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Posted Saturday, November 24, 2012 12:47 PM
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CELKO (11/23/2012)
Here we go again. Dear J.C. you do need to calm down.
"!=" has nothing to do with 1970's Sybase and/or UNIX. Yes it was used old times, but it's still in use in modern technologies (eg. C# .NET). And I also, can tell you (keep it secret please) that will port easily into most of existing RDBMS's (eg. ORACLE)


Sorry, but I served on ANSI X3H2 for 10 years ...


So, what? It does mean absolutely nothing! If committee was stupid enough to explicitly reject "!=" syntax, it just tells about how outdated committee is (was). "!=" is no less logical than "<>" and it is in use by many cutting edge modern languages. I have nothing against using "<>", I just prefer "!=" and that is. No committee in the world (eg. United Nation) will stop me using it while MS SQL Server supports it.

BTW, I didn't reject the fact that "!=" was used by Sybase and UNIX back in 1970, if you read my words, I've said that this syntax was used in old days. What I was saying that use of "!=" right now has nothing to do with Sybase of 70's and UNIX. It just works in many modern languages, and it is very popular within people from C, C++, Java and C# background.

Actually, I wonder, which RDBMS system doesn't support "!=" (while supporting all other ANSI standards)? Please, someone, advise! I am desperate to know where I will not be able to port my code to...




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"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing"
"O skol'ko nam otkrytiy chudnyh prevnosit microsofta duh!"
(So many miracle inventions provided by MS to us...)

How to post your question to get the best and quick help
Post #1388327
Posted Monday, November 26, 2012 3:45 AM
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Interesting discussion. What I don't get is - what's so special about looking like a hillbilly? Surely a hillbilly performs the task of looking like everyone else, namely using her/his eyes?
Post #1388501
Posted Tuesday, November 27, 2012 10:50 AM


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what other alternative we can take here instead of "!= "


<> this has always been the ANSI/ISO Standard and it is univerally supported in every SQL I know

There have been several dialects in various SQLs !=, ^= and DB2 went nuts when they were pushing PL/I:
<> or ¬= or != Not equal to
= Equal to
< Less than
> Greater than
<= or ¬> or !> Less than or equal to (or not greater than)
> = or ¬< or !< Greater than or equal to (or not less than)


Books in Celko Series for Morgan-Kaufmann Publishing
Analytics and OLAP in SQL
Data and Databases: Concepts in Practice
Data, Measurements and Standards in SQL
SQL for Smarties
SQL Programming Style
SQL Puzzles and Answers
Thinking in Sets
Trees and Hierarchies in SQL
Post #1389315
Posted Tuesday, November 27, 2012 11:01 AM
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CELKO (11/27/2012)
what other alternative we can take here instead of "!= "


<> this has always been the ANSI/ISO Standard and it is univerally supported in every SQL I know

There have been several dialects in various SQLs !=, ^= and DB2 went nuts when they were pushing PL/I:...


Just matter of interest, do you know any RDBMS system which doesn't support "!=" while supporting all other ANSI standards?


_____________________________________________
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing"
"O skol'ko nam otkrytiy chudnyh prevnosit microsofta duh!"
(So many miracle inventions provided by MS to us...)

How to post your question to get the best and quick help
Post #1389321
Posted Tuesday, November 27, 2012 11:16 AM


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I don't remember punch cards but I do remember 8 inch floppy disks, if you had a 386 as a desktop you were lucky, and servers ran on 486 architectures and when 100Gb disk storage was considered excessive.


I have my old slide rulers in a wall display in my living room, and i still use an abacus to do my checkbook. In the real old days, we used an abacus for core dumps (Google it) because a rod can represent 0 to 15

I must say I do feel as though I've made it here on SSC by being flamed by JC.


Yes, it is a rite of passage


Books in Celko Series for Morgan-Kaufmann Publishing
Analytics and OLAP in SQL
Data and Databases: Concepts in Practice
Data, Measurements and Standards in SQL
SQL for Smarties
SQL Programming Style
SQL Puzzles and Answers
Thinking in Sets
Trees and Hierarchies in SQL
Post #1389331
Posted Tuesday, November 27, 2012 11:33 AM
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CELKO (11/27/2012)
I don't remember punch cards but I do remember 8 inch floppy disks, if you had a 386 as a desktop you were lucky, and servers ran on 486 architectures and when 100Gb disk storage was considered excessive.


I have my old slide rulers in a wall display in my living room, and i still use an abacus to do my checkbook. In the real old days, we used an abacus for core dumps (Google it) because a rod can represent 0 to 15

I must say I do feel as though I've made it here on SSC by being flamed by JC.


Yes, it is a rite of passage


You remember punch cards, 8 inches floppy disks, abacus and I think you should remember how magnetic toroids RAM looked like and how heavy were two handle discs for hard-drives of IBM 350... You have a great memory!
May be you could remember which RDBMS doesn't support "!=" while supporting all other ANSI SQL standards?


_____________________________________________
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing"
"O skol'ko nam otkrytiy chudnyh prevnosit microsofta duh!"
(So many miracle inventions provided by MS to us...)

How to post your question to get the best and quick help
Post #1389347
Posted Tuesday, November 27, 2012 11:36 AM


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It's not about to nor is it ever likely that the proprietary version of UPDATE will ever be deprecated because too many people have written code that uses it.


Gee, we said the same thing about *= and the first definition of BIT Look at the number of MVPs, such as Hugo Cornelis for one, want it deprecated in favor of MERGE.

The same holds true with UPDATE. If you don't know how to use it correctly, then it'll do weird things to you just like any other code.


No, the problem with the UPDATE..FROM.. syntax is fundamental. It has cardinality problems which it resolves in a non-deterministic fashion, based on the current indexing and physical storage ordering.

I don't care if it's proprietary because true portability is nothing but a myth.


A great myth that has earned me a living for 20+ years. Maybe 30+ years, if you count my FORTRAN days. We had to turn on the FIPS
flagger and not use any UNIVAC or IBM features for DoD projects. Same rules for C programs, too. Once you start with that requirement, you just do it without effort. Just like learning correct English and grammar.

Today, you can use the SET FIPS_FLAGGER ( 'level' | OFF ) in T-SQL. I am surprised at how few T-SQL programmers know the FIPS program and think that they are profssioanls. I prefer to use the Mimer conformance tool since it gives better messages and I can cut and paste text for my books easily between windows while I am writing.




Books in Celko Series for Morgan-Kaufmann Publishing
Analytics and OLAP in SQL
Data and Databases: Concepts in Practice
Data, Measurements and Standards in SQL
SQL for Smarties
SQL Programming Style
SQL Puzzles and Answers
Thinking in Sets
Trees and Hierarchies in SQL
Post #1389349
Posted Tuesday, November 27, 2012 11:48 AM


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I should have posted this in the previous posting. Hugo makes all the arguments.

http://sqlblog.com/blogs/hugo_kornelis/archive/2008/03/09/lets-deprecate-update-from.aspx



Books in Celko Series for Morgan-Kaufmann Publishing
Analytics and OLAP in SQL
Data and Databases: Concepts in Practice
Data, Measurements and Standards in SQL
SQL for Smarties
SQL Programming Style
SQL Puzzles and Answers
Thinking in Sets
Trees and Hierarchies in SQL
Post #1389355
Posted Tuesday, November 27, 2012 3:49 PM
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Looks like I will never get the answer I am looking for from JC...
Is any RDBMS around which doesn't support "!=" while supporting all other ANSI SQL standards?

May be I make my question a bit easier:

Is any RDBMS around which is fully ANSI SQL standards compliant?

I have heard that there is one, used somewhere in Sweden, but it's not widely used, cannot even track it down...
Any other ideas?





_____________________________________________
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing"
"O skol'ko nam otkrytiy chudnyh prevnosit microsofta duh!"
(So many miracle inventions provided by MS to us...)

How to post your question to get the best and quick help
Post #1389442
Posted Tuesday, November 27, 2012 6:07 PM


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CELKO (11/27/2012)
I should have posted this in the previous posting. Hugo makes all the arguments.

http://sqlblog.com/blogs/hugo_kornelis/archive/2008/03/09/lets-deprecate-update-from.aspx



I've seen all of his arguments and appreciate them but they still boil down to knowing what the code can and cannot do. In fact, I've used some of the so called "faults" of the proprietary form of UPDATE in T-SQL to overcome some pretty nasty problems.

Just like any other code, if you don't know what the code is doing or is going to do, people should probably choose a different profession. Even a SELECT technically sucks because it doesn't warn you that you haven't included a predicate or a sargable predicate. I wouldn't have it any other way.


--Jeff Moden
"RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for "Row-By-Agonizing-Row".

First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column."

(play on words) "Just because you CAN do something in T-SQL, doesn't mean you SHOULDN'T." --22 Aug 2013

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