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RE: Developers and DBAs

Sam-433637 — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:09:08 GMT

I enjoyed reading your article and definately I am on your side. I think it's common to see work conflicts but the difference is the degree level. For him being such a lousy supervisor, not only skillwise but professionally. I think you need to talk to his manager and don't let him feel that you can be bullied. Good luck!Samantha

RE: Developers and DBAs

Craig-315134 — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:27:31 GMT

Hello, Janet,There's an old saying: "A fish rots from the head on down." Dysfunctional organisations are usually that way because the people at or near the top of them are poor leaders and managers.Capitalism has many advantages, but it's not very democratic, and you and your colleagues unfortunately can't vote the rascals out. So here are your options:1. Outlast them. A variation on the "sit down, shut up and hang on" bumper-sticker philosophy. Not a lot of fun, but nothing lasts forever, including bad management (although it may often seem otherwise).2. Leave them. Find greener pastures - and as a previous poster suggested, ask good interview questions so you can better see just how green a particular new pasture might be. Potential problems: sometimes you find out after the fact the new place really isn't an improvement on the old; or that the person at the top who made it a good place to work in turn leaves, and is replaced by Darth Vader on your watch.3. Become a consultant. This might be the best of all worlds. You usually get paid well, your advice gets listened to respectfully (although little may be done with it later on), and you are freed from much of the political nonsense in which the permanent staff too often is immersed. Plus, you get a chance to see how the organisation works; inside information like that is really valuable, should you later consider seeking permanent employment at the place.Remember, too, that Oz doesn't exist in reality; there is no Great Good Place which is the perfect company to work in. There are always trade-offs, and you need to decide what's most important to you, and what you can tolerate. Happy hunting!Craig

RE: Developers and DBAs

Christopher P. Kile — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:18:44 GMT

"People vs. People"...sigh...that's called [i]politics[/i].Your story cites several political problems that originated with interactions based on development you were doing.Basic Rules for Developers Entering a New Development Environment1. The person(s) who ha(s/ve) been there before know something you don't. Find out what it is. In particular, find out how they've been doing things, and ask why they did it that way (look very puzzled, NOT like a code hawk that just found a juicy bug).2. Until you've completed rule #1, do not volunteer for anything, and keep your mouth shut in all public meetings (unless you can ask a question to advance the completion of rule #1).3. Do EVERYTHING you're asked to do, EXACTLY as you're asked to do it, until you've completed rule #1. Make sure to get a complete list of all work products you are expected to produce. Make sure to ask if any standards or examples that your boss likes are available for you to review and imitate. Slavishly imitate these work products, while making sure any information YOU consider important is ALSO included. Don't get caught in noncompliance with precedent when you're still finding out what the precedent is, why it is, and how it became that way.4. Once you've completed rule #1, never do more than one new thing at a time. Do your best to discuss it with the people most likely to object, and if they seem to take it as their idea during the course of the discussion, APPLAUD their idea, thank them for their input, and ask if they'd please comment on your work as you implement "their" idea.The list can go on, but these four, all dependendent on #1, are the mimimum necessary rules to keep from making powerful political enemies by your own actions before you are ready to make these enemies by your own choice. And that, my friend, is another lesson entirely.

RE: Developers and DBAs

Old_D — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 08:08:00 GMT

I've been there. When your boss is threatened by your expertise. That sour taste they have never goes away and work conditions can be unbearable, even when you are doing something you love. I worked with another developer who allowed me to submit a her approved design as my own (I changed one textbox). My boss told me it was a poor design and not user freindly. Sometimes you just have to walk away.

RE: Developers and DBAs

~Sreejith G — Mon, 08 Jan 2007 05:58:00 GMT

Story of my previous company (mine was around 3000 employees company with a DBA team around 15 people in different verticals, sql server 4 people were there in which one is MVP )=>

I got 3+ year exp, in which 2 year was Appln Dev from there got into DBA team. Initially with my PM's (he was the primary DBA for that project) guidance i been in DW project, in which i did the same task of yours creating Dimension and fact tables writing Stored Procedure, using Dynamic Task to configure server, I used INI files rather than tables as client was comfortable with that. I did the same task as yours my other DBA team members most of them were atleast 5+ year exp, so they were not comfortable intially seeing me in DBA team with zero exp. Mine was little bit dev kind of work initially so still they were not comfortable with DW or my kinda of work. But I proudly say I could win the heart of all those well experienced DBA's and also almost all the Sql developers in the company. My greatest dream was to become MVP for which my peers encouraged me and the MVP in our team guided and mentored me. But I couldnt be MVP, as currently i am working for Microsoft... I miss my old firm, old DBA team, DB/other developers , my old PM, everyone ...

I think either you were in wrong crowd or things didnt turn good for you there... Attitude plays a big role in this kind of job...

Thanks,

Sree

RE: Developers and DBAs

sqlgreg — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 10:28:00 GMT

One word that comes to mind for me when I read this article is diplomacy. It's important to think before you talk, and be careful what you say, and to whom you say it. Know who you can trust. Such is the nature of politics in the workplace.Good, ranty article. Janet, how about an article about your DTS solution? I'd like to see it and have discussion about it.

RE: Developers and DBAs

Norm Warren — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 10:04:00 GMT

The above are all good responses. I don't think anyone has an overwhelming ability to resiliance to dysfunctional corporate / work group behavior. It is interesting to consider or discover the reasons for the behavior. Incompetence, paranoia, fear. Does it pay to speak in private and directly to people who are behaving dysfunctially about what is happening? I guess it depends.

RE: Developers and DBAs

SQLBill — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 14:39:00 GMT

Good article about trying to work together. But it goes both ways. I'm a DBA and we have a developer who does EVERYTHING as a DTS package. Each step in the package has two 'side' steps to email her if that step is 1) successful or 2) fails. Yes for every step in the package. We try to get her to change her ways, but nothing happens. She will have a problem and then makes it our problem to solve.-SQLBill

RE: Developers and DBAs

T Y MA — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 09:28:00 GMT

This thing happen anytime anywhere, no matter you are contractor or staff. I learn it through the hard way too. Now I just do what ever I can do under my user right. That's might because I still kindly like be a contractor in this area.

RE: Developers and DBAs

grif sims-286558 — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 18:21:00 GMT

What a terrible article. There are a bajillion stories that nearly anyone can tell about how messed up a previous workplace may have been. It is silly to mis-represent this article to make it seem like it has something relevant to say about the relationship between developers and DBAs.

RE: Developers and DBAs

Ron Sexton — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 17:23:00 GMT

Sounds like you did a great job. And if they didn't agree, then they could have discussed it!

You made some of the points i was going to make.

In todays climate 'being helpful' is usually a bad thing. It has to do with the nature of offering. If they express interest and you help them then thats great. If you offer, and you are not a good team with trust and communication, then it can be taken many different ways. And you have no way of knowing how they will take it. They could take it as 'they must think they know more than me', 'they must think i am stupid', 'they are making me look bad', etc...!

However if you help them when they ask for it then you will get more respect and they will start trusting you more. Just the nature of things. This is true for most people. Even some of the people posting.

To make it more of a technical post perhaps you could have included an example of what you did.

RE: Developers and DBAs

Loner — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 13:20:00 GMT

I wanted to clear something.

When I put anything into production, the company required us to fill out a form and had at least 6 manangers signed the form. The DBA got the form and put in production. Then I would check if it was alright and signed off. I did not make a big show to complain the junior DBA, I just did not sign off because the implemention was incorrect. This went to her boss. All these were the company procedure, I could not control it. I would like to tell the junior DBA myself but the company required 'proper signature'.

When I suggested 'SELECT * into Backup FROM tableA', it was because I knew the table was small and it was an emergency production problem. Instead of taking a couple hour to create the backup file, I just wanted to get it done fast before the DBA went home.

I did make the whole process a little complicated. The senior DBA told me the junior DBA tried to read my procedure and had no clue what I was doing. However I did it because I knew later on, there would be more files to copy to the database. I did it this way so I did not have to create a DTS package or change DTS package. All I had to do was put the name of the file in the table. BTW, we all use window authentication, so I did not need to put sign on ID and password in the DTS package.

In the dtsrun, I just put down the server name, the package name and all the global variables.

When you put twenty connections in the DTS package, it ran in parallel, but the DTS package still keeps running until all the transfer were finished.

I created a job for each file was because all the files were created by main frame programs. Each file came down at different time. Part of the DTS package was checking if the file exists in the directory, if not, then it would wait five minutes and check again until it finds the file or until after certain hour. If I put all these in one DTS package, I had no idea which file was processed. The reason I created a job to run was I would know which file had processed and which file had not processed.

Maybe I made the whole process too complicated. But I like to make long term solution for every project.

Just my opinion.

RE: Developers and DBAs

R Wong — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 11:33:00 GMT

I have to agree with Alex that it is not about DBA vs Developer. It's about people.

Her boss is in the position to leverage Janet's enthusiasm, creativity and skills to help the department/group to perform better. However, her boss saw her as a threat.

This is very unfortunate. Hope you got a better job.

RE: Developers and DBAs

SQLprog — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 11:10:00 GMT

I'm a SQL developer too and have been in that situation, however I learned from my mistakes. I admit it, it wasn't always other people's fault! The thing is that they might have thought you were showing off. They probably built a case against you and ... I think it was a bit your fault too. Even if your suggestion is way better and easier, you shouldn't say that "I have a better idea". Or, if someone does a mistake, that's OK. It can be easily be handled by telling that junior DBA that you can't see one of the tables in production. As developers, we all know "BUG" means we did a mistake. I don't like if someone runs to my manager and complains.

RE: Developers and DBAs

Corey — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 11:01:00 GMT

Man, stories like this make me think about how lucky I am. Our company is a medium sized one so our politics and stucture are different than many out there. I am the senior DBA at our company and I have a team of three DBAs/Database developers. Our task is to maintain the whole database layer of our company. We write all DTS/SSIS packages and all sps. I guess I am very territorial in this respect. We all know that the databases cause many performance issues and I am a believer that only very skilled SQL developers should be doing any database work. If you allow all other developers to all do their own work against your data stores you are destined to have problems. Having SQL syntax knowledge is one thing, but knowing how the SQL Server works internally is very important to successful database implementation. I can't believe that your DBAs didn't listen to or were aware of the performance problems. It sounds like their knowledge was lacking and because their pride was hurt they took it out on you. Very unfortunate, especially to play that race card.

RE: Developers and DBAs

B Hilderman — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 10:47:00 GMT

GREAT ARTICLE! Not unusual. It's great when you work with a true group of professionals, all with a goal to make the process work more efficiently, take suggestions and give suggestions and the atmosphere is friendly. Been there ONCE in my career at a large startup company.

RE: Developers and DBAs

Ninja's_RGR'us — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 10:45:00 GMT

Lol, Can I send him my resume.

I think you should have charged 300$ plus overtime .

Message me if you find another one like this .

RE: Developers and DBAs

Maria Myers — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 10:41:00 GMT

Can I just tell you that's the best story I've heard all day? I love karma...

RE: Developers and DBAs

Mike C — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 10:39:00 GMT

LOL. Too numerous to count.

One of my favorites was when the owner of the small business I worked for (which shall remain nameless...) called me into his office and went off on a rant. He informed me that he was a better person than me because he earned "$200 an hour", and I turned in my resignation on the spot.

Well, after I left he hired 3 consultants (at exhorbitant rates) to come in and implement a system for the business. The key was his biggest customers were demanding that he get this system implemented quickly or lose their business (some of the biggest store chains in the world). About 1-1/2 years and $150,000 later, he still didn't have the system in place.

So, basically he had one of his people call me up and ask me to implement the system for him on a contract basis. Which I did, and it took about 3 months.

At $200 an hour.

RE: Developers and DBAs

Gregg Murray — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 10:28:00 GMT

The other DBA who "claimed" to have 10 years experience may know a little more about DTS then you do. First off if you don't create separate connections for each transform then they will not run in parallel. Having a few extra connections for a shorter time is much better than running the package in serial, and ironically, it would have solved your 20 temporary jobs problem that you discuss later in the article!

Secondly, there are good security reasons to not have your SQL Server connection information sitting in your job text. The hash that is created by right-clicking and scheduling a package is more secure than username and password clear text that might end up in a dts log file.

Thirdly, your solution of select * into b from a would have of course created a shared lock on table a. If the table was large you could have locked the original table, breaking your application. Moving the data in batches (which may have been what your supervisor was suggesting) may have been a better move. The sad thing is that you criticized before you tried to find out!

It also seems that you created a DTS solution that was not easy to understand and easily modify and were upset with your boss' legitimate request for more documentation on this complex process. If it were me I would have written one package with 20 transformations (yes, using 40 connections so they will run in parallel!) with perhaps a small application or stored procedure to change the connections from code if needed, so you don't have to change the package. It would run faster and be easier to understand, and be a heck of a lot less messy than 20 temporary jobs.

Finally, even calling someone a junior DBA is something that's not necessary in this day and age. We're all a team and if the corporation stratifies us that doesn't mean we need to do it to ourselves. It all just reeks of arrogance and lack of flexibility in your point of view.

It's always frustrating when people don't fully appreciate the work you do, but worse than any manager is another DBA who thinks he's better than everyone else. You need to ask yourself, did anyone leave the company because of me?

RE: Developers and DBAs

Ninja's_RGR'us — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 10:21:00 GMT

Any experiences you'd like to share?

RE: Developers and DBAs

Mike C — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 10:13:00 GMT

LOL. I just spoke with your bosses, they're treating you like the lobster... slowly heating up the pot so you can't tell your soul is dying... j/k I've done a lot of contract work, so I've seen a lot of interesting things and met a lot of crazy people.

The one thing I've learned over the years (don't laugh, some people have been at this a lot longer than me and haven't learned even *one thing*!) is this: "Document! Document! Document!" Those three little words can save your "life"

RE: Developers and DBAs

eljeffo — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:58:00 GMT

Mike C,

My point was that this was an editorial, not a technical article. Yes, we need to try to help the juniors get through the death of their soul as quickly and easily as possible, because I think we can all remember that time in our careers, and a few articles on the topic are fine, but they are editorials, not technical articles.

As an editorial, the article was fine; as a technical article, it contained a few tidbits of interest and a whole lot of irrelevance.

On the other hand, it takes a special kind of toughened hide to write an article for a technical community and put it out there for thousands of nit-pickers like me to take shots at it, so I admire anyone who does it.

Jeff

RE: Developers and DBAs

Ninja's_RGR'us — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:53:00 GMT

Like me... only 2.? years experiences and never had troubles like this one .

RE: Developers and DBAs

Mike C — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:49:00 GMT

I disagree. As antares pointed out, a lot of the more experienced folks (like yourself most likely) have lived through a situation or two like this, so an article like this might seem "old-hat" or "off-topic" for you. But keep in mind there are a lot of newly minted DBA's and developers joining communities like this all the time, and sad to say office politics is something they will have to deal with. I think it's a good idea to share not just technical expertise with the youngsters, but also other professional business experiences.

RE: Developers and DBAs

Lawrence-304373 — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:45:00 GMT

I was in similar situation years ago in a big Canadian company. Then I learn what to say and when to keep my mouth shut. This help me to go into trouble but it didn't help in making my job happier.Currently, I am in a big US based company. The IT dept is a big mess. We are still using P3 as server. It took over 2 years to approve a plan to upgrade. It seems that nobody care about what you say( and I won't say anything). My boss didn't know or understand what I am doing. I tried to explain to him Why and How I didn't things in order to made it work better not just barely working. His fiscal expression told me that he is not interested. Then I stop say anything. So, I am still look around for my perfect job.Not saying anything isn't a solution. Ask the right question in an interview is a better solution.

RE: Developers and DBAs

Mike C — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:44:00 GMT

I hate office politics And it always seems like the most talented IT professionals just aren't properly equipped to deal with all the backstabbing and craziness. Probably because good IT people tend to focus on the technical issues and don't have lot of time and energy to waste on all the office politics.

RE: Developers and DBAs

Maria Myers — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:41:00 GMT

Depending on your modus operandi suggestions can be given in different manners. What has worked for me in the past is to focus on the bigger picture, forget my pride at times, and get the job done however possible. If that means allowing someone else to take credit for your ideas, or bringing them to the point where they suggest the idea as their own and can shine can be very beneficial. In every role I've ever had my goal has been to make my manager look good. When you do that they will treat you better and will often become less insecure and trust you more because they know you're looking out for them. I'm not suggesting for anyone to be a doormat but to look at the bigger picture and choose how you fit into it. Working with the system can be the only way to work through the politics.

Off my soapbox, I have some opportunities that are basically the opposite of this environment where IT is central to an organization and respected as such. The IT group's suggestions are welcomed and very much appreciated, and the exposure to the rest of the organization is significant. I'm looking for DBA's strong in SQL coding, SQL Server 2000 and 2005, and who have a good business sense and want to be involved. If you're interested please contact me: maria@ergsearch.com or (920) 996-9700 x126.

This is a great community, I'm thankful to be a part of it. Keep your collective chin up IT counterparts! Your value can be recognized in the right organization! I hope you all find the right fit sooner than later, and congratulations to you who already have.

RE: Developers and DBAs

Antares686 — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:26:00 GMT

I think there a lot of people who got that lousy T-Shirt from this very type of situation. The problem is palin and simple office politics. Some people just do not want your help as that is a sign of weakness in their opinion and if it wasn't their idea they want you to disappear. I find these folks will also make your work disappear for a period of time then bring it up at a point as to make it look like their own. Unfortunately document everything to CYA and offer suggestions publically around these folks with the backing of your manager, if ou don't have that then you don't really want to offer the suggestion and should look for a less hostile environment as a matter of personal opion.

RE: Developers and DBAs

eljeffo — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:23:00 GMT

I've had similar experiences as well, and I think anyone with more than 5 years of experience as a good SQL developer is going to have at least one of these war stories. I'm also a writer, so I understand the need to occasionally relieve a little pressure by writing a rant.

That having been said, while I understand the need for the occasional article about how to manage unmanageable managers, deal with demanding departments, and coerce challenging co-workers, this story (IMO) should have been presented as an editorial.

We've all had these challenges, and editorializing against the manager who wanted his project to fail despite your best efforts to make it work ... <take a breath> ... is a healthy thing. This article listed a few technical examples but, c'mon... it was a rant.

My point is: if you want to write an editorial, write an editorial. Don't disguise it as a technical article.

RE: Developers and DBAs

SQL ORACLE — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:02:00 GMT

I had even worse experiences. The best choice is nothing but leave this company! Remember the saying:

If you cannot change the world, change yourself.

Best wishes.

RE: Developers and DBAs

Andy Brons — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 07:57:00 GMT

Your post sounds too much like judge the message by the messenger. One needs to do their job to the best of their abilities. Also stakeholder analysis comes in to play. As an employee you have a duty to see that things go as well as possible. If people can't handle the feedback to improve then discussions need to start. If it turns out that what you have to contribute is not appreciated then it is time to move on. Nobody spends an entire career at an employeer and if you are not developing and or appreciated you have to go because nobody else is investing in you accept yourself.

RE: Developers and DBAs

Jeff Torres — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 07:48:00 GMT

These are some suggestions on how to better manager your working relationships. First, may I recommend in the future that when you have suggestions you do not put anyone (especially a supervisor) in a spot of embarrassment? To suggest a way to do something more efficiently is good. To do it at the expense of making someone else look incompetent is not.

Second, if you want to be efficiently productive and get along with your co-workers, then show them the respect that you want by being discrete and modest in your opinions. Is your goal to be a hero by showing off your talents or to accomplish your goals?

Third, stay in your lane of responsibility. When we stray out of lane of responsibility is easy to get caught up in the office politics.

I hope this advice is well taken. Best regards.

FYI...I too am a worker bee and not a manager.

RE: Developers and DBAs

ChrisMoix-87856 — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 07:33:00 GMT

It sounds like a depressing place to work, but I'd be interested to hear the other side of the story.

The article heading mentioned "DBA Janet Wong brings us one of her experiences about how you can better go with the flow. " but the article seems like a gripe session with no pointers on how to "go with the flow", only complaints.

RE: Developers and DBAs

Loner — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 07:29:00 GMT

First, I would like to thank Clarold Britton to edit this article for me since I am still struggling my 'Chinlish' - English grammar.

I am working in a different company now but I find out everywhere is the same.

I just read a book, it said the working environment and culture had changed since the last twenty years. Mostly because of company downsizing, bad economy, people are worried about their job security. At the same company I was learning Actuate report, I asked a developer about the actuate report adminstrator and how it worked, he actually said 'No'. If I want to learn, I will have another way to learn. That guy obviously had no confidence in himself. He worried if he showed it to me, his job would be threatened. I actually felt bad for him.

Trust and loyalty is no longer existed. Unfornately trust and loyality is basic to all business success. People become skeptical, supicious and cynical because they worry if they still have a job the next day.

my 2 cents.

RE: Developers and DBAs

Ron Colwill — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 07:27:00 GMT

I can relate. I was in a situation where I felt that if I did better, it was resented. But if I slacked off, I resented myself. I left the job, then came back, had lots of ups and downs, but stuck with it while I finished a degree and paid off our house.

Now, 7 years later and looking back, I realize that I took work way too seriously. People will do what they want to do, and management listens with one ear to the technical advice and the other ear to the politics. That's reality. Probably better in some environments than others. But, for me, the answer has been to keep coming in every day, decide for myself what I was willing to do, and collect my paycheck. My reward has been the respect and praise of the business people I work with. Now, after a few years of this, I'm finally retiring (at 30) to pursue other hobbies and interests.

The motto? Decide who you want to be and where you want to go long term. Then, determine if your work fits into that plan. If it does, then stick with it. If not, then make changes to align your life with your values. I know it's easier said than done, but it is doable.

Best of luck to you. Hope things are going well now.

Ron

RE: Developers and DBAs

ChrisMoix-87856 — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 07:15:00 GMT

"I opened a DTS package; it transferred five tables from one database of one server to another database of another server. Well, how many connections would you create? Two right? I saw TEN connections - two for each table. The most amazing thing was the DTS package was written by a DBA who claimed to have over 10 years' experiences. "

Actually, with only two connections, the table population would have to go one at a time (table1, then table2, then table3, ...). With one set of connections (source and destination) for each table, they can run in parallel (If memory serves, the default is 4 parallel processes at a time. This would mean a faster executing package.

Maybe you should have asked the DBAs for the reason behind their design...

RE: Developers and DBAs

Mark Yelton — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 07:11:00 GMT

Janet,

It sounds to me like you are better off for moving on. From what you described, my perception of the problem is somebody was threatened by your abilities. It's sad that people can't get over the fact there are other people that have more skills and are better at one thing or another. They would be so much better off in the long run if they looked at that situation as an opportunity to learn and get better rather than be afraid of being looked at as not being able to do something as well as someone else.

In the big picture, are technical skills really what define us as a person? I think not.

RE: Developers and DBAs

alen teplitsky — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 06:56:00 GMT

everyone knows that all developers are evilI think it's more of the same MS battle beween the GUI and the command prompt/scripting. Back in my MS Exchange/AD days I knew the GUI and didn't know too much about the guts of the system which is a mystery to most people anyway.When I started with SQL almost a year ago I told myself I'm going to be a scripting guy. I still use the GUI for some easy tasks, and too much I think. Most things I'm learning to write my own SQL code to do.I think that too many people who work with MS software never get past the GUI and because of this don't learn enough about the product. And every new release MS encourages this with new wizards and whatever to make things easier.

RE: Developers and DBAs

Tim Chapman-218780 — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 06:22:00 GMT

In your situation, it sounds to me like management really meant, "that sounds like a great idea, but I have no idea what you are talking about". It are those situations that are really frustrating, when you have a sound solution to a problem, you pitch the solution, but have to pitch it to someone who really doesn't know what they are doing.