InstantForum.NET v2.9.0SQLServerCentralhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/notifications@sqlservercentral.comTue, 21 May 2013 20:44:33 GMT20http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1409723-391-1.aspxI think what's arrogant is for a developer to assume that they have the professional skills of another a DA/DBA job when they've [i]never[/i] done. Not sure why everyone assumes they can do what a DA/DBA does even w/ NO job experience; rather interesting phenomenon really.Are there exceptions? I'm sure there are. But you can't set up rules that handle the 0.1% of exceptions.I was a developer for several years, including OO (went to some OO design classes too). But I wouldn't presume to claim I'm currently qualified to [i]head up[/i] a development project, OO or not. Or even a code design project; although I believe I could provide valuable input on code design, I'm not qualified to [i]lead[/i] the process.Wed, 23 Jan 2013 08:26:07 GMTScottPletcherhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1409723-391-1.aspxDon't get me started! :w00t:I do however wish to hear the further discussion. :-PTue, 22 Jan 2013 23:28:29 GMTdwain.chttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1409723-391-1.aspx[quote][b]ScottPletcher (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]Sean Lange (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]ScottPletcher (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]Sean Lange (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]GilaMonster (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]Sean Lange (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]ScottPletcher (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]DiverKas (1/22/2013)[/b][hr]1) Do NOT let your C#/VB/ASP/Pascal guys design the database.2) Do NOT let your DBA's design the database.3) Hire a Data Architect.Just saying. The first 2 groups have very biased views of how data should be structured for VERY different reasons, neither of which usually solves the entire problem.[/quote]#2 is NOT necessarily true -- it depends on the DBA. I have long-term experience in all phases of the design process.Also, if you hire someone who's solely a Data Architect, then you have to hire an [i]additional[/i] person to convert the logical model into a physical model.[/quote]Neither is #1. There is no rule that says a developer is unable to design a proper database because they are a developer.[/quote]I'm a developer (SQL mostly, not front end). I'd argue that I can design at least a passably good database.[/quote]Gail we are saying the same thing. I think anytime someone starts segregating abilities based on job title they are destined to get snowballed. I too am a developer and would like to think I could cobble something usable together.[/quote]Perhaps. But I would not want someone who had not been a full-time database designer or DBA at some point to head a db design. Based on my past experiences, (almost) pure developers can't seem to forget [i]physical[/i] details long enough to do a proper [i]logical[/i] design. Any who could do it properly would be the rare exceptions, not the normal rule.[/quote]I agree it would be the exception but the "rules" as posted sounded like absolutes and I disagree with that sentiment.[/quote]Again, my exception is [i]only[/i] for someone who had 1+ years [i]full-time[/i] experience doing database design.Almost every developer I've ever met believes they can properly design a db; 99.9% of them have no real clue about how to do it properly, however. Ask them one thing, like:: Give a sample "supertype" with "subtypes" :: and they're completely lost.[/quote]Sadly it is not simply because they don't understand data modeling. Those same people could not identify a super class and subclass example in OOP either. Let's face it, there are far too many totally incompetent people in this field. By your definition I have no real clue about how to go about data modeling properly. I would disagree with you there. Am I the best? Absolutely not. But to simply discount my ability because it was not my primary job focus for at least a year comes across as arrogant and misguided. A person and the knowledge they possess go beyond the job title. Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:02:20 GMTSean Langehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1409723-391-1.aspx[quote][b]Sean Lange (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]ScottPletcher (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]Sean Lange (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]GilaMonster (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]Sean Lange (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]ScottPletcher (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]DiverKas (1/22/2013)[/b][hr]1) Do NOT let your C#/VB/ASP/Pascal guys design the database.2) Do NOT let your DBA's design the database.3) Hire a Data Architect.Just saying. The first 2 groups have very biased views of how data should be structured for VERY different reasons, neither of which usually solves the entire problem.[/quote]#2 is NOT necessarily true -- it depends on the DBA. I have long-term experience in all phases of the design process.Also, if you hire someone who's solely a Data Architect, then you have to hire an [i]additional[/i] person to convert the logical model into a physical model.[/quote]Neither is #1. There is no rule that says a developer is unable to design a proper database because they are a developer.[/quote]I'm a developer (SQL mostly, not front end). I'd argue that I can design at least a passably good database.[/quote]Gail we are saying the same thing. I think anytime someone starts segregating abilities based on job title they are destined to get snowballed. I too am a developer and would like to think I could cobble something usable together.[/quote]Perhaps. But I would not want someone who had not been a full-time database designer or DBA at some point to head a db design. Based on my past experiences, (almost) pure developers can't seem to forget [i]physical[/i] details long enough to do a proper [i]logical[/i] design. Any who could do it properly would be the rare exceptions, not the normal rule.[/quote]I agree it would be the exception but the "rules" as posted sounded like absolutes and I disagree with that sentiment.[/quote]Again, my exception is [i]only[/i] for someone who had 1+ years [i]full-time[/i] experience doing database design.Almost every developer I've ever met believes they can properly design a db; 99.9% of them have no real clue about how to do it properly, however. Ask them one thing, like:: Give a sample "supertype" with "subtypes" :: and they're completely lost.Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:44:50 GMTScottPletcherhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1409723-391-1.aspx[quote][b]ScottPletcher (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]Sean Lange (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]GilaMonster (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]Sean Lange (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]ScottPletcher (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]DiverKas (1/22/2013)[/b][hr]1) Do NOT let your C#/VB/ASP/Pascal guys design the database.2) Do NOT let your DBA's design the database.3) Hire a Data Architect.Just saying. The first 2 groups have very biased views of how data should be structured for VERY different reasons, neither of which usually solves the entire problem.[/quote]#2 is NOT necessarily true -- it depends on the DBA. I have long-term experience in all phases of the design process.Also, if you hire someone who's solely a Data Architect, then you have to hire an [i]additional[/i] person to convert the logical model into a physical model.[/quote]Neither is #1. There is no rule that says a developer is unable to design a proper database because they are a developer.[/quote]I'm a developer (SQL mostly, not front end). I'd argue that I can design at least a passably good database.[/quote]Gail we are saying the same thing. I think anytime someone starts segregating abilities based on job title they are destined to get snowballed. I too am a developer and would like to think I could cobble something usable together.[/quote]Perhaps. But I would not want someone who had not been a full-time database designer or DBA at some point to head a db design. Based on my past experiences, (almost) pure developers can't seem to forget [i]physical[/i] details long enough to do a proper [i]logical[/i] design. Any who could do it properly would be the rare exceptions, not the normal rule.[/quote]I agree it would be the exception but the "rules" as posted sounded like absolutes and I disagree with that sentiment.Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:50:55 GMTSean Langehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1409723-391-1.aspx[quote][b]Sean Lange (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]GilaMonster (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]Sean Lange (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]ScottPletcher (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]DiverKas (1/22/2013)[/b][hr]1) Do NOT let your C#/VB/ASP/Pascal guys design the database.2) Do NOT let your DBA's design the database.3) Hire a Data Architect.Just saying. The first 2 groups have very biased views of how data should be structured for VERY different reasons, neither of which usually solves the entire problem.[/quote]#2 is NOT necessarily true -- it depends on the DBA. I have long-term experience in all phases of the design process.Also, if you hire someone who's solely a Data Architect, then you have to hire an [i]additional[/i] person to convert the logical model into a physical model.[/quote]Neither is #1. There is no rule that says a developer is unable to design a proper database because they are a developer.[/quote]I'm a developer (SQL mostly, not front end). I'd argue that I can design at least a passably good database.[/quote]Gail we are saying the same thing. I think anytime someone starts segregating abilities based on job title they are destined to get snowballed. I too am a developer and would like to think I could cobble something usable together.[/quote]Perhaps. But I would not want someone who had not been a full-time database designer or DBA at some point to head a db design. Based on my past experiences, (almost) pure developers can't seem to forget [i]physical[/i] details long enough to do a proper [i]logical[/i] design. Any who could do it properly would be the rare exceptions, not the normal rule.Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:20:21 GMTScottPletcherhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1409723-391-1.aspx[quote][b]GilaMonster (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]Sean Lange (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]ScottPletcher (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]DiverKas (1/22/2013)[/b][hr]1) Do NOT let your C#/VB/ASP/Pascal guys design the database.2) Do NOT let your DBA's design the database.3) Hire a Data Architect.Just saying. The first 2 groups have very biased views of how data should be structured for VERY different reasons, neither of which usually solves the entire problem.[/quote]#2 is NOT necessarily true -- it depends on the DBA. I have long-term experience in all phases of the design process.Also, if you hire someone who's solely a Data Architect, then you have to hire an [i]additional[/i] person to convert the logical model into a physical model.[/quote]Neither is #1. There is no rule that says a developer is unable to design a proper database because they are a developer.[/quote]I'm a developer (SQL mostly, not front end). I'd argue that I can design at least a passably good database.[/quote]Gail we are saying the same thing. I think anytime someone starts segregating abilities based on job title they are destined to get snowballed. I too am a developer and would like to think I could cobble something usable together.Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:15:20 GMTSean Langehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1409723-391-1.aspx[quote][b]Sean Lange (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]ScottPletcher (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]DiverKas (1/22/2013)[/b][hr]1) Do NOT let your C#/VB/ASP/Pascal guys design the database.2) Do NOT let your DBA's design the database.3) Hire a Data Architect.Just saying. The first 2 groups have very biased views of how data should be structured for VERY different reasons, neither of which usually solves the entire problem.[/quote]#2 is NOT necessarily true -- it depends on the DBA. I have long-term experience in all phases of the design process.Also, if you hire someone who's solely a Data Architect, then you have to hire an [i]additional[/i] person to convert the logical model into a physical model.[/quote]Neither is #1. There is no rule that says a developer is unable to design a proper database because they are a developer.[/quote]I'm a developer (SQL mostly, not front end). I'd argue that I can design at least a passably good database.Tue, 22 Jan 2013 13:25:44 GMTGilaMonsterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1409723-391-1.aspx[quote][b]ScottPletcher (1/22/2013)[/b][hr][quote][b]DiverKas (1/22/2013)[/b][hr]1) Do NOT let your C#/VB/ASP/Pascal guys design the database.2) Do NOT let your DBA's design the database.3) Hire a Data Architect.Just saying. The first 2 groups have very biased views of how data should be structured for VERY different reasons, neither of which usually solves the entire problem.[/quote]#2 is NOT necessarily true -- it depends on the DBA. I have long-term experience in all phases of the design process.Also, if you hire someone who's solely a Data Architect, then you have to hire an [i]additional[/i] person to convert the logical model into a physical model.[/quote]Neither is #1. There is no rule that says a developer is unable to design a proper database because they are a developer.Tue, 22 Jan 2013 13:13:28 GMTSean Langehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1409723-391-1.aspxI believe u should also have thorough understanding on relationships and length, size of the variables. They cost u a lot when it comes to the performance.Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:23:20 GMTprathibha_aviatorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1409723-391-1.aspx[quote][b]DiverKas (1/22/2013)[/b][hr]1) Do NOT let your C#/VB/ASP/Pascal guys design the database.2) Do NOT let your DBA's design the database.3) Hire a Data Architect.Just saying. The first 2 groups have very biased views of how data should be structured for VERY different reasons, neither of which usually solves the entire problem.[/quote]#2 is NOT necessarily true -- it depends on the DBA. I have long-term experience in all phases of the design process.Also, if you hire someone who's solely a Data Architect, then you have to hire an [i]additional[/i] person to convert the logical model into a physical model.Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:15:36 GMTScottPletcherhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1409723-391-1.aspx1) Do NOT let your C#/VB/ASP/Pascal guys design the database.2) Do NOT let your DBA's design the database.3) Hire a Data Architect.Just saying. The first 2 groups have very biased views of how data should be structured for VERY different reasons, neither of which usually solves the entire problem.Tue, 22 Jan 2013 10:57:53 GMTDiverKashttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1409723-391-1.aspxWhat you really need is someone that has experience doing it, period. This is [i]not[/i] something that you can just "wing it".If you have to do it with no experience, just expect up front that you'll have to re-do things, sometimes the same thing multiple times.The next most important thing is to separate the logical and physical design phases -- do [i][b]NOT[/b][/i] allow [i][b]anyone[/b][/i] to skip the logical phase and immediately start designing "tables" or "indexes".Mon, 21 Jan 2013 15:13:53 GMTScottPletcherhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1409723-391-1.aspxMaybe start with this:[url]http://www.amazon.com/Server-Relational-Database-Implementation-Experts/dp/143020866X/[/url]Mon, 21 Jan 2013 15:10:26 GMTGilaMonsterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1409723-391-1.aspxwhat are things one need to always keep in mind when designing a new database for an applicationMon, 21 Jan 2013 14:52:51 GMTDBA24