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RE: Finding Training

Jack Corbett — Sat, 20 Mar 2010 06:16:18 GMT

[quote][b]GilaMonster (3/19/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]Steve Jones - Editor (3/19/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]Henrico Bekker (3/18/2010)[/b][hr]When are you coming to South Africa to host a SQL Saturday? ;-)[/quote]South Africa?!?!? Isn't that 3 light days of travel from CO? Can I send Gail in my place?Don't say this too loud. My wife would love to come and probably drag me along if she hears about it.[/quote]Hmm.... Anyone know Steve's wife's email address? :-D[/quote]She does have a blog and she monitors the comments (my wife knows the address, I don't).

RE: Finding Training

SQLRNNR — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:04:47 GMT

Now that I am through the thread of discussion, here are my 2 bits.I buy my training books or use the free materials I can find. I haven't had my employer pay for them. If they want to buy a book, I will make recommendations. I have asked in the past, and it was a run-around experience just for books.I have requested training in the past only in the form of reimbursement for Certification Exams. That was met with mixed reception. I have been required by employers to take this or that training in the past - even at the warning that it was training for a topic that was unnecessary (either we already had the skills, it was outdated material, or the training just was bad). I have requested and been approved for time off work to attend Users Group meetings - so long as there was coverage in the dept. I think that is fair, and the training there is better than the training that comes with a high price tag.I have requested on several occasions for the employer to foot the bill for PASS or similar conferences. That request has been approved twice. The first time was not actually at my request but at the request of the manager from the IT dept of the company we just acquired. I was the beneficiary - and that was awesome. The only other time that it was approved was this year when I bargained to pay half. I think it is a great idea to bargain with your employer to get to the training or conferences that are invaluable to the company and your career. I bargained with them paying for the conference while I covered airfare and hotel. If the employer is willing to pay my salary for the week as an alternative bargaining chip (and not have to take vacation), then that is another fantastic method as well.I think another invaluable tool is to volunteer for certain events or training to help the event run smoothly. This will greatly reduce the cost to you or your employer.

RE: Finding Training

SQLRNNR — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:54:30 GMT

[quote][b]GilaMonster (3/19/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]Steve Jones - Editor (3/19/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]Henrico Bekker (3/18/2010)[/b][hr]When are you coming to South Africa to host a SQL Saturday? ;-)[/quote]South Africa?!?!? Isn't that 3 light days of travel from CO? Can I send Gail in my place?Don't say this too loud. My wife would love to come and probably drag me along if she hears about it.[/quote]Hmm.... Anyone know Steve's wife's email address? :-D[/quote]I'm sure we can find her cell phone number too if you want ([i]insert devil emoticon that is still missing on SSC[/i]).

RE: Finding Training

SQLRNNR — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:50:23 GMT

[quote][b]Jeff Moden (3/19/2010)[/b][hr]I wonder how many employees would be willing to sign a contract saying that if they left the company for another job within a year or two, that they'd have to pay back the training expense?... The Chicken was "loyal".... The Pig was "dedicated". :-P[/quote]Sign me up. I have done this in the past. It is akin to a signing bonus as well. Any authors out there also do the same sort of thing. They get an advance with a promise to deliver - no delivery and you pay back the advance. Sounds reasonably fair.How bad do you want the training?

RE: Finding Training

SQLRNNR — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:46:00 GMT

[quote][b]Grant Fritchey (3/19/2010)[/b][hr]... the one thing I do, any time I can, is point out exactly where I recieved a piece of information that helped the company. If I read a book that had information we needed, I point out that book. If a session I attended at PASS showed information that we used, I make sure everyone involved knows where that information came from. [/quote]I like this idea. I hadn't thought of making it blatantly clear how the training helped the company. It makes total sense though.Thanks Grant.

RE: Finding Training

GilaMonster — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:35:33 GMT

[quote][b]Steve Jones - Editor (3/19/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]Henrico Bekker (3/18/2010)[/b][hr]When are you coming to South Africa to host a SQL Saturday? ;-)[/quote]South Africa?!?!? Isn't that 3 light days of travel from CO? Can I send Gail in my place?Don't say this too loud. My wife would love to come and probably drag me along if she hears about it.[/quote]Hmm.... Anyone know Steve's wife's email address? :-D

RE: Finding Training

Jack Corbett — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 14:32:55 GMT

RE: Finding Training

ken.trock — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 14:06:39 GMT

[quote][b]majorbloodnock (3/19/2010)[/b][hr]Like Phil, my company has a healthy attitude to training; indeed it's an integral section of our regular formal performance reviews. That means, of course, that if either manager or employee spot a training need, it's documented. Come next review, if the training hasn't been forthcoming and has affected performance, that's also documented.[/quote]Same here. Our company encourages employees to take training. Not as much as they used to with the economic downturn but enough is allocated so that we can take 1 big class or attend a conference per year.In big companies (like I work for) training is often already paid for so what's really being spent are credits. Sure, in the end it's real money but to the manager it's not like it's coming out of their own pocket. Far from it. For all I know people are encouraged to pay for training at the end of the year so manager training budgets don't go down. But I won't swear to that.You know that storm that caused all the damage in the northeast US this past weekend? Well I drove 50 miles in that to get to SQL Saturday in Philadelphia! And it was well attended. 175 people or so and one class that was standing room only. Good event.Ken

RE: Finding Training

bethrich — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 13:56:18 GMT

SQL Saturday 33 was absolutely wonderful for those of us who don't have many training opportunities. I work for a government agency that has had no choice but to cut the training budget to the bone. My management paid my mileage to Charlotte and gave me a comp day, while I covered meals and hotel. It's a variation on splitting the costs.Steve, let me add my thanks!

RE: Finding Training

jcrawf02 — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 13:07:06 GMT

[quote][b]Steve Jones - Editor (3/19/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]Henrico Bekker (3/18/2010)[/b][hr]When are you coming to South Africa to host a SQL Saturday? ;-)[/quote]South Africa?!?!? Isn't that 3 light days of travel from CO? Can I send Gail in my place?Don't say this too loud. My wife would love to come and probably drag me along if she hears about it.[/quote]Can you invoke DBCC Timewarp through powershell via iPhone or something to make it smoother? (Gail, you'll have to try that for the Summit next time)

RE: Finding Training

jcrawf02 — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 13:05:37 GMT

[quote][b]staffkits (3/19/2010)[/b][hr]I am also looking for finding online training.because i am so much busy in my office work i have not enough time to take training.I want to join any good online training program.Please tell me how i can join it.[/quote]You've found it, read the articles here, ask questions and answer questions on the forums (look the answers up first - great way to learn). Other forums exist, Microsoft forums, ask.sqlservercentral.com, SQLSaturday.org, BOL, blogs, etc. Also, don't forget about Twitter. #sqlhelp added to any tweet will get you a lot of attention in a short amount of time. if you can't get to Twitter from work (like me now) try twapperkeeper.com to read the feed in an archive, and check out the 'free sql' keyword notebook that I set up, LOTS of free resources there, from webinars to training to videos to whatever else.that should be enough to get you started :-P:-D

RE: Finding Training

staffkits — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:57:48 GMT

I am also looking for finding online training.because i am so much busy in my office work i have not enough time to take training.I want to join any good online training program.Please tell me how i can join it.

RE: Finding Training

dma-669038 — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:49:31 GMT

You can do both, but if you get a choice, go for value. As you age, as jobs dry up, value is more important than your last salary.<<Very well put Steve, thanks. Also in my experience it helps to research if the company you are going into is training friendly and do not hesitate to ask in final interview atleast if they are. Most people are ok with stating their stance, if there is a hesitant silence or 'yeah maybe if you can really use it', or 'we are a small shop, not sure about that' (not all small shops say that but some use it as an excuse) or in simple terms if the answer does not reflect optimism then probably it is not the right place for someone who places high value on training. Also in some cases it is possible to prove value as Grant mentioned in many cases it really isn't - you gain many things which are generic such as networking or theoritical concepts or it does not occur to you to dig into where you got that piece of knowledge instantly, in short this is a pretty tough road to justification although possible sometimes.

RE: Finding Training

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:36:36 GMT

Andy,Bill has a good response, as does Jack, but I'd also add in Grant's note. Use the free training, and then when you use it, make a point of documenting that. I'd say a blog is a great way to do this. It not only helps improve your brand and shows you are a motivated employee, but it also shows that you pay attention and use the resources you have.I also would offer to split costs, or work on some other basis with your boss. Negotiate. If they can't train you this year, then argue for next year. I know lots of people that get a class/conference every other year or every third year. Work out a compromise. Or look to move on. I wouldn't play that as a card, but I would note that training is an issue as you want to grow your career. As someone that has gotten bumps in salary, I'd agree with jcrawf02 in that you want to be more valuable, not more expensive. You can do both, but if you get a choice, go for value. As you age, as jobs dry up, value is more important than your last salary.

RE: Finding Training

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:30:48 GMT

[quote][b]Jeff Moden (3/19/2010)[/b][hr]Right or wrong, their thought is "Train your people and they'll ask for more money or go else where to get it" and that thought is frequently justified by the actions of the employee. I wonder how many employees would be willing to sign a contract saying that if they left the company for another job within a year or two, that they'd have to pay back the training expense?[/quote]This has been standard with both training and certification with a few of the larger companies I've worked for. It's typically been a year past the training date.

RE: Finding Training

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:29:12 GMT

[quote][b]GilaMonster (3/19/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]Henrico Bekker (3/18/2010)[/b][hr]I've been nagging Steve to visit for years. He's scared of the flight. :-D[/quote]She has, and I am a little scared of the flight. More annoyed at thinking of traveling that far. Already dreading a flight to London tomorrow.Can I send Brad in my place?

RE: Finding Training

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:28:06 GMT

[quote][b]Grant Fritchey (3/19/2010)[/b][hr]I've also been lucky to work for a company that is pretty good about training (although that's changing a bit). But the one thing I do, any time I can, is point out exactly where I recieved a piece of information that helped the company. If I read a book that had information we needed, I point out that book. If a session I attended at PASS showed information that we used, I make sure everyone involved knows where that information came from. I can't tell you that works to ensure I keep receiving training, but it has to accumulate to show the use of training.[/quote]That's a great point, Grant. I need to remind people to do this at PASS, SQL Saturday, etc.

RE: Finding Training

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:26:39 GMT

[quote][b]Henrico Bekker (3/18/2010)[/b][hr]When are you coming to South Africa to host a SQL Saturday? ;-)[/quote]South Africa?!?!? Isn't that 3 light days of travel from CO? Can I send Gail in my place?Don't say this too loud. My wife would love to come and probably drag me along if she hears about it.

RE: Finding Training

dma-669038 — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:34:29 GMT

I am also among the lucky folks who work for training friendly companies. I went through so many though that i actually looked for a training friendly company in my search and found them. My company sponsors user group meetings and sends its people to the best training there is and am going to PASS again for third year in a row sponsored by them. I have worked for those 'meanies' before, by that i mean those who won't spend even on books/magazines - some of them are worth arguing with, majority in my experience are simply aren't. Training comes from the employer's belief that his employes need to learn/grow/do a better job and lots of them out there just dont care enough, they are fine if you just do the bare minimum or you sweat it out somehow to find the solution. I feel really sorry for those who have to put up with that stuff, personally i just couldn't.

RE: Finding Training

Jeff Moden — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:12:04 GMT

[quote][b]jcrawf02 (3/19/2010)[/b][hr](fyi, these are all general 'you', I know that Jeff is not saying he is doing this)[/quote]Heh... Correct... I should have mentioned that. I can just imagine the hate mail I might get if someone took what I said as a practice rather than an observation. :-)

RE: Finding Training

Bill Nicolich — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:12:03 GMT

[quote][b]Jeff Moden (3/19/2010)[/b]I wonder how many employees would be willing to sign a contract saying that if they left the company for another job within a year or two, that they'd have to pay back the training expense?[/quote]I've done this. This is a legitimate solution to the problem Jeff pointed out. An employee gets augmented by training and then that strengthens their bargaining position for salary and jobs elsewhere. That's just reality. So, you require a financial commitment from the employee in the case that they leave. The employee incurs no cost as long as they stay. That's fair and it gets past the gridlock.

RE: Finding Training

Bill Nicolich — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:03:21 GMT

Andy:Yeah. It'd be tough to get buy-in from someone who doesn't seem to care about you as a person. I'll give that some thought. I haven't encountered that situation.Your situation is okay. You have the precedent in place. Lots of people don't even have that. Protect the precedent. Put it out in the open that you support the need to make short-term adjustments due to budget pressures - but you want to make sure that over the long-term, the environment doesn't digress. Even in lean times, it's tough to argue that there isn't room in a budget for a book - in a medium-size company.You've been served, though. You were told to exhaust the free training available - and really you need to do that before going back to ask for expenses, I'd say.

RE: Finding Training

jcrawf02 — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:57:53 GMT

[quote][b]Jeff Moden (3/19/2010)[/b][hr]One of the problems I've found that people face in getting some paid training is their own salary and position. Lots of salaried folks are underpaid especially if you consider how many hours they put in. The boss wants to keep these dedicated plow horses but may not be able to pay them more. Good training usually makes a person more valuable... especially to someone else who may offer a bit more pay and shorter hours.As explained to me by several managerial friends, paying for training can be a real "Catch 22" for a lot of managers and companies. Right or wrong, their thought is "Train your people and they'll ask for more money or go else where to get it" and that thought is frequently justified by the actions of the employee. I wonder how many employees would be willing to sign a contract saying that if they left the company for another job within a year or two, that they'd have to pay back the training expense?In other words, if you want some company paid training, you have to show that it'll be worth it to the company that's paying for it and, one way or another, that's the bottom line... what does the company get out of it? Companies will jump through hoops if the answer is "verifiable dedication".[/quote]The company gets the ROI of an employee who gets more done quicker, or if not quicker, more effectively. If my boss is willing to pay for my training, even if I don't get the raise that I want, I personally would be less likely to leave because I'm getting a benefit from the training. Conversely, even if they give me a bump in pay, but are totally unwilling to support my training, then I'm likely looking to go elsewhere. I want to be more valuable, not just more expensive.I am as loyal as my contract demands, but I will only be dedicated when I see that you are as interested in my professional development as I am. (in other words, I'd sign that contract, and have before)If you're attempting to manage by sitting on training costs to stifle your employees into staying put, well, you ain't worth much. (fyi, these are all general 'you', I know that Jeff is not saying he is doing this)

RE: Finding Training

Cris E — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:54:33 GMT

In small companies a lot is dictated by how the business is going. If we have money it's because we're working a lot, so we don't have time. If we aren't working that much and have some time, we have no money. Right now we have no money. :( I think training is great: above and beyond improved effectiveness and profitability for the company, it shows respect for the value of employees and interest in their development. That said, I'd rather have the pay cut reversed before any real money gets spent on training. (Maslow's hierarchy and all that: we had some money last fall but we spent it on increasing our SAN capacity. That was [b]totally [/b]better than training.) But after fixing the payroll, my next priority would be for classes. It really improves the quality of work and the morale when people stop cutting corners and moving towards best practices.

RE: Finding Training

Jack Corbett — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:49:20 GMT

I'd suggest starting by going to the free stuff you can get to, user groups, SQLSaturday's etc... Also, be willing to pay your own way to show that you value the training enough, and try to negotiate being able to go without using vacation days. Too often I think managers consider conferences and training like vacation and don't want to pay for it because of that, but if you can show you value it enough to pay for it then they may see it differently.I work at a non-profit currently, that I know doesn't have a lot of extra money (neither do I, but I digress), so I've paid for certification exams, books, and travel. Now my boss is willing to spend some on those things.

RE: Finding Training

@DBA_ANDY — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:43:50 GMT

To Bill: What if they don't care about you as a person? That seems to be a tall order in today's "people are just interchangeable as servers" IT workplace.I work for a medium-to-large company that used to have what I felt to be a positive training budget/environment (one conference a year plus books and magazines), but the last few years have been hard for us just like so many other companies - and as is so often the case, training was one of the first things out the window.How do you justify sending your remaining staff to training when you have cut people? Logical answers like "The remaining staff still have to be able to do their jobs" are not valid to our management unfortunately.The answer we get back is "use the free training from the vendor" - SQLSaturday's and prerecorded webcasts are nice, but they are still nothing compared to the knowledge and other experiences available at PASS or Connections.Other than looking for another job - HELP!AndyG

RE: Finding Training

Jeff Moden — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:38:16 GMT

One of the problems I've found that people face in getting some paid training is their own salary and position. Lots of salaried folks are underpaid especially if you consider how many hours they put in. The boss wants to keep these dedicated plow horses but may not be able to pay them more. Good training usually makes a person more valuable... especially to someone else who may offer a bit more pay and shorter hours.As explained to me by several managerial friends, paying for training can be a real "Catch 22" for a lot of managers and companies. Right or wrong, their thought is "Train your people and they'll ask for more money or go else where to get it" and that thought is frequently justified by the actions of the employee. I wonder how many employees would be willing to sign a contract saying that if they left the company for another job within a year or two, that they'd have to pay back the training expense?In other words, if you want some company paid training, you have to show that it'll be worth it to the company that's paying for it and, one way or another, that's the bottom line... what does the company get out of it? Companies will jump through hoops if the answer is "verifiable dedication".Of course, that reminds me of a little parable... what's the difference between being "loyal" to a company and being "dedicated" to a company? The answer is that you have to think about a "Ham'n'Eggs" breakfast.............. The Chicken was "loyal".... The Pig was "dedicated". :-P

RE: Finding Training

Bill Nicolich — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:09:11 GMT

Let's look at the case where there's no budget history of training or resources - and an employee wants to change that.Work toward an eventual compromise. People don't like to say "NO" repeatedly - especially if they care about you as a person. So, you find expensive, relevant in-person training and ask for it straight out with the likely answer of "NO." Then you wait a couple weeks and ask for something less expensive - maybe online-based. The answer is "NO." Then ask for a good book. My three-year-old uses this persistence tactic on me and it tends to lead to an eventual compromise.Chip away at the reasons behind the "NO." Ask your supervisor to "go to bat" for you and try to get you the resources that you feel you need. If the reasons have anything to do with your work quality or productivity, take solid steps to rectify the situation.

RE: Finding Training

jcrawf02 — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 07:01:09 GMT

Those of you in SA, band together and work out a SQLSaturday on your own, that doesn't require Steve's involvement. I see at least three volunteers here alone, and know that there are more of you on the forums...

RE: Finding Training

GilaMonster — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:46:55 GMT

[quote][b]Henrico Bekker (3/18/2010)[/b][hr]When are you coming to South Africa to host a SQL Saturday? ;-)[/quote]Silly question, but why does someone international have to come down here to organise an event?Of the three people asking for Steve to visit, how many are based in JHB/PTA?I've been nagging Steve to visit for years. He's scared of the flight. :-D

RE: Finding Training

Grant Fritchey — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:35:07 GMT

I've also been lucky to work for a company that is pretty good about training (although that's changing a bit). But the one thing I do, any time I can, is point out exactly where I recieved a piece of information that helped the company. If I read a book that had information we needed, I point out that book. If a session I attended at PASS showed information that we used, I make sure everyone involved knows where that information came from. I can't tell you that works to ensure I keep receiving training, but it has to accumulate to show the use of training.

RE: Finding Training

caroline.boyd-1106617 — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:28:30 GMT

I have had success by putting the request on an annual review. Especially if there is a section that asks what your manager can do for you.

RE: Finding Training

AndrewJacksonZA — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:30:06 GMT

+1 on coming to South Africa! :-)

RE: Finding Training

majorbloodnock — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:24:09 GMT

Like Phil, my company has a healthy attitude to training; indeed it's an integral section of our regular formal performance reviews. That means, of course, that if either manager or employee spot a training need, it's documented. Come next review, if the training hasn't been forthcoming and has affected performance, that's also documented.

RE: Finding Training

SQLPhil — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 02:25:37 GMT

I'm really lucky in that our company has a good policy on training and we generally have quite a healthy budget. The only difficulty I have is when I want to do some training for myself or for the guys in my team that is perhaps crossing the boundaries of our immediate remit of work. But if I can make a good enough case for the training then I can usually press on.One of the biggest problems I have though is finding good quality training (which seems to be more difficult to find these days since the economic downturn).

RE: Finding Training

Matthew Joughin — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:37:06 GMT

Ditto on when are you coming to South Africa :)My company only generally attends one conference annually: Microsoft DevDays.Interesting: its always been free before, but this year there is a cost. I think its to make people serious about attending, because often people would say they were coming, and then didn't, frustrating for those who wanted to go but couldn't because it was "full".Other than that, I have found an online resource that makes a whole lot of sense:[url=http://www.safaribooksonline.com]http://www.safaribooksonline.com[/url]For a monthly fee you get access to, on the plan we are on, up to 10 books. Considering programming/IT books are generally minimum $100 each in South Africa, and they become out of date before you take another breath, I think this service works really well.Its cost effective, takes up no space on your self, and can be shared by staff members, and you can always get access to the latest books.This is what we use for training, and it works really well :)

RE: Finding Training

Henrico Bekker — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 23:23:25 GMT

It's sometimes difficult getting the Manager to pay for training....especially when based on a client site.Every individuals career lenght and training path is essentially linked to the duration of the contract with the client..When are you coming to South Africa to host a SQL Saturday? ;-)

Finding Training

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:27:03 GMT

Comments posted to this topic are about the item [B]Finding Training[/B]