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CHOOSE - 1 Expand / Collapse
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Posted Tuesday, January 29, 2013 7:35 AM


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bitbucket-25253 (1/29/2013)
davoscollective
A lot of people are complaining about not having SQL Server 2012 or Adventureworks on production machines. I have a test/dev VM with SQL Server 2012 SP1 and both the Adventureworks2012 and AdventureworksDW2012 databases. I would have thought this would be something SQL Server professionals should all do so that you can start to become familiar with the new functionality prior to any potential upgrade of your systems, or even just to keep your skills up to date. If not then this question might be useful in that it serves as a prompt to do that. If you can't install stuff at work and you don't want to do it on your off time, then why not get a free cloud trial with Azure or something else so you can try it out. I'm pretty sure I've read Steve Jones suggesting exactly that a few times.

Bolding added by this poster.

+1

Ron, you won't like this but your l;ast post has provoked me into being absolutely blunt. Have you any reasonable justification for a question that requires people either to run the code or to manually calculate a complicated aggregate over 290 rows? If you haven't, and I can't imagine any weay in which youi could have, it seems to me that agreeing with the davoscollective comment is just ducking the issue, abdicating responsability for a pretty awful question with an explanation which doesn't address in the slightest way the only difficult part of the question (the actual calculation).


Tom
Post #1413051
Posted Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:01 AM
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bitbucket-25253 (1/29/2013)
davoscollective
A lot of people are complaining about not having SQL Server 2012 or Adventureworks on production machines. I have a test/dev VM with SQL Server 2012 SP1 and both the Adventureworks2012 and AdventureworksDW2012 databases. I would have thought this would be something SQL Server professionals should all do so that you can start to become familiar with the new functionality prior to any potential upgrade of your systems, or even just to keep your skills up to date. If not then this question might be useful in that it serves as a prompt to do that. If you can't install stuff at work and you don't want to do it on your off time, then why not get a free cloud trial with Azure or something else so you can try it out. I'm pretty sure I've read Steve Jones suggesting exactly that a few times.

Bolding added by this poster.

+1

1. Deny the problem
2. Blame it on the customer
What does that remind me of? Oh yes, customer service in general...

Don't get me wrong, I honor the fact that you submitted this QOTD (and the many great questions from you before this one, and the ones that are about to come). But I think this one went in the wrong direction.
But maybe I have misinterpreted it. Because I was under the impression that it tries to teach you how to use Choose, not how to become a "SQL Server professional" by reviewing AdventureWorks during QOTDs.


Best Regards,
Chris Büttner
Post #1413064
Posted Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:25 AM


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bitbucket-25253 (1/29/2013)
davoscollective
A lot of people are complaining about not having SQL Server 2012 or Adventureworks on production machines. I have a test/dev VM with SQL Server 2012 SP1 and both the Adventureworks2012 and AdventureworksDW2012 databases. I would have thought this would be something SQL Server professionals should all do so that you can start to become familiar with the new functionality prior to any potential upgrade of your systems, or even just to keep your skills up to date. If not then this question might be useful in that it serves as a prompt to do that. If you can't install stuff at work and you don't want to do it on your off time, then why not get a free cloud trial with Azure or something else so you can try it out. I'm pretty sure I've read Steve Jones suggesting exactly that a few times.

Bolding added by this poster.

+1

I too think that every serious SQL Server professional (hmmm, that should a tautology) should have access to a sandbox SQL Server instance in an isolated environment, where (s)he can try out stuff without having to fear breaking any important things. And while it's not required to have AdventureWorks there, it definitely can be convenient.
For me, that sandbox instance lives on my own laptop. Developer edition - costs only 50 bucks; I luckily don't have to pay, but otherwise I definitely would pay for it out of my own pocket without giving it as much as a second thought. Or, if I really had a hard time coughing up that amount, I would switch to Express Edition.

But I still don't like the question at all. You could just as well have written: "download and install an evaluation edition of SQL Server 2012 if you don't have one yet, then download and install AdventureWorks 2012, then run the code below - what is the result". That would have been the exact same learning experience.

As I (and others) have said before: if you want people to learn about the CHOOSE operator, give them a question that they can try to work out in their head. That will test them much more, and that will teach them much more.

I am surprised to see that you responded to one post, but didn't respond in any way to the criticism from other posts. With that, you create the appearance of not caring about the criticism. You don't have to agree with me (a lot of people don't agree with me - ask my wife and children if you don't believe me, they disagree with me all the time! ;)), but I would hope that you at least acknowledge that you heard us, and tell us how you think about it.



Hugo Kornelis, SQL Server MVP
Visit my SQL Server blog: http://sqlblog.com/blogs/hugo_kornelis
Post #1413077
Posted Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:33 AM
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Yes, it would be very interesting to learn more about CHOOSE. While I don't currently run 2012, I think a question that applied more to the functioning of the index argument in CHOOSE would help us to learn more from it.

While an operating lab-type example is fine, running the query and getting the correct answer doesn't always necessarily solidify an understanding of the principles of the function's operation.

As has been suggested before, having the data present in the question would have been a big asset, as I did attempt to download the 2008 version of AdventureWorks, but was met with incompatibility issues.
Way too much trouble to answer a question.

Thanks for the question and for bringing CHOOSE to the forefront.
Post #1413083
Posted Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:38 AM
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Now seriously...

what's the point of this QotD? It's not testing any knowledge of how CHOOSE works.

If the aim of this is to push you to install SQL 2012 and AW database, then ok, but having (mandatory) to run the query to know the answer, the question is just pointless.

I guess all members here can copy/paste, press F5 and choose the right two answers.

Post #1413088
Posted Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:53 AM


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Hugo Kornelis
I am surprised to see that you responded to one post, but didn't respond in any way to the criticism from other posts. With that, you create the appearance of not caring about the criticism.


Unfortunately the criticism touches me deeply, but I have learned to bite my tongue and say nothing that provokes further argument. I try to learn from the criticism how to form improved QODs.

By the way your discussions following my QODs is great, for which I thank you.


If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.

Ron

Please help us, help you -before posting a question please read

Before posting a performance problem please read
Post #1413104
Posted Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:59 AM


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Hugo Kornelis (1/29/2013)

I too think that every serious SQL Server professional (hmmm, that should a tautology) should have access to a sandbox SQL Server instance in an isolated environment, where (s)he can try out stuff without having to fear breaking any important things. And while it's not required to have AdventureWorks there, it definitely can be convenient.
For me, that sandbox instance lives on my own laptop. Developer edition - costs only 50 bucks; I luckily don't have to pay, but otherwise I definitely would pay for it out of my own pocket without giving it as much as a second thought. Or, if I really had a hard time coughing up that amount, I would switch to Express Edition.

I wouldn't have a hard time coughing up 50 bucks for 2012 developer edition, but I would have had a hard time last year coughing up 2000 bucks to replace my current platform which won't support sql 2012 (and wouldn't have space for it even if it did support it, sine I want to retain the current 2008 R2 sandbox capability anyway and with a few gigabytes dedicated to other learning materials I'm pushed for disc space). I had planned to buying a new platform last year, but various problems cropped up which occupied a lot of my time and screwed up my cash flow and that prevented it (temporarily only; I will do it in May this year, I think - I don't want to do it while in P del C because there's no reliable IT retailer here, so it waits until I'm next in the UK).

I don't think it's always necessary for a DB professional to have a sandbox with the latest SQL Server version: I never had an SQL 2005 Sandbox when my work was on SQL 2000, because I didn't have time for it when it was relevant - I did have time enough to read 2005 documentation and compare it with 2008 (for which I did acquire a sandbox) and determine as a result that we would go strainght from 2000 to 2008 without touching 2005, which I believe was the correct professional decision to take for the company, and having a 2005 sandbox wouldn't have helped me to reach it.

But I still don't like the question at all. You could just as well have written: "download and install an evaluation edition of SQL Server 2012 if you don't have one yet, then download and install AdventureWorks 2012, then run the code below - what is the result". That would have been the exact same learning experience.
I agree completely with that view of the question.


Tom
Post #1413109
Posted Tuesday, January 29, 2013 9:08 AM


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bitbucket-25253 (1/29/2013)
Unfortunately the criticism touches me deeply

I am sorry to hear that you feel so hurt. You made a mistake. So what? We're only humans, we're supposed to make mistakes. And if I were given the luxury of getting to choose where I'll make my next mistake, I'd pick the QotD in an instant. It's not like lifes are at stake here!

I know I can dish out harsh criticism, but I always do so in the hope of providing ways to improve (and I get from the rest of your message that you take it that way). I always try (but probably still sometimes fail) to target my words to the topic, not to the person, and to maintain a positive tone. And in the situations where I do fail to come over that way, please remember that I don't intend to cut you, or anyone, down.

Some other posters may come across as more blunt - but when I submit a question(**) and find myself at the receiving end, I always try to disregard any negativism and end up with the improvement suggestion hidden in those messages. And then I consider whether I agree with that suggestion or not, and respond to that.
(Oh, and if people really start attacking me, I try to ignore it. Just as I do with all the silly "give me my point" messages).

(**) And yes, I know it's been way too long since I last submitted a question. I'll try to do better in the future. But not now - no time!



Hugo Kornelis, SQL Server MVP
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Post #1413122
Posted Wednesday, January 30, 2013 1:51 AM
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bitbucket-25253 (1/29/2013)
Unfortunately the criticism touches me deeply, but I have learned to bite my tongue and say nothing that provokes further argument. I try to learn from the criticism how to form improved QODs.

Sorry to hear that. I dont think that this is the right reaction though.
Hugo already mentioned that we all do make mistakes. And sometimes it is just important to acknowledge a mistake and take the lesson with you.
This is not the first time you have submitted a QOTD. So the fact that this single one is at least "controversial", should not really bother you in a way that you avoid the discussion.


Best Regards,
Chris Büttner
Post #1413514
Posted Wednesday, January 30, 2013 2:41 AM


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Ron, you must have overlooked something this time.



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