InstantForum.NET v2.9.0SQLServerCentralhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/notifications@sqlservercentral.comThu, 23 May 2013 01:54:11 GMT20http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxI'm glad you like it. Good luck with your new career! @=)Fri, 13 Feb 2009 03:58:34 GMTBrandie Tarvinhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxHi Brandie,Your post is really very encouraging and refreshing! I almost start my current Job of DBA in similar ways like you. The most admirable message in your post is "Volunteer, Volunteer and Volunteer". Thanks for your article, it gives me the direction towards ,what actually I should do to make my job more intresting. -Reecha MishraThu, 12 Feb 2009 22:10:29 GMTReecha Mishrahttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxI have a test box. Actually, have one at work and one at home. Trust me, I blow them up regularly. Ended up with a test of CTE behavior causing the tempdb to use up the whole disk drive (it grew to over 200 Gig), just last week.But, for example, when I recently took a Brainbench DBA test, a huge number of questions were about sqlcmd, which I've never had a use for, so didn't know anything about. Never would have even bothered to learn about it, but now I'm going to look into it and see what it's really good for.That's why I want to mess around with certs. I would never have thought of playing with a command-line interface for SQL on my own. I pretty much dropped command-line interfaces for most of my computing when Windows 95 came out. I can still write .BAT files pretty well (too many years of DOS, though they were a [i]long[/i] time ago), but I don't see much need for that kind of thing these days.After seeing that on the test, and after reading many entries here, I have to ask myself, "how much else is there that I should know about but don't?" I can get the job done with T-SQL. I can tune the heck out of queries if given a little time. I can design and build a database that automates whole departments of a small/medium business. But what don't I know that might be tripping me up?Another example is I never played with SQL 2005 synonyms until yesterday. I'd heard of them, but never used/created one. They definitely are convenient. But what are all the ramifications of using them? I don't have the faintest clue. But I intend to find out!Wed, 19 Mar 2008 07:37:39 GMTGSquaredhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxGSquared,Might I suggest setting up a test lab or SOHO for yourself?There are a lot of PCs you can get at clearance at local computer shops (or shows) or even refurbed off of EBay and other auction sites. All you need is eval software for the OS and SQL Server and you can go to town.I do recommend doing your best to cause a SQL Server failure because sometimes the only way you learn how to solve a problem is if you create them in the first place. @=)Of course, I don't recommend the above technique on a Production box. Just on a test box set up specifically so you can "break" it.Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:47:57 GMTBrandie Tarvinhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxFor me, the certs are going to be more of a means of filling in the (huge) gaps in my knowledge.I'm totally self-trained on this, and it's mainly been by means of "well, that didn't work, what did I do wrong?" That means there are areas I haven't messed with, because they haven't exploded yet. So to speak.For example, you mentioned replication in your article. My one experience with replication was set up by someone else, and was a disaster. All I did was turn it off and remove it from the database and tell that guy to never, ever, ever touch my databases again. Never. Ever. So, I know how to turn replication off. That's it on that subject.I'm really more of a database developer with some slight knowledge of administration. I do administer databases, and got a passing grade on the Brainbench test on that (3.something grade), but I've never had to recover a badly crashed database, never yet set up mirroring (though I'm currently working on a project to do exactly that), never set up a cluster, etc. I have some theoretical knowledge on some of these things, but I don't even know how big the holes in my knowledge are.Thus, I'm hoping that studying for and getting certs will help me to target the important aspects of what I don't know. I can study forever on my own, but it's hard to figure out how important something is in that kind of vacuum.As I mentioned, I ended up being a "DBA" by accident. Seven years ago, I was a sales/marketing person, and I created a database to track my own customers and their orders. A year later, with everyone in the company using my database, I ended up being a full-time dev/admin for that database. (You should have seen the first version of the database. Not even 1NF. It was horrible! But it got the job done.) That background has the advantage of being able to very, very easily translate user-needs in very precise specifications for coding, but it does mean that my knowledge is heuristic in nature, and lacking in large areas.(My education is in management and business administration, so that also helps in determining what software should do and so on, but again doesn't help when it comes to the day-to-day of being a DBA.)Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:13:44 GMTGSquaredhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxGlad you enjoyed it, GSquared.I won't say that certs are the only way to get a DBA job, but they definitely help those who come from different industries and have never been near a SQL Server in a RL job. However, as others have pointed out, sometimes its who you know and how you present yourself that gets you the job.Whichever the case is, "Try, try again" is a good motto to keep in mind.Tue, 18 Mar 2008 04:06:57 GMTBrandie Tarvinhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxGood article.I ended up as a DBA by accident. I don't have the certs yet, but will definitely get them.Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:39:19 GMTGSquaredhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxIn my corner of the world of IT, I have found that experience is definately much more important than any degree or certification. In fact, I have yet run into an employer who has put any emphasis degrees or certifications.I have taken some classes to prepare for the MCDBA certification tests; but never taken the tests. Test and I are not friends. :) At this point there is not really any motivation to spend the time or money to acquire these certifications. I do have 15+ years under my belt as a developer and that may be why it is not as important for me; but an employer considering someone with less than 3 years experience may have a different expectation.Having said that, the old saying of "It's not what you know it's who you know" is very true with securing a job. Many opportunities come about when you are excercising your peer networking muscles. Giving a newbie a chance is much more likely when you are recommended by a trusted source. Although, I would add to that old saying that it's what you know that keeps you there.Thu, 29 Nov 2007 10:31:21 GMTJohn Magnaboscohttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxThank you very much Clive and other friend who are very kind on the group and help out.NadeemThu, 29 Nov 2007 10:14:15 GMTNadeemKPhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxI have to agree with Timothy. It depends on what your employer of choice is looking for.I originally used the cert material as a method of learning the basics of SQL Server. After I got into it, I realized that I needed some validation of what I had spent 2 years teaching myself, so I got the certification as my "proof of education." I'm not sure if the MCSA cert I got also helped with the job hunt or not. It taught me a lot about server OS's and validated my previous unofficial server/pc admin experience. The info I learned while studying for it had definitely helped me resolve problems since I became a DBA. I think all DBAs should know about the platforms their systems are running on. Since most of my previous experience is in PC support, though, I'm a little biased on that fact. @=)Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:39:59 GMTBrandie Tarvinhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspx[quote][b]Clive Strong (11/29/2007)[/b][hr]Check out the microsoft sites for the content. Also check Amazon for the study guides.Also, I disagree that you need certification...Its a nice to have and yes, I agree, stands out a bit more on your cv/resume. I don't have one and nor did I go to University and get a degree, but here I am.Experience counts for a hell of a lot.I must admit, my views are somewhat tarnished around the certifications after reading Brandie's story! Granted a lot of work and effort was put in to obtain the certification, but if someone with no real world experience can get certified, to me, it doesn't carry much weight as something that truly sets people apart.[/quote]A lot of it depends on what else is on your resume. If you have solid experience and a degree that is directly related, then the certification will probably mean little or nothing. I on the other hand moved into IT from a somewhat related but different field and hold a degree in mathematics. My employer was quite up front about the fact that my MCP (working towards MCDBA), while not the only factor, played a role in getting my foot in the door when I made that switch.So the biggest question with certifications is if your potential employer values them, but they can certainly help especially if you are just moving into IT or making a switch within IT.Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:29:09 GMTtimothyawisemanhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxAhhh yes, the good old days when I thought 1) Access was powerfull and 2) I knew database design! :hehe:Thu, 29 Nov 2007 05:04:06 GMTClive Stronghttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxYou're correct there. The closest I got was when I started creating MS Access databases for various things while I worked for the records management firm. I was the vendor contact / supply orderer and my predecessor kept his information in spreadsheets. I decided to try my hand at database development and put the information in a couple of Access DBs.They certainly weren't the greatest, but they worked. And I learned 2 lessons. 1) What relational databases really are and 2) I really didn't have a clue about database design. @=)Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:59:40 GMTBrandie Tarvinhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxHey Brandie,I realised after I sent the post that "real world experience" was not want I meant - it was purely meant that you had no experience of being a DBA in a production environment.Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:54:08 GMTClive Stronghttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspx[b]Clive[/b], I didn't say I had no Real World experience. I said I had no professional experience. Professional = Paid official job title.My father was a computer programmer, the original punch-card kind. I grew up around computers as they were coming into their own and becoming home computers. I learned from scratch how to program in Assembly, Pascal, Fortran, Cobol and Lotus 1-2-3. I learned from scratch how to put the pieces together and make a system work. I used Gopher and Archie & learned Basic on the Apple II E. And my dad wouldn't let us use the state of the art Commodore 64 he bought unless we learned how to treat it properly."A computer is NOT a toy," he told us.Part of the reason I became a DBA was because I loved doing all this stuff on the side. I figured if I could do it for myself, there wasn't any reason I shouldn't get paid for it. The problem was convincing everyone who got burned in the Tech Bust that I wasn't blowing smoke and I actually knew my way around computers. That's why I put so much work into learning the relational database stuff.[b]Nadeem[/b], the MCDBA is soon to be an out of date cert. Look at one of my posts above and you'll see a URL link to Microsoft detailing the newest set of SQL Server certs. I really recommend those instead of the MCDBA, unless you're still on a SQL Server 2000 system and need them for your PDS Review. And I still want to know what you're waiting for from your friend. @=) I'd like to see if it's something the group here can help you with.Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:22:03 GMTBrandie Tarvinhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxCheck out the microsoft sites for the content. Also check Amazon for the study guides.Also, I disagree that you need certification...Its a nice to have and yes, I agree, stands out a bit more on your cv/resume. I don't have one and nor did I go to University and get a degree, but here I am.Experience counts for a hell of a lot.I must admit, my views are somewhat tarnished around the certifications after reading Brandie's story! Granted a lot of work and effort was put in to obtain the certification, but if someone with no real world experience can get certified, to me, it doesn't carry much weight as something that truly sets people apart.Thu, 29 Nov 2007 02:34:17 GMTClive Stronghttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxHi pal,My name is Nadeem. I have degree of Masters in Computer Science and 10 years experience on Database designing and development. Now a days it is necessary to have certification, which I don't have. I want to start selfpaced study of MCDBA. Can any tell me about the stuff required for MCDBA / MCSA. I would appriciate.Thanks and regards,NadeemWed, 28 Nov 2007 21:09:43 GMTNadeemKPhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxNice - Must admit, I've only been using 2005 in anger for 3 months, so I didn't look for any new certifications.Suppose I should do it. Maybe I should give up practicing the golf and work on certs....No doubt, with the certs, I'll have something to show for the hardwork other than tears as another ball slices way off to the right! :DWed, 28 Nov 2007 08:29:54 GMTClive Stronghttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspx[quote][b]Brandie Tarvin (11/28/2007)[/b][hr]Clive,They didn't introduce just one new cert. They introduced 4 of them. @=) All new SQL Server 2005 certification information can be found at the following link:http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/mcts/sql/default.mspxHope this helps you out. ;)[/quote]Actually - it's FIVE... They introduced the "big mama" of certs on top of the other 4 - the Microsoft Certified Architect (Database), which has as a prerequisite two of the certs you mentioned.....All I can say is - wow, who has that kind of time? 5 weeks in Redmond on my employer's dime? yeah, THAT's going to happen.Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:26:50 GMTMatt Miller (#4)http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxClive,They didn't introduce just one new cert. They introduced 4 of them. @=) All new SQL Server 2005 certification information can be found at the following link:http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/mcts/sql/default.mspxHope this helps you out. ;)Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:16:01 GMTBrandie Tarvinhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxMCITP?!! I didn't even realise MS had introduced a new cert!CheersWed, 28 Nov 2007 08:03:29 GMTClive Stronghttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxIf you've been a DBA for 8 years already, go for the MCITP instead (SQL 2005 -and possibly 2008- certs). It'll look much better on your job history. @=)Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:55:21 GMTBrandie Tarvinhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxNice article. I have a few friends who are interested in IT and would like to try and get into it. I'll pass this article on.As for the MCDBA - I should really do that after being a DBA for 8 years!!Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:45:04 GMTClive Stronghttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspx[quote] but I am still waiting for a good friend to help me out [/quote]Ummm.... I wouldn't wait... take the bull by the horns and get to where you want to be...Wed, 28 Nov 2007 00:30:48 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxNicely done, Brandie. Great success story and a great motivational story. I'll throw in that whether you have the schooling or not, you can get there if you want it bad enough. The schooling will certainly help, but the volunteer work you did just to earn some stripes in the trade was a brilliant move on your part. Your eager-to-help/make-a-difference attitude sure paid off in spades! Well done!Wed, 28 Nov 2007 00:24:52 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxI can't agree more with your stress on volunteering and on being willing to work your way up from the bottom. Having worked in tech support, I also agree with your emphasis on soft skills. There are few jobs that you can do completely alone, and if you have to work on a team, you need to be able to work with them.Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:15:41 GMTtimothyawisemanhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxAll, I'm glad my article is generating such positive responses. For those currently going a similar Non-IT to DBA route, I hope my experiences help you along the way.Nadeem7971, I'm not sure what you mean by the following:[quote]but I am still waiting for a good friend to help me out how to get success in MCDAB.[/quote]What are you needing from your friend in regards to the MCDBA?Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:07:37 GMTBrandie Tarvinhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspx[font="Comic Sans MS"]Nice work to do. I am also passing from the same =situation but I am still waiting for a good friend to help me out how to get success in MCDAB. Although I have experience of 05 years working with MS SQL Server 2000, VB 6.0 and Crystal Reports but cant decide where to go?[/font]Mon, 26 Nov 2007 22:18:31 GMTNadeemKPhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspx:)Thanks for this article!I have been working for the same company for almost 20 years, worked up from the bottom. Since the original owners retired and sold the company 2 years ago, life has been miserable. The new owners took us to Chap. 11 reorganization and we just recently were bought out by another company. After several years devoted to caring for my late husband and raising children I decided it was time to change the situation. After considerable thought I decided to get my MCDBA, getting ready to take vendor exam 70-229 tomorrow. Many of my jobs within the company have centered around creating reports for management using ODBC and that is what lead me toward the MCDBA.Your article is just what I have been looking for. I wanted some info on how to break into IT when you technically do not have any true background in the field.The information about volunteering is excellent and I know of several possibilities to explore.Again just wanted to say THANKS, your article will be most useful.PS. Anyone out there in the Kansas City area, I am looking for work in the field. My work history and references are excellent.lblsi@yahoo.comMon, 26 Nov 2007 11:54:48 GMTlblsihttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxI would agree with Brandie in that's it's experience you'll want after getting a cert. Volunteer to get that experience under the belt even if it's not strictly database work. My career path evolved into a dba from a security guard through volunteering to work in an old dBase database for the small firm, then once I could say I had some pc experience on my resume, into several help desk and system administration jobs for progressively bigger and bigger firms, including a software company we all know. And while I didn't move directly into a dba role in my current firm until after I was hired as a system administrator, I volunteered for the opportunity to be a dba when it became available and had the experience on my resume to back it up.Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:14:54 GMTjerimy stanleyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxBrandie,Thanks for the encouraging article. I'm right at the beginning of the same process you went through. It's good to read about a success story. JamesMon, 26 Nov 2007 09:27:59 GMTEarthandAllStarshttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxGreat article, Brandie!!!And thanks :blush:Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:53:56 GMTSteve Jones - SSC Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxGood article Brandie. I would add to this that a good place to start "at the bottom" would be at a nonprofit or small government agency. In many cases, these types of organizations are not able to attract highly experienced IT workers due to salary constraints of their limited budgets, so it can be a good place for a person with limited experience to get his/her foot in the proverbial door. My career as a database dev started this way - I worked for a nonprofit as a systems technician and volunteered to administer the lone SQL Server in the place. One SQL Server became two, two became four, and suddenly I'm a DBA.Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:48:15 GMTTim Mitchellhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxThanks for the article. I am happy some one else is preaching the same message I am doing. Fortunately I had a degree in computer science but with very limited experience. But I worked at small firms that did not last or struggled. I did virtually everything, Network Admin, PC tech, DBA, Programmer, Tester, Analyst, Consultant. We did not have the resources to pay anyone else for this. Today I am doing well in a position that most of my peers have more than twice the experience I have. And the icing on the cake, I just got an offer for a job doing the same thing I do today but twice the income. In less than 5 years, will be making about 5 times what I started with. The key is doing what no one else want to do or care to do, get your hands dirty. And yes most people say certs don't matter. But if you are just starting out, it does matter a lot. I am MCSD, MCAD, MCP. Take care men. You are proof that hard work pays off.Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:43:07 GMTOsa Ohttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxAndy Warren said:[quote]Good stuff, even if I don't rank up there with Brian & Steve! [/quote]On the contrary, Andy. You definitely rank up there with those two! Your articles have helped me get through many a tough spot at work. (Thank you, thank you, thank you). But if I listed everyone who was better at SQL than I am, I'd never get to the point of the article. @=)I guess I'm lucky in my current job. Every time I turn around, I get to learn something new. At first it was SSRS for SQL 2000. Then it was SQL 2k5 and SSIS. Now I'm just about to start learning SSAS for a current project, something I haven't had a chance to play with yet in any position. Plus I've been forced to learn the theoretical basics about BI in the past 6 months for the same project. I don't get to use my hard-earned Replication skills at this job, but I am getting exposed to a number of different SQL tools that I only ever understood on an intellectual level. So contrary to your advice, I think I'll stick with this job for a while longer. They like me, I like them and I'm still on a major learning curve that can only help me in the future. @=)Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:18:26 GMTBrandie Tarvinhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxGood stuff, even if I don't rank up there with Brian & Steve!Seriously though, I think you did a pretty good job of building and executing a plan as best you could with a lot of unknowns. The one thing I would add is that in general the first real SQL job should not be a long term job. Spend 1-3 years to learn the ropes and give back some value in return for them hiring you, then it move on to a new job where you can most likely earn more money and get a new set of challenges. Many people that that first big break and start thinking "I've arrived!" and wind up with a lot of gaps in their skills. Changing jobs, or attempting to, will expose those gaps in a hurry.Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:04:44 GMTAndy Warrenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxHi BrandieThanks for the advice. I spent Thanksgiving weekend studying for my MCTS exam because I have a BA in English and a Master's in Public Administration and I want to work as a DBA and in business intelligence. Reading your article on this Monday morning has been encouraging.:)Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:03:01 GMTVincent Millerhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxThat's a good point, John. Unfortunately, when I was studying for my cert, I didn't know of any local users groups. They don't advertise very well in my area. And when I searched the local papers for one, I never could find one.One thing I did forget to mention, though, was that I did participate in SQL Server forums and subscribe to a lot of e-newsletters during this time. At first I just lurked. Finally, when I thought I had learned something, I started posting both questions and answers to others' questions.I did embarrass myself more than once answering a question wrong (and still do sometimes), but it taught me a lot when people were kind enough to point out my errors and tell me where I could get more information on the subject in question.Mon, 26 Nov 2007 04:37:36 GMTBrandie Tarvinhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxI would add that participation in a local user group is a key part of this learning as well as getting to know others in the field. There are many beginners who stay away from user groups because they are fearful of not understanding the topic or are shy about revealing their lack of experience to those in attendance. Just remember that everyone there is to learn. I often say that the more I learn, the more I learn that there is more to learn.I am a co-founder of a local SQL Server user group and I cannot begin to express how much the user group has enhanced my experience as an IT professional!Mon, 26 Nov 2007 04:28:35 GMTJohn Magnaboscohttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic425536-371-1.aspxGood points...and since IT is such a vaaaaast field (even a DBA job nowadays) it has happened to me over & over.Started as a Civil Engineer (those guys laying roads, standing in the middle of a limestone storm with goggles & scarf over mouth - that's what convinced me to change!), had helped a depot fix their budgeting models in Lotus123, got the opening into MS Access 1.0 and panicked.A crash course in relational DB's + a LOT of playing around in my spare time and then realised I needed more power - enter VB3.Again it was like staring into a bottomless abyss - even searching for beginners literature seemed to return a thousand strange and confusing terms, like a foreign language. Hey, it WAS a foreign language!But, like eating an elephant (1 bite at a time) the balance slowly tipped and I began to understand more terms than I did not.Again a lot of playing around - I find taking apart other people's code gets me 80% of the way in 20% of the time, then I use books to fill in the gaps - and I emigrated. Had jack-of-all-master-of-none skills in a "it's not in my job description" country, but got a job programming in VB5...I had a month to become productive as part of my evaluation.Then I bumped into SQL Server 6.5 - looked like a return to Unix and again a baulk, but the tides tipped eventually and paved the way for a SQL7 job making it dance a Russian Cossack.Eventually .Net arrived and VB.Net suddenly looked nothing like VB and more.And no-one wanted to employ someone without the word "dot" in their skillset.So more after hours playing...choose a project (a web service - bit of a high goal, but the concept appealed and the floundering humbled my ego a little :-) ) and wittle away, re-writing it, improving it until again I could understand some of the terminology in the user forums!So I heartily concur - you may end up at the bottom of the tree again, but you can prepare beforehand and if you stick to it you'll soon be further up.And thank goodness people started hiring based on potential instead of bits of paper...you still get both (sometimes a "grunt" is needed, but they're usually low paid, thankless jobs) but there's enough of a market out there that, in an interview, you don't need to stretch the truth - "nope - not had time to do that yet, but it appeals to me, reckon I could pick it up in a week"...and, with the way things progress, you'll have the new productivity enhancing Visual X language to learn next month anyway!Sun, 25 Nov 2007 22:35:01 GMTAndrew-152680