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Discuss Content Posted by David Ziffer
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Writing Nearly Codeless Apps: Part 3
19 posts, Page 2 of 2
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Writing Nearly Codeless Apps: Part 3
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Julien.Chappel
Julien.Chappel
Posted Wednesday, October 20, 2010 6:14 PM
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Last Login: Monday, April 18, 2011 8:08 PM
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I like the idea generally, but itshould have been pointed out that the system is not a limitation but a framework only. If the system fails then everything fails within it.
I don'nt like the philosophy "put your trust in the system not in genius." This rubbish. Even the system is invented by geniuses, like Henry Ford (inventing the most hated system the production line). I would like to defet this philosophy with the Roman Army example. Geniuses: what would have been the Roman Army without Cornelius Scipio (reorganising the tactical deployment suit to the situation), Aemilius Paulus (Introducing new tactics to beat the famous macedon falanx at Pydna), Gaius Marius (reorganising the Roman Army so that after decades of disastorous defets it was capable to win battles again-Aquae Sixtee; Vercelle-, Julius Ceasar... and the list goes on of these ancient geniuses. Also the Roman Army is full of individual heroes.
regards
Julien
Post #1008112
David Ziffer
David Ziffer
Posted Wednesday, October 20, 2010 7:23 PM
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Last Login: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 10:52 AM
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Julien.Chappel (10/20/2010)
I don'nt like the philosophy "put your trust in the system not in genius." This rubbish.
I agree that we always need geniuses, and I never meant to imply that we can dispense with them. The question is how we use them.
To use the military analogy, you can either put your genius in a uniform and hope that he leads the troops to a victory mostly through fortunate circumstance (because there is a limit to the effect of a single genius on the battlefield no matter how good he is). Or you can instead use the genius to design a system that allows all ordinary foot soldiers to perform 100% better.
I prefer the latter approach because it distributes the effect of the genius more effectively. Also you lose fewer geniuses that way.
Post #1008124
Julien.Chappel
Julien.Chappel
Posted Wednesday, October 20, 2010 7:51 PM
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Last Login: Monday, April 18, 2011 8:08 PM
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Hi David,
I think we have a different point of view about geniuses. Let me quote you: "Or you can instead use the genius to design a system ."
In my book if you can use a genius he/she is not a genius anymore. There are certain circumstances when the system can force a genius to back down temporally (Galileo Galilei) but certainly not use them. Galilei's last words on his deathbed were "Eppur si muove". It means And yet it moves. Implementation in its context: The Eart is moving whatever the Vatican says. Giordano Bruno rather died on the pire then retract his ideas.
So don't try to use genius because you end up with mediocre sapling.
Just anoter thought. Geniuses who design systems never become part of the system. It is only looks that way. They are controlling the system. Bill Gates for example. He can walk away from Microsoft any time, he still remains one of the most richest man in the world.
Well we are far away from SQL Server and Writing Nearly Codeless Apps but I enjoyed the exchange of ideas.
reagrds
Julien
Post #1008130
Julien.Chappel
Julien.Chappel
Posted Wednesday, October 20, 2010 7:53 PM
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Group: General Forum Members
Last Login: Monday, April 18, 2011 8:08 PM
Points: 10,
Visits: 44
Hi David,
I think we have a different point of view about geniuses. Let me quote you: "Or you can instead use the genius to design a system ."
In my book if you can use a genius he/she is not a genius anymore. There are certain circumstances when the system can force a genius to back down temporally (Galileo Galilei) but certainly not use them. Galilei's last words on his deathbed were "Eppur si muove". It means And yet it moves. Implementation in its context: The Eart is moving whatever the Vatican says. Giordano Bruno rather died on the pire then retract his ideas.
So don't try to use genius because you end up with mediocre sapling.
Just anoter thought. Geniuses who design systems never become part of the system. It is only looks that way. They are controlling the system. Bill Gates for example. He can walk away from Microsoft any time, he still remains one of the most richest man in the world.
Well we are far away from SQL Server and Writing Nearly Codeless Apps but I enjoyed the exchange of ideas.
reagrds
Julien
Post #1008132
Pantelis Magos
Pantelis Magos
Posted Thursday, October 21, 2010 5:57 AM
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Last Login: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 7:41 AM
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Visits: 17
Where are the links for Parts 1 and 2?
Post #1008364
David Ziffer
David Ziffer
Posted Thursday, October 21, 2010 7:28 AM
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Last Login: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 10:52 AM
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Pantelis Magos (10/21/2010)
Where are the links for Parts 1 and 2?
Just do a search (using SQL Server Central's Search box) on the article title.
Post #1008464
bjl2
bjl2
Posted Thursday, October 21, 2010 3:29 PM
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Last Login: Thursday, November 22, 2012 11:05 AM
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I enjoyed your articles, and I look forward to the rest of them, and to trying out the framework you discuss.
I'm neither a DBA, nor a Developer (yet); I work in QA, so please excuse any ignorance on my part. This method of development is fantastic, from a QA perspective, but would it not be a performance nightmare for many applications?
The first article said "The objective here is to produce small to medium database-based applications". The application I work with daily is certainly no Amazon.com. It is a client-server app with around 1200 tables, but most of them are small. A few of them may reach a couple of million records, though. Does that put it outside the scope of the methodology proposed in the article?
Performance, especially of long-running processes, is a constant issue for our largest customers, and we continually have to talk even large, well-funded organizations into upgrading their servers.
I would much appreciate some discussion of performance implications in the future articles of this series.
Thank you,
Ben Langton
Post #1008857
charles-600573
charles-600573
Posted Tuesday, October 26, 2010 10:26 PM
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Last Login: Thursday, January 03, 2013 12:28 AM
Points: 6,
Visits: 10
I am not sure I am missing something here.
You state:
"This example tracks the progress of auditing in just one table. All the tables in the database, without exception, operate on this same principle"
mmm.
Surely if you delete a record from the AdmUser Table (hopefully the constraint won't let you), it would mess up.
Cheers
Post #1011253
David Ziffer
David Ziffer
Posted Tuesday, October 26, 2010 10:38 PM
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Group: General Forum Members
Last Login: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 10:52 AM
Points: 69,
Visits: 177
charles-600573 (10/26/2010)
I am not sure I am missing something here.
You state:
"This example tracks the progress of auditing in just one table. All the tables in the database, without exception, operate on this same principle"
mmm.
Surely if you delete a record from the AdmUser Table (hopefully the constraint won't let you), it would mess up.
Cheers
Certainly you can put business rules in your app that prevent you from deleting things that should not be deleted. But that is (properly) up to the business rules, not the database.
Post #1011255
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