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RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Helen Joyce — Tue, 29 May 2007 07:43:00 GMT

Thanks, Bill, for your honest appraisal of SQL Backup and Litespeed. Both are capable of completing backup activities quickly and accurately, and they certainly enable DBAs to work far beyond the capabilities of native SQL Server for backup tasks.

As Project Manager of SQL Backup at Red Gate Software, of course I’m proud of the consistently high performance of SQL Backup and all its features. It’s no secret, though, that SQL Backup has features that Litespeed does not have, and vice-versa. This kind of variation between tools is natural in such a competitive market, and I agree with Bill that DBAs cannot really go far wrong with either solution. I would strongly recommend that everyone tries out both SQL Backup and Litespeed in their own environments to see which tool is most suited to their circumstances, working practices and budget. By the way, we’re always happy to answer any questions or hear feedback about SQL Backup, so do get in touch, either with our toll-free numbers or email addresses, as shown on the Red Gate website or through the forums here and we’ll be pleased to help!

Helen Joyce

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Hugh Thomas — Fri, 25 May 2007 06:59:00 GMT

I think most of you all need to get a life . For crying out loud, does anyone really expect a free lunch? If you aren't mature or informed enough to know how the world works, you don't deserve the rich, informative, and highly valuable information that is being provided to you, the end-user, for FREE!!!

In full-disclosure, I'm just a poor shmoe trying to get by using my SQL skills and always needing to learn from experts in the field.

Thanks for the continuing great newsletters (to Steve, Andy, Red-Gate,... heck, whoever funds it and delivers the info. Does it matter?)

Hugh

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Bill Wehnert — Thu, 24 May 2007 06:40:00 GMT

I've used both Litespeed (for about 2 1/2 years) and now SQL Backup for about 7 months. Overall, both products do the job intended and do it well.

Litespeed has the ability to replace the built in commands of SQL Server so that if you issue the standard backup commands (like using their Maintenance Plans for backups) - you will still be able to take advantage of the compression/encryption.

Both have standalone decompressors, so you can decompress/decrypt a backup on a machine that doesn't have the software installed in order to restore your DB.

SQL Backup does have a Lite version that will allow you to decompress/decrypt the backups from their Pro version - when last I used Litespeed - they did not have this ability - it may have changed now. This option is great because you can get a lesser version for your developers so that they can restore the DB locally for their own work - without having to have as much space as the full decompressed backup would require. Plus it's a LOT faster to restore the compressed object, rather than the decompressed object.

I think that SQL Backup does perform better in both compression and encryption time than Litespeed does. With a big database (mines rather small at 40GB) the faster the better - I get my backup down to about 7gb compressed/encrypted.

I think given all of the issues with people losing hard drives with sensitive information, it's only going to be a matter of time that we hear of some ISP losing a set of backup tapes with companies data on it. Having it encrypted gives me a little insurance against this happening. Not to mention the space savings in both backups and that I can now keep a weeks worth of backups on a local drive in case of a failure.

In my own experience, Red-Gate's support staff is more responsive and I got answers/feedback much more quickly from them (even on their forums) than I did with Quest.

Both are good companies and they stand behind their products, so I don't think you'll lose in going with either one.

Bill

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Wed, 04 Apr 2007 09:44:00 GMT

Not sure what you mean for "recommended".Both Litespeed and SQL Backup are good products. They work slightly different ways and are better situated in different situations.I'd talk to both companies, try them both, and spend an afternoon thinking about which better fits your orgaznition.

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

nunYoBidnez — Wed, 04 Apr 2007 07:14:00 GMT

Well isn't this special! We are considering LiteSpeed, is it recommended or not????

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Tatsu — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:20:00 GMT

Thank you Nick. The only reason I was watching this thread was to get a response to the item raised in the initial post.

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Nick Warren-382826 — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 04:49:00 GMT

Over the past two days, there have been some comments posted in forums about Red Gate Software's licensing agreement for SQL Backup. The clause in the license agreement referred to in these posts is designed to prevent the use of a single license on multiple machines by continually transferring the license between machines. We can see, however, that the wording of the license can be interpreted in a different, more sinister way. It was never intended to stop people from transferring licenses in the case of upgrades, replacement of old equipment, reorganization, or any other legitimate reason, and we apologize if customers or prospective customers interpreted it this way.I believe that any customer who does business with Red Gate Software knows that we operate in an atmosphere of trust and respect. We are working now on changing our licensing terms to make our policies clear. In the meantime, if anybody is concerned about this issue, please contact me directly at nick.warren@red-gate.com.While we welcome competitive comparisons of products in open forums, the recent postings regarding our licensing issues seem to carry another purpose: to spread unwarranted fear and alarm in an effort to undermine Red Gate's credibility. We do not think that this is the purpose of forums, and we will not engage in these types of exchanges.As for the suitability of SQL Backup in an enterprise environment, nearly 4000 customers -- including many Fortune 500 companies -- have selected Red Gate's product as the best choice for critical backup needs. We invite you to compare our products to our competitors in an environment of full disclosure, and send your comments to us, or post them on public forums, where we will be glad to respond.Nick Warren

Head of Customer Support, Red Gate Software

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:35:00 GMT

And for the last word today... This was an interesting debate. However I agree with Loner that we should get back on topic.Red Gate has promised a "licensing clarification" tomorrow that I hope to see in their forum and unless I hear from Mr. Boule or someone at Quest, I shall drop this matter.

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Brian Lockwood — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 14:47:00 GMT

I'm sick of the rantings about my rantings!

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

rudy - Doctor "X" — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 14:42:00 GMT

Go get 'em Steve !

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Loner — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 14:11:00 GMT

Can we go back and talk about SQL Server and its own tools?

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 14:07:00 GMT

Thanks and please let me know if I'm ranting too much.Maybe it's time to go back to talking about windmills and cool cars

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

joshcsmith13 — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:42:00 GMT

I'm with Rudy. I am sick of rantings (and re-rantings) on this site. I happen to use a few of Mr. Lockwood's tools, and I find them very useful. Unfortunately, his incessant griping is beginning to leave a bad taste in my mouth. Yes, this may not be related to the original subject of this thread, but neither are the numerous "points" that have been brought up for re-hashing.

Steve, keep up the good work! I always look forward to reading your editorials, and am grateful for all the work that you have put into this site.

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Brian Lockwood — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:38:00 GMT

I think it's ironic that this is perhaps the worst post in the entire thread - it contains no relevant information or even logical arguments - and YOU are complaining about people wasting time? ahhhh - ok ....

if you have a point I have missed it. also note this was posted in the vendor section - are vendors not supposed to comment in this section. coupled with the fact nobody else does this section should remain real quiet!

I don't recall anybody asking for "special treatment". I haven't - I don't believe Quest has. To the contrary I've asked SSC to apply the same rigid standards of disclosure/disclaimers they apply to posters they "out" to themselves.

At the risk of having you "waste" another 5 minutes I'd suggest you reread this thread - this time more slowly.

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

rudy - Doctor "X" — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:52:00 GMT

I have not read the blog post yet but I have completed the present thread. I'm a bit steamed at the foo-foo-rah caused by this alleged incident.

Now moving on to those who are vendors posting to discussions. You are not special. You are just one or a few of 400,000+ community. I read and sometimes participate in your discussion(s) just as others in the community. Each and every one of the community can have item(s) removed if the posted material is questionable or objectionable. Moderator(s), have a responsibility over things of this nature <PERIOD> Now do I hear a vast outcry about censorship from the 400,000+ members in this community over this ? NO ! Remember, again, it is a discussion forum. There are moderators. Content can be removed at will by those who allow its use <PERIOD> So, you vendors, what entitles you to special treatment ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING !

Now let us get on to the more sublime aspect - your 'free' publicity in forums such as this. Incidents like this only servers to galvanize my resolve to not use any of your products and recommend the same to all that I know.

One final note to those vendors fueling this ... think of the vast amount of time/resources (MONEY) that you have wasted that is not yours.

400,000 members
5 minutes to read the read the thread
2,000,000 minutes, 3,333 hours, or 1.6 man years

I have not even accounted for time to digest, mull and respond to this foo-foo-rah. What a waste. Yup, it is on you, the vendors !!!

Well, I will now do some real work, then eat lunch and read the blog mentioned.

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Loner — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:19:00 GMT

Sorry Brian. It was Bob.

But my idea was just put out the link would be enough and the title, well, let people be the judge.

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Brian Lockwood — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:01:00 GMT

this was the title of the article in question

http://weblog.infoworld.com/dbunderground/archives/2007/02/use_redgates_ba.html

the Quest guy just copied this title as the subject of his post(s).

you might have me confused with someone else - I don't care what is posted in Quest forums. hmmm - maybe *I'm* a Quest employee too and I don't even know it.

everytime I come back to "SQL Community 1984" I get real confused ....

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:53:00 GMT

A couple comments. I'm not saying I was right, but I think I did what I would have done last year or the year before.I stated that I wasn't an employee of Red Gate. I definitely work for them and I definitely get paid by them under contract. It's a distinction and while I might not be completely unbiased, I wasn't before either when Quest, Apex, sqlSentry and others paid my salary in addition to Red Gate through advertising.If you'd like an omnibudsman, I'd be interested to know how we can get someone to do it without pay. Or who's indepdendent. Post some answers and I'd certainly entertain Mr. Bill or Mr. Kelley's comments.Brian, we haven't always agreed, maybe rarely, but I do give you credit for standing behind your comments. I think I have always done the same and I don't appreciate you implying otherwise.The "Supported by" wasn't a good term and I got it changed. I responded to comments and criticisms from the community. And I will continue to do so. I think I would have done it last year. I also don't think I called it a crime, but bad manners. And a potential copyright violation, not for sure.I'm happy for people to disagree and tell me I'm wrong. Heck, I'm probably wrong more than right on a lot of things. Despite my disagreement, I appreciate hearing your thoughts.

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Brian Lockwood — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:51:00 GMT

Stephanie,

I'm not trying to obfuscate the issue - I agree 100% with what you say about Bob. I don't absolve Bob from anything and condemn his actions. The more I looked at this the worse it looked to me.

But let's hold this site to the same high standard as we hold Bob - can we agree on that?

My problem is the hypocrisy. Steve outs Bob for failing to disclose who he works for but is guilty of the same exact thing.

a note on plagarism as well. A few year's back, I reported a guy who had illegally obtained source code to one of our apps (when we sold source). He changed some icons and posted it as his app. then advertised briefly on this site. When I complained about it to SSC and even offered to send them proof Steve's retort was "his money is as good as yours but if you win in a lawsuit we'll take down the banner". Ironically this vendor's money WASN'T as good as mine - as he never paid his bill - which I thought was poetic justice.

But again - it's convenient to have high ethics when it doesn't cost you anything (calling out people who plagarize articles) but as soon as money is involved then things are different. This guy was giving SSC money so I would have had to spend $50K and 2 years to sue him in order for Steve to do the right thing. Right now Red-Gate is giving this site money - does it have an effect? you tell me.

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Loner — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:47:00 GMT

Brian

If you want to warn people about the licensing, you can just put the title 'licensing' and put the link in the post. The title was a bit 'hostile'.

You don't want people going to Quest forum and put down hostile title, do you?

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Brian Lockwood — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:36:00 GMT

Ninja,

I agree this posting was bad. I went back and looked at the different threads and this was *worse* than I originally thought. I don't defend this guy's original post and in fact I condemn it. (on probably more levels than most people would since I think it also detracts from my points about this site)

But my major problem is Steve seems to be above the law - he is the judge, jury and executioner for posters and yet won't hold himself to the same high standard. He is the arbitrator of the bogus disclaimers on the site itself - and only caved due to pressure from the community to change "Supported by Red-Gate" but then swoops in on some knucklehead posting crap using his real name like he is the town sherriff.

What this site desperately needs is an Ombudsman - someone who ISN'T a paid employee of Red-Gate (or "contracted with" Red-Gate using the orwellian vernacular on this site) and who everyone agrees has some creds in this community.

I have some suggestions

SQLBill shoots pretty straight

Brian Kelly is also a good guy who calls it like he sees it.

This ombudsman has no power but has a column where he can state what he thinks on issues. My guess is that any ombudman worth his salt would be extremely negative about how this site is currently managed (competitors kicked off, bogus disclosures, bogus About page, hypocrisy) until some things change

The problem with money is it corrupts - not all at once but one ethical lapse at a time. a false disclaimer here, a bit of hypocrisy there, some double standards here. What we are witnessing is Red-Gate corrupting a venerable institution a little bit at a time.

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Brian Lockwood — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:23:00 GMT

I agree on the whole "contract with Red-Gate" thing. The issue of Steve claiming HE is "running the site" (vs RG) to me is the ultimate disclosure hypocrisy - given his zeal in "outing" of others.

where I grew up if you took money from someone over an extended period of time and weren't giving them anything but your labor ... you were working for them! Only in the Orwellian netherworld of sqlservercentral/red-gate do owners "support the site" vs owning it, or "sponser ads" vs owning them, or "contract with" people rather than employ them.

somewhere between Red-Gate's offer and Steve's acceptance he lost his way and became an enabler. Steve has managed the mechanics of this site well - but his constant equivocation and foot dragging on critical issues of disclosure - coupled with his aggressive stance in outing other companies tells me he's no longer independent but just another cog in the Red-Gate marketing/propaganda machine.

for the record this guys original post was at best stupid - I went back and it was worse than what I thought originally. but it's a drop in the bucked compared to the scale of the fraudulent disclosure/disclaimers Red-Gate has attempted to foist on this community and continues to do so with Steve's active assistance.

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Ninja's_RGR'us — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:10:00 GMT

Just to finish this off.

Brian, what would you want done if someone posted this "use x software and have your mother killed"? (ok a little more to the extreme but still...) Especially flooding this on 8 different threads in 2 minutes.

I agree that this site should allow free speech but there are clearly some cases where the cost of free speech is a little too high. And I think this one was on that very short list of things to take care of. I would not feel right with this plagarism in the first place, but a competitor doing this without full disclosure just seems wrong to me too.

I can understand for a need to "undermine" the competition when you are in business. But it has to be done in a more obvious way. Right now I'm thinking about the apple VS pc commercials that seem to have run for over 2 years. While I don't agree with everything said in those commercials, I, as a customer, have the benefit of seing both points of views and choosing either product. There was no such obvious choice in this case unless you knew who Bob Boule was.

Disclaimer: I just work for myself and I'm not associated with any software vendor.

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Stephanie J Brown — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 06:51:00 GMT

Hm, there are people complaining that Steve "outed" Bob (which I take to mean that we all know now who Bob works for), and then others who state that Bob was trying sooo hard to hide that he used his real name.

Sorry, folks - I didn't know who Bob worked for until today, so using his real name is NOT an indication of who he works for. If I had read his original post, I would have assumed that he was a a DBA or a developer, not a vendor.

The issues with the post were two-fold: # 1 Bob should have identified himself as a competitor against the product he was addressing. I don't really care who else does what - either Bob is ethical, or he isn't. #2 If Bob wanted to share the information in someone elses blog, he could have simply included the link (as Steve did on editting the post) and noted the general topic matter. If Bob is intelligent enough to be a Product Manager, then he knows what plagarism is, and he knows why it should not be done - again we're back to ethics here, and this is pretty basic stuff.

Bob made a mistake - and he got caught and exposed. Hopefully he'll learn something from it. But trying to obfuscate the issue by dredging up "censorship" issues and attacking Steve is a mistake too.

I agree that this site needs to be clear about who owns it and runs it. But that does not absolve anyone else who uses the site from being ethical.

Disclaimer: I don't work for any software vendors, and the opinions expressed are my own.

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Wesley Brown — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 02:37:00 GMT

In the fairness of "Full Disclosure" I also use to be the product manager for LiteSpeed.I think this was mishandled all the way around. Bob was trying so hard to "hide" he worked for Quest he used his real name! I have also always used my real name and my personal email address. I never used my Imceda or Quest email address after that.Steve, you know Sean over at Infoworld, if you really thought there was a copyright violation you could have easily contacted him, or asked Bob to do the things you wanted him to do to fix the post, he would have done it in a second. Was his post bad form? Sure. Was it a crime against the State? Not quite. If you "contract" for someone, you work for that someone. I contract to several companies at the moment. I work AND represent them all, If I didn't want that responsibility I wouldn't have taken the money. Saying your not an employee of Red Gate implies you don't represent them. Just because you don't know the licensing details doesn't absolve you from being a spokesperson for them. This is what people were talking about at the summit, that this site would loose it's objectivity. I have a hard time believing you would have done this last year when Quest was still a sponsor of the site, but I have been wrong before, I know you can get very passionate about a subject once it is on your mind.As far as disclosure, I am not an employee of Quest but I am a friend to Bob and to say he doesn't have the stones to do something is like saying the Pope is Protestant.Cheers,Wes

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Stewart Joslyn — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 01:50:00 GMT

Brian, Steve has included the link to the source in his edited post at the top of this thread so its not being censored - he just removed it from here as inappropriate. I would say that is ethical editorship (if that's a word!).

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Brian Lockwood — Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:32:00 GMT

Steve -

although I agree this is potentially "dirty pool" (although I can't tell since you've edited the post) - I don't think you have the moral authority anymore to question disclosure issues.

You allowed Red-Gate to falsely label this site as "Supported by Red-Gate" and only changed it after outcry by the community. Red-Gate ran ads in newsletter as "sponsered by [some red-gate product]" - which was a total misrepresentation perpetrated on this community.

You continue to allow the false inference that you are "in charge" -as per the About section. When you work for Red-Gate (Red-Gate is mentioned almost in passing in the very last sentence). You indicated that you were debating the aforementioned issue about the disclaimer - debate with who - you run the site? I "run" ApexSQL - I don't debate with anybody.

So if you feel so strongly about "full disclosure" - enforce the false pretenses of Red-Gate as well and fix the disclosure issues that remain on this site!

If you have rules of conduct, disclosure, ethics on this site post them so we can all read them. vs administering "justice" on an ad hoc basis as you have done here according to rules you make up on the fly.

Does Shill Factor disclose that he is paid by Red-Gate? or does he write tons of meaningless drivel for free - not sure which is worse. He has actively Shilled for Red-Gate with no disclosure at all that he writes for Red-Gate and is probably paid by them.

This guy posted it on the Quest forum and with his real name. Maybe he wasn't trying to hide and just didn't want sqlservercentral newsletters sent to his quest address (I wouldn't). Simply outing this guy is enough - editing the post is censorship.

But it still looks bad and probably was bad. Quest has been a pretty good competitor. I think they've tried to take the high road - especially vs that bogus benchmark RG is pushing. So it's ironic that Quest managed to do the impossible today and make Red-Gate look good.

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Michael Valentine Jones — Mon, 26 Feb 2007 13:12:00 GMT

Quite a coincidence that you have the same name as a product manager for Quest LiteSpeed, a competing product.

http://qlist1.quest.com/read/messages?id=17779

RE: Use Red-Gate''''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Aaron Ingold — Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:57:00 GMT

Please don't spam the forums. If you have a concern with the way Red Gate handles their licensing there are better ways to handle it.

Use Red-Gate''s backup... and Go to Jail???

Bob Boule-412584 — Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:22:00 GMT

Edited by the Editor

I have removed this post, which is a copy of a blog post from InfoWorld that questions Red Gate licensing.

Questioning this is ok, but disclosure is preferred. As is posting under the Red Gate forum for discussion. The author, Bob Boule, is product manager for Litespeed. You can read the blog post here: http://weblog.infoworld.com/dbunderground/archives/2007/02/use_redgates_ba.html

Steve Jones