11, 2013 10:33 AM
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So you are now sitting here and saying that you don't think it is valuable to know how to do it by hand...

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that 1) it *is* very valuable to have the GUIs despite what the post said, and 2) that the good GUIs help beginners learn "how to do it by hand" correctly. I'm also saying that once you know how to do something by hand, always doing it by hand is generally a waste of time and unnecessary point of possible errors if a GUI is available.

I hear you that not everyone is lucky enough to be able to work with a good GUI tool. That's too bad. I can't imagine wanting to work in such a place. I believe in having the tools available to do a job efficiently. Too bad ERwin is ridiculously expensive.

Jim, thanks for showing how my previous post was not clear. I hope this post clarifies my thoughts.
Post #1462263
Posted Tuesday, June 11, 2013 11:13 AM


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Another case where the SSMS GUI failed...
Bug in SSMS where page level locking is disabled.
http://www.interworks.com/blogs/bbickell/2010/05/10/sql-server-index-indexname-table-tablename-cannot-be-reorganized-because-p

Whereas, if the SQL DDL command to create the index was coded by hand, the coder would know exactly what they were doing.

And when the object was reverse-engineered, so that it can be properly checked into the source code control system, was this error by SSMS going to be detected? I doubt it.



(PHB) I think we should build an SQL database. (Dilbert) What color do you want that database? (PHB) I think mauve has the most RAM.
Post #1462276
Posted Tuesday, June 11, 2013 11:21 AM


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I do not understand the point of this Editorial. I do not know anything about the the GUI tools in SSMS for creating tables, but I am familiar with both MS Access and ERwin.

@JJ B If you do not know anything about the the GUI tools in SSMS for creating tables, then you would certainly wonder why I'm warning of the dangers of relying on them rather than learning how to cut your own code. What I was trying to say was that we shouldn't rely on the GUI tools. I'm not advocating taking away all the tools that help with database design, just making the point that we should also support the use of code to design databases by providing good documentation and examples.

I'm pleased that you're happy with ERwin. I used it for many years, but I never regretted learning how to cut tables in code as well. For a start, I can use the latest features of SQL Server without having to wait for the ERwin upgrade!



Best wishes,

Phil Factor
Simple Talk
Post #1462286
Posted Tuesday, June 11, 2013 11:34 AM
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Phil Factor: Thank you for your reply. That makes sense. And concerning waiting for new SQL Server features to get into ERwin: you have me there!
Post #1462294
Posted Wednesday, August 21, 2013 1:32 AM
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Hello Phil,

Motivated by the railroad style diagrams article at Simple Talk, I wrote a program to generate railroad diagrams directly from the command syntax in text form.

Check it out at http://translator.colindaley.com and let me know what you think.
Post #1486570
Posted Wednesday, August 21, 2013 5:09 PM


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Phil, I find myself about 95% in agreement with you; the 5% discrepancy is because I think you are understating your case.

For a long, very long, extremely long time I have struggled with the fact that MS tools like Query Analyser (OK, I'm archaic) and SSMS when asked for scripts to generate something as simple as a table or a view, instead of generating a natural script generate a heap of gobbledegook dominated by lousy layout and insanely prolific and utterly unnecessary brackets that requires extensive editing before it is useful for anything. It's cheering to see that I'm not the only one who has noticed that minor problem; and somewhat disappointing, on reading these comments, to see the odd one that suggests Ms have got that right!


Tom
Post #1487000
Posted Thursday, August 22, 2013 9:26 AM


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@Colin
I couldn't get that link to work. It would be a great tool to have. It is a time-consuming job to do by hand.



Best wishes,

Phil Factor
Simple Talk
Post #1487352
Posted Thursday, August 22, 2013 12:57 PM
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Drat! I can't access it either. I can ping it, but Firefox says "Connecting ..." forever. Is that what happened to you?

I have reported it to my hosting provider. I will update you when it is up again.
Post #1487462
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