InstantForum.NET v2.9.0SQLServerCentralhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/notifications@sqlservercentral.comTue, 18 Jun 2013 15:10:14 GMT20http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspx[quote][b]cdonlan 18448 (8/23/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]jfmartin (8/18/2011)[/b][hr]I understand but... is it only in IT that we have a lot of changes ?I think its the same thing everywhere, in construction, transportation, etc.For me, its more than a project management problem.I don't thing its a good idea to defend IT with this type of example if we compare to other industry.IT is still relative new in industry.[/quote]Good question and I think you partly answer the question by noting that IT is a relatively new industry. However, just as the article illustrates, changes tend to be characterized as 'simple' by the end users. I'm willing to bet that most mature industries ... take construction (it's been around for centuries) don't often have clients telling the general contractor to knock out a wall after the house has been built and expect it to have a marginal impact because they have an adequate understanding of the wall and it's function.[/quote]I'm in the process of having a bathroom added to my house. The scope creep so far has caused it to go from a 12-14k project to a 20k project. And it was caused by such simple things as our contractor discovered that the floor sloped more than he though, and so it took more to level it. Or in another case we realized both my wife and the contractor had forgotten the cost of the toilet. So I have to say that scope creep can happen anywhere, and probably in any industry. That being said I think it is somewhat different in the IT industry. The level of complexity tends to be far higher, and its harder to bring all interested parties to the table to plan. Not to mention that if you are building a 10 million dollar overpass, its not unreasonable to spend 6 months planning. A lot of times IT projects are done with days, hours, or sometimes even no planing. A lot of times we plan for the project as we are actually writing the code. And of course as stated above, IT is a somewhat new industry.KennethWed, 24 Aug 2011 14:54:24 GMTKenneth.Fisherhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspx[quote][b]jfmartin (8/18/2011)[/b][hr]I understand but... is it only in IT that we have a lot of changes ?I think its the same thing everywhere, in construction, transportation, etc.For me, its more than a project management problem.I don't thing its a good idea to defend IT with this type of example if we compare to other industry.IT is still relative new in industry.[/quote]Good question and I think you partly answer the question by noting that IT is a relatively new industry. However, just as the article illustrates, changes tend to be characterized as 'simple' by the end users. I'm willing to bet that most mature industries ... take construction (it's been around for centuries) don't often have clients telling the general contractor to knock out a wall after the house has been built and expect it to have a marginal impact because they have an adequate understanding of the wall and it's function.Tue, 23 Aug 2011 16:00:55 GMTcdonlan 18448http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxYeah I think a good number of projects result in something completely different than what was originally asked for due to assumptions. And we wonder why user acceptance is never 100%.... :-)Mon, 22 Aug 2011 11:56:36 GMTKWymorehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspx[quote][b]Kenneth Wymore (8/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]Kenneth Fisher-475792 (8/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]David Walker-278941 (8/19/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]swellguy (8/19/2011)[/b][hr]David,Yup, you're right, on 'begs the question.' Slipped through a couple editors, so good catch. Thanks,B[/quote]You're welcome. Thanks for the kind reply. I'm just trying (probably in vain) to help a few phrases keep their original meaning![/quote]This being completely off the original topic, but since I like the phrase, and I didn't see anything wrong with the way it was used, what is it supposed to mean?[/quote]I too was unaware that this phrase was being used incorrectly so I looked it up on Wikipedia. If I read the definition correctly then "begging the question" actually means to "assume the initial point". It is a logical falacy where a person is "begging" the listener to accept the "question" (proposition) before the labor of logic is undertaken. In other words, trying to argue for a conclusion when the initial question is only assumed and not wholly understood. If anyone has a clearer explanation of this, please share with the rest of us! :-)The phrase "Raises the question" is actually much more appropriate for the context of this article.[/quote]If thats true then I think half or more of the technical requirements I've read recently are "begging the question".Don't you love how one of these discussions can get sidetracked?KennethMon, 22 Aug 2011 11:38:15 GMTKenneth.Fisherhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspx[quote][b]Kenneth Fisher-475792 (8/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]David Walker-278941 (8/19/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]swellguy (8/19/2011)[/b][hr]David,Yup, you're right, on 'begs the question.' Slipped through a couple editors, so good catch. Thanks,B[/quote]You're welcome. Thanks for the kind reply. I'm just trying (probably in vain) to help a few phrases keep their original meaning![/quote]This being completely off the original topic, but since I like the phrase, and I didn't see anything wrong with the way it was used, what is it supposed to mean?[/quote]I too was unaware that this phrase was being used incorrectly so I looked it up on Wikipedia. If I read the definition correctly then "begging the question" actually means to "assume the initial point". It is a logical falacy where a person is "begging" the listener to accept the "question" (proposition) before the labor of logic is undertaken. In other words, trying to argue for a conclusion when the initial question is only assumed and not wholly understood. If anyone has a clearer explanation of this, please share with the rest of us! :-)The phrase "Raises the question" is actually much more appropriate for the context of this article.Mon, 22 Aug 2011 09:18:08 GMTKWymorehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspx[quote][b]David Walker-278941 (8/19/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]swellguy (8/19/2011)[/b][hr]David,Yup, you're right, on 'begs the question.' Slipped through a couple editors, so good catch. Thanks,B[/quote]You're welcome. Thanks for the kind reply. I'm just trying (probably in vain) to help a few phrases keep their original meaning![/quote]This being completely off the original topic, but since I like the phrase, and I didn't see anything wrong with the way it was used, what is it supposed to mean?Mon, 22 Aug 2011 08:38:29 GMTKenneth.Fisherhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxDavid,I'm a fan of agile myself-- that being the method I've been working under for the last few years. I wouldn't say that the primary theme of the work is that implementors should frequently say no-- but I would hope that it underlines the need for frequent, communication.As someone noted above, and I think it is a valid criticism, the best design method in the world doesn't work if the customer cannot (or will not) articulate a solid specification.Thanks for reading, I've enjoyed all the different perspectives,BradSun, 21 Aug 2011 10:38:36 GMTswellguyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspx[quote][b]swellguy (8/18/2011)[/b][hr]I think you articulate well a point I was trying to make. The poor pencil maker could have said 'no,' and explained the business reasons for his refusal, at any time.[/quote]Was that really the point? If so I don't get it. Change is good. Change is the norm. IT folks shouldn't be saying no to change - they ought to be able to accommodate constant change and adjust their deliverables and working methods accordingly.If the Pencil analogy is supposed to correspond to software development then perhaps the problem is that the pencil maker started out with a waterfall-style, fixed scope approach when the project might have benefited from a more iterative approach. [url=http://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html]Agile Principles[/url] emphasise that change is to be welcomed, even late in development and should be coupled with good communication and working closely with the customer every day.Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:00:53 GMTsqlvogelhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxI really enjoyed this editorial. I brought back an memory of something similar at the beginning of my career. Scope creep can be very expensive or even deadly to a company.Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:37:46 GMTTrey Stakerhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspx[quote][b]swellguy (8/19/2011)[/b][hr]David,Yup, you're right, on 'begs the question.' Slipped through a couple editors, so good catch. Thanks,B[/quote]You're welcome. Thanks for the kind reply. I'm just trying (probably in vain) to help a few phrases keep their original meaning!Fri, 19 Aug 2011 10:22:46 GMTDavid Walker-278941http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxDavid,Yup, you're right, on 'begs the question.' Slipped through a couple editors, so good catch. Thanks,BFri, 19 Aug 2011 09:58:56 GMTswellguyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxPlease don't misuse the phrase "begs the question". It doesn't mean what you think it means.I would tell the company that signed the contract that two colors is not "a small tweak", and neither is changing one type of pencil into six.Fri, 19 Aug 2011 09:55:03 GMTDavid Walker-278941http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxVery nice.Alas, the pencil maker needed to employ a good Business Analyst. Any BA worth their salt would have worked out the requirement for 4,392 pencils, 16 pens and a variety of coloured chalks - the project would have been scoped at 2 years and $15,359,104 and come in on time/budget. :-)And a truly good BA would have discovered the actual requirement to eliminate duplication of writing implements. ;-)The largest, and most successful, project I have ever worked on was when we doubled the time spent on the initial analysis and design phases. There was some scope creep, as always, but there were very few surprises and the downstream benefit to coding/testing/etc was well worth the effort.Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:46:37 GMTNaked Apehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxAnother great story SSC Veteran.It points out another thing to be wary of: the word "simple".Anytime someone uses the word "simple" you have to assume that they haven't thought things through, they haven't gathered enough input and they haven't had a meaningful dialog with the user community.9 times out of 10 it seems to be the case.Thu, 18 Aug 2011 14:35:27 GMTj_e_ohttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspx**************************I remember years ago when someone in management came to me and said that she wanted me to create a [b]simple[/b] [her emphasis repeated several time] scheduling program for our staff. She wanted me to complete something in a about 3-4 months. Our agency had just paid good money to a third party to develop such a web program, and it was one of those complete failures. No one would use it. The theory from management was that no one was using the 3rd party application because it was too complicated. I have a reputation for building applications that are user-friendly and time-saving. Management thought that maybe I should take a crack at this business need.Standing in the hallway getting the big picture, I only agreed to look into the idea. I did not agree to anything specific. I spent the next month talking to all the real users from low-level staff up through management, thinking hard about the data structures and the real needs not stated by staff, and designing screens on paper. I spent an additional two weeks putting together a prototype and refining my ideas. Then I requested the opportunity to meet with the entire management team to present the prototype. The structure I put together was a desktop application and was so much more complicated than what anyone had imagined. And yet, by the end of the presentation, even with glazed eyes, the management team unanimously agreed that a) the prototype represented exactly what was needed and b) the application would both help staff save time AND improve our accuracy in data/dealing with clients.I rolled the project out in 2 phases. It was 4 years later before the second phase was completed (not that I was working on it *all* the time those 4 years; sometimes other projects interfered). Despite the software's complexity, the software delivered 100% on it's promise of significant time savings and improved data accuracy. Everyone, from low down to up high, was thrilled. Even today, years later, I still hear staff saying how much they love the application and can not imagine having to work without it. People can take whatever lessons from that story that they want. **************************Thanks again for the editorial. It has generated some interesting discussion.Thu, 18 Aug 2011 14:14:34 GMTJJ Bhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxJJ B,I think you're the close about getting my intent with the piece. As a metaphor, I hope that everyone can recognize at least a piece of themselves at all the levels: The Pencil Maker, the VP's, the CEO, and the (unfortunately absent until the end) board of directors. I am sure that most of us played different roles at different times, from stakeholder to implementor.Along those lines, the intent was to hopefully illustrate how many actors-- all acting with the very best of intentions-- can fail to communicate their way to a disaster.I think you articulate well a point I was trying to make. The poor pencil maker could have said 'no,' and explained the business reasons for his refusal, at any time. Thanks for reading,BradThu, 18 Aug 2011 13:39:34 GMTswellguyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspx[quote][b]Mattrick (8/18/2011)[/b][hr]Thanks for the story, I really enjoyed it. It hammers home the point that you must be careful what you ask for.[/quote]It hammers home the point that people don't know what their requirements are until you give them something that doesn't meet them.Thu, 18 Aug 2011 13:38:06 GMTNevynhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspx[quote][b]Koen Verbeeck (8/18/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]swellguy (8/18/2011)[/b][hr]Thanks for all the positive responses! I wanted to try a more humorous approach to the topic, and I'm glad some folks enjoyed it!Cheers,Brad[/quote]I'm going to print it out on poster format and hang it all over the office :cool:[/quote]Dangerous ....I once had a boss who sent around a certain Dilbert cartoon during a project not going so well. He wasn't fired right afterwards, but it certainly didnt help and he was gone within a year. Not everyone finds funny what IT finds funny.Thu, 18 Aug 2011 13:37:09 GMTNevynhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxNice analogyThu, 18 Aug 2011 12:48:31 GMTSQLRNNRhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxI'll agree that it was a very fun story and quick read. I appreciate the effort.I do have to say however, that my first thought was that the pencil maker failed to his job. It is well known that people are not able to articulate or even think about their needs for a software project. Knowing that people simply can not think about processes and all their needs, I consider it to be the maker's responsibility to find out what the real needs are before diving into a project.I start all my projects with the assumption that my clients can articulate about 5% of what they really need, incorrectly articulate 10% of what they need, and leave the remaining 85% out of the story completely. It is my job to figure out which of the features and processes they tell me about are correct and to figure out what the other 85% is that they simply can't tell me about--until I bring it up. Then it's, "Oh, of course we need that." I also have no problems arguing with my clients when they get it wrong. This design work is done before I tell them what the project will cost and how long it will take. There are no major surprises. This approach works extremely well for me.In the story of the pencil maker, it would be equivalent to the pencil maker taking the initiative to find out about the need for red pencils, etc. up-front so that the poor CEO never got fired. Instead, she gets a promotion for correctly over-seeing a complicated project. And everyone lived happily ever after.I wonder what the overall success rate of IT projects would be if everyone took this approach?Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:44:48 GMTJJ Bhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxExcellent editorial. Food for thought and top-notch humor in one.Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:04:24 GMTJames Zimmermanhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxI liked the "smoke and mirrors" part best. Since those were the original "long-distance data communication technologies", it's really a well-picked concept. Not that your dad sees it that way, but ....Thu, 18 Aug 2011 11:49:49 GMTGSquaredhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxNice! Very entertaining and sadly, very relevant.Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:14:42 GMTKWymorehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxMy quote from Dr. Deming can apply to any person who tries to "manage" a project poorly-- that includes an IT person who has "just one (more) little tweak"...Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:04:28 GMTj_e_ohttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxI'm saving this one - it has soooo many uses. Like slapping onto the desk of the next person that says "I have just one little tweak..." (Full disclosure: this is just as likely to be an IT person with an "improvement" to the system being developed - like me!:pinch:)We deal with these types of scope creep changes every day in the larger management of multiple projects (with limited resources). When the PM is at the bottom of the org chart, and the RVP is near the top, it's a tough battle to push back on the scope creep. Fortunately our CEO is enlightened, and can assist in either pushing back, or re-prioritizing. Now if we can just get the prioritizing in line with the available resources, we'll be golden! :hehe:"Making progress, one creep at a time."Thu, 18 Aug 2011 09:40:07 GMTStephanie J Brownhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxExcellent analogy :-)Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:56:35 GMTMartin Schoombeehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxI can sum up that little parable by quoting Dr. Deming: "The present style of management is the biggest producer of waste, causing huge losses, whose magnitudes can not be evaluated, can not be measured”.- “The New Economics” 1994 – Ch. 2 -The Heavy Losses-, page 22Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:51:37 GMTj_e_ohttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxThanks again for all the comments. I'm loving the stories, especially. Glad to know I'm not the only one in this reality!Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:30:26 GMTswellguyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxThank you SO much for the giggle to go with my morning coffee. I truly needed it although I'm pretty certain the owner of my company would not understand the humor. Apparently it's always my fault when the projects aren't delivered on time or on budget. :laugh:Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:25:31 GMTjamie.butlerhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxGreat story, I think I worked for them one time. Of course I was young and stupid, and when the contract (for a software conversion project) had one short line saying "Add in additional changes we have come up with over the last few years" in the 3 page document, and I was assured there were just a few, I believed them, and signed the contract.Once I had been there about a week, I was handed a 3 inch thick folder of notes, including some handwritten on napkins.For that and several other reasons I didn't end up finishing that contract.I would have to guess though, that most developers have had something similar happen to them.Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:18:32 GMTKenneth.Fisherhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxExcellent story.And it reminds us that the much more simple solution existed:[i] Let each user choose their own writing instrument.[/i]Thu, 18 Aug 2011 07:09:16 GMTjay-hhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxAwesome example of some very basic project management concepts (scope, stakeholders, measurements of success).So this seems to illustrate the point that the success or lack thereof in a project can be a matter of perspective.From the PM's perspective the pencil project was a huge success. He managed the scope creep beautifully including an increased budget.When the stakeholder was the CEO and his measurements of success were the ruling criteria, the project was a huge success.As soon as the stakeholders changed from the CEO to the board of directors and the measurements of success also changed, the project became a huge failure.Perspective. (a fancy way of saying "it depends")Dave ;-)Thu, 18 Aug 2011 06:47:12 GMTDave62http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxWhether an IT project is a "failure" is a matter of perspective. Just like highway construction, if people ultimately use the applicaton, it generates a profit, and no one gets killed or injured in the process, then it could be called a success, even if it doesn't live up to everyone's expectations. The voyage of Christopher Columbus, that led to discovery of America, was a "failed project".Thu, 18 Aug 2011 06:45:34 GMTEric M Russellhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxThanks for the story, I really enjoyed it. It hammers home the point that you must be careful what you ask for.Thu, 18 Aug 2011 06:43:52 GMTMattrickhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxI understand but... is it only in IT that we have a lot of changes ?I think its the same thing everywhere, in construction, transportation, etc.For me, its more than a project management problem.I don't thing its a good idea to defend IT with this type of example if we compare to other industry.IT is still relative new in industry.Thu, 18 Aug 2011 06:43:29 GMTjfmartinhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspx[quote][b]swellguy (8/18/2011)[/b][hr]Thanks for all the positive responses! I wanted to try a more humorous approach to the topic, and I'm glad some folks enjoyed it!Cheers,Brad[/quote]I'm going to print it out on poster format and hang it all over the office :cool:Thu, 18 Aug 2011 06:30:15 GMTKoen Verbeeckhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxThanks for all the positive responses! I wanted to try a more humorous approach to the topic, and I'm glad some folks enjoyed it!Cheers,BradThu, 18 Aug 2011 06:20:58 GMTswellguyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxFirstly its a dream to work on these projects. A person could choose the right 5-6 projects in a lifetime and retire happily having never achieved anything.Secondly lets get some config code in there.Thu, 18 Aug 2011 03:11:20 GMTskelly 20318http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxVery good article. :-DWe were only discussing the other day a list of 'failed' projects. Maybe they were not failures after all and delivered exactly what was asked for......Oh well back to my work and attempt to make another last minute change to a project. It will only delay things a little while as it is only a little change....;-)Thu, 18 Aug 2011 01:42:17 GMTskankerhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic1161527-2805-1.aspxAwesome editorial. Nice analogy :-DThu, 18 Aug 2011 00:55:18 GMTKoen Verbeeck