InstantForum.NET v2.9.0SQLServerCentralhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/notifications@sqlservercentral.comSat, 25 May 2013 12:35:31 GMT20http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxJames... What kind of car do you own or lease?Mon, 17 May 2010 18:46:08 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxYes, thank you Grant for the though-provoking article. I understand why people want to help - it's human nature. However, one might argue that it's also human nature to be greedy and lazy. I will help a friend or an associate if they ask. But I tend to shy away from requests by strangers because you just don't know what you will get yourself into. To close, here is a little personal story:I was in Chicago about 10 years ago for training. At the end of the first day I decided to walk around town to check it out (great city BTW). As with any big city there is the "right side" and "wrong side" of the street. Naively, I didn't follow the locals and decided on a shortcut. That led me straight into the path of a fairly scary looking street person (i.e. homeless dude). Of course, he hits me up for money. Rather than flashing a wad of cash, I decided the best course was to ask what he wanted the money for. "Something to eat", he says. I say, "Well, I'm going to McDonald's so I will buy you something. What would you like?". He asked for a cheeseburger and so I thought "sure, it's only $5." So, while he waits outside I go inside and order a 1/4-pounder with cheese meal. While I'm waiting, I notice that word has gotten out and 5 of his buddies show up outside all wanting their cheeseburger meal. When I take his dinner out to him, he asks me to buy dinner for all his pals. When I decline (partly because I didn't have enough money, partly because I didn't want to) I was met with utter disbelief and - get this - open hostility. Like I [u]OWED[/u] them all dinner! Fortunately, they didn't follow me back into the store because the manager saw what was happening and told them he was calling the police. They scurried away and I happily took the "good side" of the street back to the hotel.How I feel about that experience is exactly how I feel about giving away advice/consulting to people in forums (i.e. strangers). Figure it out yourself the hard way or pay someone who knows what they are doing. In a way, that IS helping them because they will certainly remember it for next time. Then they can go out and use that knowledge to charge some other person who doesn't know what they are going. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.Mon, 17 May 2010 17:08:01 GMTJames Stoverhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Richard M. (5/17/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]James Stover (5/13/2010)[/b][hr]I stopped being helpful online about 5 years ago. I'm not interested in helping some stranger in the far reaches of <insert developing nation here> to take my hard-earned knowledge for free and then potentially use it to undercut me in my local market. Not to mention that frequently the help was completely unappreciated. My skills are my business and I use them to earn a living. It's not smart business to give away your knowledge for free even if it is to help the community. I share and mentor through my professional network.I also don't give away knowledge in job interviews. If the questions are overly specific or complex, I decline to answer and state my reasons. If I don't know the answer I say so. Hire me if you want the answer and fire me if it's no good.[/quote]...while I perfectly understand the reasoning behind your response, I believe that all of us involved in a community give back one way or another, and judging from responses you have provided previously on this site, you are doing it. Of course, there's a big difference in providing useful responses to someone asking for help than providing answers to someone that doesn't want to invest their own time. You might have a good read at [url=http://www.brentozar.com/archive/2010/04/rock-stars-normal-people-and-you/]Brent Ozar's blog[/url] about being involved.@Grant: great article. I have learned a lot by just reading others responses and added my 2 cents where I was able to.[/quote]Thank you. I've enjoyed and learned from the interchange as well.Mon, 17 May 2010 14:53:00 GMTGrant Fritcheyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Richard M. (5/17/2010)[/b][hr] You might have a good read at [url=http://www.brentozar.com/archive/2010/04/rock-stars-normal-people-and-you/]Brent Ozar's blog[/url] about being involved.[/quote]FWIW, the Blog article by Brent is a really good read!Mon, 17 May 2010 14:33:43 GMTSQLRNNRhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx[quote][b]James Stover (5/13/2010)[/b][hr]I stopped being helpful online about 5 years ago. I'm not interested in helping some stranger in the far reaches of <insert developing nation here> to take my hard-earned knowledge for free and then potentially use it to undercut me in my local market. Not to mention that frequently the help was completely unappreciated. My skills are my business and I use them to earn a living. It's not smart business to give away your knowledge for free even if it is to help the community. I share and mentor through my professional network.I also don't give away knowledge in job interviews. If the questions are overly specific or complex, I decline to answer and state my reasons. If I don't know the answer I say so. Hire me if you want the answer and fire me if it's no good.[/quote]...while I perfectly understand the reasoning behind your response, I believe that all of us involved in a community give back one way or another, and judging from responses you have provided previously on this site, you are doing it. Of course, there's a big difference in providing useful responses to someone asking for help than providing answers to someone that doesn't want to invest their own time. You might have a good read at [url=http://www.brentozar.com/archive/2010/04/rock-stars-normal-people-and-you/]Brent Ozar's blog[/url] about being involved.@Grant: great article. I have learned a lot by just reading others responses and added my 2 cents where I was able to.Mon, 17 May 2010 14:13:19 GMTRichard M.http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxI think you communcated your points rather well. Nothing to apologize for.Mon, 17 May 2010 10:56:35 GMTdjackson 22568http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx[quote][b]djackson 22568 (5/17/2010)[/b][hr]This issue is not limited to database advice, programming advice, or even computers in general. I volunteer on a soccer board, handling registration. We receive complaints about how poorly registration is handled all the time. This year we offered 50 days of registration at one park district site, 60 days at another, and 3 days of our own. Not 10 minutes after getting home from the last day of registration, I received an email complaining that "we only offered one day", another "I refuse to pay the late fee", and the best one "you need to have a board member at the park district to answer questions!".So let me see, our board members should quit their job so they can hang out at the park district to answer your questions, all of which are answered on our web site. We also provide every board member's phone number on the site, and an email address. Yet it is our fault you couldn't find the time in two months to sign up little Johnny or Suzie to play soccer.It seems that our country is quickly moving to a situation where everyone feels they are entitled to what they want when they want it, and pity those of us who actually are self sufficient.[/quote]The same people will later by complaining to the coaches that their precious is not getting enough playing time and screaming at the coaches, players, officials, and their own kids about anything they don't like.Mon, 17 May 2010 10:23:45 GMTMichael Valentine Joneshttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxPosters of questions- keep in mind that the experts aren't with you, don't know what you have tried, have no idea how competent you are, et cetera. Frequently the experts here (and myself in other situations) have to deal with someone stating how they tried x, y or z, when they really didn't. It could be they are being less than truthful, knowing in their mind x, y or z won't work (whether they are right or wrong). It could be they thought they tried x, y or z, but really tried X, Y and Z instead.I have not posted solutions here - I don't have confidence in my knowledge compared to others here. Yet there are other forums I do respond on. One such forum is used by those whose company purchased a particular product. Support covers 99% of the questions posted - but people expect "experts" to answer for free either because they don't want to call support, or they don't pay for support.How is that my problem?The experts who answer questions here do it for free. Free advice is worth what you pay for it - if you don't like it, don't ask. But don't whine about the quality of answers given.Mon, 17 May 2010 10:22:08 GMTdjackson 22568http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxThis issue is not limited to database advice, programming advice, or even computers in general. I volunteer on a soccer board, handling registration. We receive complaints about how poorly registration is handled all the time. This year we offered 50 days of registration at one park district site, 60 days at another, and 3 days of our own. Not 10 minutes after getting home from the last day of registration, I received an email complaining that "we only offered one day", another "I refuse to pay the late fee", and the best one "you need to have a board member at the park district to answer questions!".So let me see, our board members should quit their job so they can hang out at the park district to answer your questions, all of which are answered on our web site. We also provide every board member's phone number on the site, and an email address. Yet it is our fault you couldn't find the time in two months to sign up little Johnny or Suzie to play soccer.It seems that our country is quickly moving to a situation where everyone feels they are entitled to what they want when they want it, and pity those of us who actually are self sufficient.Mon, 17 May 2010 10:11:00 GMTdjackson 22568http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx[quote][b]The Dixie Flatline (5/14/2010)[/b][hr]Well said, and too true, Grant. The discussion has been interesting too.Forums really shouldn't be a resource of last resort, especially in an emergency. A forum is not a help desk. A forum has no service level agreements with anyone posting a question. When all is said and done, a forum is a just a gathering place for people with shared technical and professional interests. People who understand that the participants are all individuals just sharing some of their time to help each other out and swap ideas can get enormous benefits. But forums definitely can't substitute for training, experience, research, and just plain getting your hands dirty trying and figuring stuff out.[/quote]Oooh, good one. I wish I'd thought of it. "A forum has no service level agreements..." Excellently put. I think that sums it up better than I did.Mon, 17 May 2010 05:41:37 GMTGrant Fritcheyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx[quote][b]TheSQLGuru (5/13/2010)[/b][hr]>> I can't count the number of times someone has fired back a "Boy you sure are dumb if you haven't done "X,Y,Z" already" without even reading far enough to see that I'ld already tried "X, Y, and Z" as well as "AA through AZ". I despise that type of poster. They are either padding their ego, padding their posting count or both, but regardless of the reason there is no excuse for getting down on a poster. Well, sometimes the poster can be an @ss too I suppose, often from some sense of entitlement. :([/quote]I freely admit, and humbly apologize, to having done this. It's just easy to screw up sometimes and see a couple of sentences and assume an answer and quickly reel that off without reading the whole question. Just like the people that unintentionally post silly questions, it's possible to unintentionally post a silly answer. You'll probably notice though that those are primarily drive-by postings. Someone zip-lines into the conversation, leaves something brown & smelly behind, and zip-lines back out, never to be seen again.Mon, 17 May 2010 05:38:39 GMTGrant Fritcheyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Ben Holcombe-270296 (5/13/2010)[/b][hr]I completely agree that demanding requests are arrogant and insulting. I hope that I never have the opportunity to work under those individuals posting these requests. The flip side is that I also agree that the novice sometimes feels the wrath of the swiftly swinging pendulum.There is lazy and self entitlement then there is the newbie who really does need a set of training wheels and a strong push on the back. It’s always a rough start but we all want them to succeed.[/quote]And the honest newbie, I hope, gets help here. But, someone, new or experienced, who swoops in with expectations of major solutions to giant problems... they're trying to get something for nothing.Mon, 17 May 2010 05:35:25 GMTGrant Fritcheyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx[quote][b]sburcombe (5/13/2010)[/b][hr]While I agree with everything you've said, I wonder if perhaps you're forgetting how it is to be one of the little guys. I'm in the fortunate position where I can mentor others, but still need help occasionally with the really complicated stuff. I can't speak for anyone else, but I suspect that many do what I do. Spend hours, days, or even weeks, trying to solve a problem. When all else fails, I go to a forum to get other opinions. The forums are not the be-all and end-all, they're a [u]last resort[/u]. Many times I don't even get a response. That could be the reason for caps; at least it might conjure up some interest. Then some of the answers I get are so completely irrelevant and obviously wrong that I wonder if the 'expert' even read the question. But rarely I get one, the needle in the haystack, that's worth wading through all the crud for. I certainly don't expect anyone to do my job for me. I've seen posts where that's clearly what the requestor is looking for, but they're usually few and far between. And if I happen to be the 'expert' on those occasions, that's when I just stop answering the questions. If you spoon-feed someone, they'll keep coming back for more. When I post a question, I'm looking for a collaborator, not a babysitter. But don't waste my time either, by not reading past the first line of the question.[/quote]I am absolutely positive that I both, forget what it's like to be a "little guy" and get daily reminders exactly how "little" I am. The key, at least for me, is the expectactions of the questioner. When I post a question, and I've posted some egregiously stupid ones, a couple of things I try not to do and a couple of things I try to do. I don't post in an emergency mode. That's just silly. You may or may not get someone who knows what they're doing responding, but you can't count on getting a response in a timely fashion. I don't post with any expectation of getting an answer, only the hope of getting one. I do try to define what I've looked at or attempted so that I can avoid the "check to see if it's switched on" type of answers that are mandatory when there is inadequate information provided. I do try to be helpful to those who are helping me, because I know I'm not paying them.It's this stuff that I was hoping to put across, with mixed results. Thanks for the feedback. That's a gift and it's appreciated.Mon, 17 May 2010 05:31:11 GMTGrant Fritcheyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx[quote][b]lmu92 (5/13/2010)[/b][hr]Excellent job, Grant!The only question that remains open is: Where to draw the line?But I guess it's almost impossible to answer...Interview questions, test/homework, almost complete projects, several hundred lines of uncommented and unformatted code, urgent request and the like are easy to put in the "no-go box". But where should consulting begin instead of forum assistance?[/quote]I think the line gets drawn by the indivual's that choose to respond, but I think the questioners will be much happier if they come into this with the right expectations.Mon, 17 May 2010 05:24:17 GMTGrant Fritcheyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxThanks to all the comments. Steve posted this on a day I was going out into the woods, so I'm just now getting back to begin the process of responding. I'm glad to see it struck a chord with a few people.Mon, 17 May 2010 05:23:20 GMTGrant Fritcheyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxWell said, and too true, Grant. The discussion has been interesting too.Forums really shouldn't be a resource of last resort, especially in an emergency. A forum is not a help desk. A forum has no service level agreements with anyone posting a question. When all is said and done, a forum is a just a gathering place for people with shared technical and professional interests. People who understand that the participants are all individuals just sharing some of their time to help each other out and swap ideas can get enormous benefits. But forums definitely can't substitute for training, experience, research, and just plain getting your hands dirty trying and figuring stuff out.Fri, 14 May 2010 22:20:45 GMTThe Dixie Flatlinehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx[quote][b]jorge_gomes98 (5/14/2010)[/b][hr]Ugh!.......James Stover...................how can you say that?I agree that we must work and earn money. Yes, I agree. Its life.But one of the first rules to be an exceptional employee is [b]sharing[/b]. I share information with all my coworkers and all who ask me for help.If at present, we all have a high degree of knowledge, in the past that would not be so! Certainly in the past, there was a need to ask someone for help. Is always like this, always learn something with another person.Share your knowledge!Jorge Gomes [/quote]Wow, what a thoughtful response for my honest opinion. If you had actually read my post, I said: "I share and mentor through my professional network." It's your unfortunate problem if that's not good enough, because I am completely comfortable with it. My professional network extends to people I work with, have worked with, have met at industry functions, user groups, etc. These are people at every level - from juniors to CIO. I share, they share, we all learn from each other. However, I WILL not give away my hard-earned knowledge only to be undercut by it later. This is the ugly side of globalisation - a race to the bottom. I'm not going to run any faster than I absolutely have to. Not broadcasting my knowledge to complete (unappreciative and indignant) strangers is one way to slow this race down.Fri, 14 May 2010 18:44:41 GMTJames Stoverhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx[quote][b]James Stover (5/13/2010)[/b][hr]I stopped being helpful online about 5 years ago. I'm not interested in helping some stranger in the far reaches of <insert developing nation here> to take my hard-earned knowledge for free and then potentially use it to undercut me in my local market. Not to mention that frequently the help was completely unappreciated. My skills are my business and I use them to earn a living. It's not smart business to give away your knowledge for free even if it is to help the community. I share and mentor through my professional network.I also don't give away knowledge in job interviews. If the questions are overly specific or complex, I decline to answer and state my reasons. If I don't know the answer I say so. Hire me if you want the answer and fire me if it's no good.[/quote]The only part of this I agree with is not helping others in other countries that we currently outsource American jobs to, particularly India and China. That has to stop. :-DFri, 14 May 2010 06:49:03 GMTTravisDBAhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxUgh!.......James Stover...................how can you say that?I agree that we must work and earn money. Yes, I agree. Its life.But one of the first rules to be an exceptional employee is [b]sharing[/b]. I share information with all my coworkers and all who ask me for help.If at present, we all have a high degree of knowledge, in the past that would not be so! Certainly in the past, there was a need to ask someone for help. Is always like this, always learn something with another person.Share your knowledge!Jorge Gomes Fri, 14 May 2010 02:43:35 GMTjorge_gomes98http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxI stopped being helpful online about 5 years ago. I'm not interested in helping some stranger in the far reaches of <insert developing nation here> to take my hard-earned knowledge for free and then potentially use it to undercut me in my local market. Not to mention that frequently the help was completely unappreciated. My skills are my business and I use them to earn a living. It's not smart business to give away your knowledge for free even if it is to help the community. I share and mentor through my professional network.I also don't give away knowledge in job interviews. If the questions are overly specific or complex, I decline to answer and state my reasons. If I don't know the answer I say so. Hire me if you want the answer and fire me if it's no good.Thu, 13 May 2010 22:22:09 GMTJames Stoverhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxI try to contribute when I can, but I find that there are an impressive number of people on these forums with substantially more knowledge than me. I have had a few questions answered, sometimes rather quickly and sometimes with much more detail than I expected. The rules I try to live by in the forums:Ask questions with a reasonable scope while providing adequate detail.If I get useful help, make sure to say thanks.Contribute answers that are helpful without actually doing their job for them.Thu, 13 May 2010 14:11:30 GMTDaniel Bowlinhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxWell said Grant.The replies were all interesting, as well. It makes me wonder if some of the issues with the posts is how we as readers interpret them at any given time. Am I having a bad day and is this one of my pet pevies? Did I as a poster say it the same way I would have said it in person? I personnally have a hard time connunication my feelings in writing. :-) before these that is. I have been accused of having my feeling hurt by what someone emailed me because of how I responded. And my feeling never get hurt.Thu, 13 May 2010 13:59:23 GMTjlennartzhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxThanks Grant. This editorial was perfectly timed for me. Having recently encountered several of these where the OP had not tried anything yet because s/he did not understand the requirements or know how to code the entire solution. For those types, my best answer is to hire a [u]consultant[/u].Thu, 13 May 2010 11:51:59 GMTSQLRNNRhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxI enjoyed the article and I also have enjoyed some of the comments. I am fairly new to the SQL community and I have asked for help and responded to a call for help. I also admit that I have missed the mark a few times in my responces. It is a great way to learn but I think part of the curve is terminology. I know early on I frustrated a user with a question that I had spent hours trying to find on google. The problem wasn't my desire to find the answer on my own as much as it was having the vocabulary to enter a search that would return a viable set of results. Once pointed in the right direction I was able to find many example of what I was trying to do. I do have to add though on a side note that I find the SQL community as a whole more willing to help than any other area of IT. While I am new to SQL I have been around the IT community my entire career. compared to many other such boards across IT I can say with complete confidence that this community has been by far the most helpful. I have never gotten the type of un helpful responces I get on a typical windows forum. Actual responce from one forum post on domain policies "Did you install windows server yet?"My responce "Nope I hacked into some one elses server and I am trying to set there group policies."Thu, 13 May 2010 10:36:13 GMTDan.Humphrieshttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx[quote][b]jorge_gomes98 (5/13/2010)[/b][hr]Olá,não me parece que seja tão drástico colocar "Urgent" nos pedidos; aliás, desta forma, pode-se sempre tentar ajudar as pessoas com alguma ordem de prioridade.No entanto, acho que muitas vezes as pessoas abusam da ajuda, pensam que os outros são criados deles e querem a toda a força que lhes façam o trabalho. Assim não dá! Para isso que paguem a uma empresa.In other words, if people wants the job done totaly and imediatly they must pay. nobody is slave![/quote]Eu no falo portugues...but well said.Grant, great editorial and completely agree with you.Thu, 13 May 2010 10:06:00 GMTTrey Stakerhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Lowell (5/13/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]TheSQLGuru (5/13/2010)[/b][hr]>>they're a last resortNo, forums are NOT the last resort! [/quote]TheSQLGuru is right! this forum is one of my first items on my list of resources! this is pretty much what i use for something i don't know off the top of my head:Trying to code it myself.Books Online:Googling SQLServerCentral.com specificallyGoogle in generalAdding a forum post for something i couldn't get my arms around.[/quote]Lowell, I [i]think[/i] what TheSQLGuru meant was Adding a forum post as the last result... where it is in your list also.I would add to your list (after googling SSC specifically): Googling microsoft.com specificallyThu, 13 May 2010 09:39:12 GMTWayneShttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx>> I can't count the number of times someone has fired back a "Boy you sure are dumb if you haven't done "X,Y,Z" already" without even reading far enough to see that I'ld already tried "X, Y, and Z" as well as "AA through AZ". I despise that type of poster. They are either padding their ego, padding their posting count or both, but regardless of the reason there is no excuse for getting down on a poster. Well, sometimes the poster can be an @ss too I suppose, often from some sense of entitlement. :(Thu, 13 May 2010 09:16:32 GMTTheSQLGuruhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx>>No, forums are NOT the last resort!I apologize for not clarifying. Forums are my last resort before going to a consultant.>>How in the world can anyone on a forum waste YOUR time as the poster if they read the first line and then move on to someone else to help?!? It certainly does waste my time when I wade through a ton of code that is clearly irrelevant to the question, if the expert would know if they had read it. While I do appreciate a response, I would rather spend time on one that addresses the question, even if it doesn't answer it:>> I can't count the number of times someone has fired back a "Boy you sure are dumb if you haven't done "X,Y,Z" already" without even reading far enough to see that I'ld already tried "X, Y, and Z" as well as "AA through AZ". Thu, 13 May 2010 09:03:23 GMTsburcombehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx[quote][b]TheSQLGuru (5/13/2010)[/b][hr]>>they're a last resortNo, forums are NOT the last resort! [/quote]TheSQLGuru is right! this forum is one of my first items on my list of resources! this is pretty much what i use for something i don't know off the top of my head:Trying to code it myself.Books Online:Googling SQLServerCentral.com specificallyGoogle in generalAdding a forum post for something i couldn't get my arms around.Thu, 13 May 2010 08:53:48 GMTLowellhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxI completely agree that demanding requests are arrogant and insulting. I hope that I never have the opportunity to work under those individuals posting these requests. The flip side is that I also agree that the novice sometimes feels the wrath of the swiftly swinging pendulum.There is lazy and self entitlement then there is the newbie who really does need a set of training wheels and a strong push on the back. It’s always a rough start but we all want them to succeed.Thu, 13 May 2010 08:47:36 GMTBen Holcombe-270296http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx>>they're a last resortNo, forums are NOT the last resort! If you can't figure it out for yourself, don't have someone at work to assist, can't get someone to help you for FREE, then you can find someone or some entity to help you for FEE. If you or your company has no money for that then either the company will need to reassess it's priority on the matter or you will need to study harder.>>But don't waste my time either, by not reading past the first line of the questionHow in the world can anyone on a forum waste YOUR time as the poster if they read the first line and then move on to someone else to help?!? They wouldn't even be wasting your time (or no more than a few seconds of it) if they gave a response saying your request was too complex for a forum, incomplete or poorly documented, you should get a professional to help you, the moon is in aquarious so I can't help, etc.Thu, 13 May 2010 08:47:00 GMTTheSQLGuruhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxI've been a member here for a while, and my skillset has matured in a large part because i answer questions here.I'd love to see my first 20 posts here on SSC just to see what kind of noob questions I used to ask here before i "grew up";i wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them were things comperable to our "URGENT" examples that i could have solved with some google-fu.Thu, 13 May 2010 08:45:16 GMTLowellhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxGrant's out today (my bad scheduling), but thanks for the responses.I think that some of the experts do forget that it's tough at times, but all caps don't necessarily help. Pushing on volunteers for help isn't the solution. If you're at the end of your rope, you should be calling someone and paying for help. Call MS, call Microsoft Consulting, or a local consulting company. Pressure on those of us doing this for free doesn't help.There are times when experts don't have the answer you need. We might not be any smarter about the situation than you are and might suggest things that seem silly. Maybe they are, maybe we're reaching for a solution when we're not sure, but we're trying. Keep that in mind. If it's not good enough, break out the checkbook.Thu, 13 May 2010 08:43:27 GMTSteve Jones - SSC Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx[quote][b]sburcombe (5/13/2010)[/b][hr] The forums are not the be-all and end-all, they're a [u]last resort[/u]. ... When I post a question, I'm looking for a collaborator, not a babysitter. But don't waste my time either, by not reading past the first line of the question.[/quote]RE: First quoted sentence. For you, me, and some others this is true, however for many people it is false. However, you can usually tell by the content of the question whether someone is approaching the forum as a first or last resort.As for the last quoted part, I agree. I can't count the number of times someone has fired back a "Boy you sure are dumb if you haven't done "X,Y,Z" already" without even reading far enough to see that I'ld already tried "X, Y, and Z" as well as "AA through AZ". It does help to occasionally be pointed to a "How to post questions in this forum" FAQ. Someone posted an excellent article on this a couple of weeks back that really helped me understand the very basic issue of how to ask for help in a way that encourages responses.Thu, 13 May 2010 08:42:30 GMTbwillsie-842793http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxI'm sure that, as some point on these forums, I've asked a question and indicated that I needed an answer in a hurry. I think that, when I read the answer given, I always thank the person answering. But just to re-iterate, I thank everyone on SQL Server Central who has ever answered any of my questions, for your help and input.Thu, 13 May 2010 08:19:05 GMTRod at workhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxWhile I agree with everything you've said, I wonder if perhaps you're forgetting how it is to be one of the little guys. I'm in the fortunate position where I can mentor others, but still need help occasionally with the really complicated stuff. I can't speak for anyone else, but I suspect that many do what I do. Spend hours, days, or even weeks, trying to solve a problem. When all else fails, I go to a forum to get other opinions. The forums are not the be-all and end-all, they're a [u]last resort[/u]. Many times I don't even get a response. That could be the reason for caps; at least it might conjure up some interest. Then some of the answers I get are so completely irrelevant and obviously wrong that I wonder if the 'expert' even read the question. But rarely I get one, the needle in the haystack, that's worth wading through all the crud for. I certainly don't expect anyone to do my job for me. I've seen posts where that's clearly what the requestor is looking for, but they're usually few and far between. And if I happen to be the 'expert' on those occasions, that's when I just stop answering the questions. If you spoon-feed someone, they'll keep coming back for more. When I post a question, I'm looking for a collaborator, not a babysitter. But don't waste my time either, by not reading past the first line of the question.Thu, 13 May 2010 08:18:16 GMTsburcombehttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxThe underlying issue is psychological and is similar to counselling people. Basically by responding to the problem you are, in the mind of the requester, taking ownership of the problem. So if your solution does not work perfectly or is only a partial solution, the requester then gets agrieved at your failure and demands you provide a solution that does work.If you are going to answer then you probably have to give some alternative approaches and stress that it is their problem and they have to think it through to get the most appropriate solution.Thu, 13 May 2010 07:18:19 GMTipounderhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxGood stuff - too bad it won't actually be read by any of those who might need it. :(Thu, 13 May 2010 07:06:45 GMTTheSQLGuruhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspxGreat article Grant! You are the man, and Yes! I get this all the time too. I have a standing motto when it comes to this kind of thing with people. "I will show you the way by lighting up your path for you, but you are the one that has to ultimately walk through the woods, not me." Many times, they do. But there have been some that have just shook their head and stormed off. Those people, generally don't come back. They go find someone else to do their work for them. :-DThu, 13 May 2010 06:52:46 GMTTravisDBAhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic920945-263-1.aspx[quote][b]D.Oc (5/13/2010)[/b][hr]Steve should ban those words (URGENT or IMMEDIATE HELP or NOW) to appear in the title.[/quote]No! those are my favorite threads! "URGENT" posts are like a train wreck or a car accident for me...i just HAVE to slow down and look, just to see the devastation that exists that someone hopes a miracle one line script of code can fix.....Thu, 13 May 2010 06:41:02 GMTLowell