InstantForum.NET v2.9.0SQLServerCentralhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/notifications@sqlservercentral.comWed, 22 May 2013 02:02:18 GMT20http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxI agree with a previous post by blandry, today's technology moves so fast... it can be kind of frustrating. However, this means that if you don't actively try to learn more, you will fall behind. Someone else pointed out, if your happy with your current job you don't need to focus on the training as much, I agree with this for the most part, but you'll probably be more likely to be layed off.Something that seems to have changed in business world (around the 1980's) it seems like its easier to move up the ladder by switching companies. Many companies openly state that they do not expect someone to work there for longer than 5 years, so why should they invest in the employee?Where I work my boss values me quite abit, and if I put in a serious request to go to some sort of training, he'll consider it. I think he see's it as a way to keep me around, generally I'm happy with some good books and a few hrs company time to learn them, which is far cheaper than many of the options I've seen.Me personally, I love to learn, the biggest problem I have is time, so our arrangement works pretty well.Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:38:23 GMTKris-420132http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxGuess that means some of us will be buried in the cloud...Mon, 19 Oct 2009 10:52:23 GMTjcrawf02http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxAh the old days.I had a special plaid jacket that I wore in the office only. Two outside pokects on each side and two pockets on each side inside. I kept routines wrapped in rubber bands in all the pokects. It was my walking routine library.I've wired the boards too.Then there is the old card joke: "How do they bury main-frame programmers? Face down, nine edge first."Mon, 19 Oct 2009 10:48:09 GMTCharles Kincaidhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspx[quote][b]bitbucket-25253 (10/18/2009)[/b][hr]Charles Kincaid - let me take you further back onto memory lane, we replaced the 709 with a 1401... Remember when coding was not accomplished with a word processor, or SSMS? Let us go back to the days of punched cards and card punch machines where a single spelling mistake, one wrong character and the entire card had to be re-punched, or if it was a truly a simple mistake using a bit of scotch tape to cover the punched hole. Working with card readers, card sorters and tabulating machines and wiring their boards. Dropping your program card deck and sitting there putting them back into the correct order ............ ah those were the days of long hours and not much productivity. Afraid much of the references here, read like a foreign language to the young whipper snappers who program now.[/quote]My first program was on a wire board when they were still used regularly but, yeah... I'm a whipper snapper. By the time I started with that, BitBucket was already 3 days older than dirt. ;-) We had one of those new fangled key punch machines where you could add a program card that you'd punched. It also came with a plastic "Unit 0" instead of a metal one. Of course, real paper tape was much more fun... CHAR(127) was one of my favorites especially since the tape would always rip right on that character. And 110 baud was greased lightning.Sun, 18 Oct 2009 18:50:24 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxCharles Kincaid - let me take you further back onto memory lane, we replaced the 709 with a 1401... Remember when coding was not accomplished with a word processor, or SSMS? Let us go back to the days of punched cards and card punch machines where a single spelling mistake, one wrong character and the entire card had to be re-punched, or if it was a truly a simple mistake using a bit of scotch tape to cover the punched hole. Working with card readers, card sorters and tabulating machines and wiring their boards. Dropping your program card deck and sitting there putting them back into the correct order ............ ah those were the days of long hours and not much productivity. Afraid much of the references here, read like a foreign language to the young whipper snappers who program now.Sun, 18 Oct 2009 11:25:42 GMTbitbucket-25253http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxNice post. I heard someone speaking last week about iPhone development. Said the iPhone has the capabilities, though not the storage (yet) of the old G3s, which aren't that old!Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:00:04 GMTSteve Jones - SSC Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxHey bit. Glad you got the courage to post. 709? Good greif. Here I thought that my 1403 and 7079 days made me the old man. Very glad you are hanging in there. Some of our hand-held Mobile computers beat the socks off of 360-40's for raw power but lack the on-line storage.Keep up the good work. We need folks just like you and me to remind these youngsters just how good they have got it.Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:06:46 GMTCharles Kincaidhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxTook a while before I got up enough courage to post to this forum but here goes.Started in '50s - college degree in Mechanical Engineering - when engineering was the rage. Engineers ran companies were CEOs, Members of the Board of Directors.Watch life change with the gradual switch over to the Bean Counters (Accounts) taking over the CEO and Board positions.Luckily I worked for a company that was generous in supporting an employees education. Worked for and received a Masters Degree in Business Management.In the 1960's Watched as computers began to be felt in industry - now this is back in the heady days of the IBM big iron, (IBM 709, the last vacuum tube computer that IBM made) took the opportunity to learn how to program in the archaic Fortran 1 language. Programmed using it to develop rocket engines. Gradually switched over to what was then known as a minicomputer, a Hewlett-Packard Series 1000 and became acquainted with hierarchal databases and used those databases to develop a complete General Ledger accounting system.From there moved onto desktop computers with first using DOS and the C language but rapidly moving to Microsoft Windows 3.0 operating system, relational database and Microsoft's SQL Server.Now attempting to grasp dot net concepts, and more and more of T-SQL. It has given me a varying life, but a life full of challenges, and best of all a life full of satisfaction.To me not to learn is but to intellectually die.To all I would say continue to learn, for not to learn will in 10 or 20 years having you look back and say "I wish I did", and for those of you in this position it is not too late to catch up!Please excuse me for being so long winded and verbose, hey humor an old man, please.Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:47:18 GMTbitbucket-25253http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxI think it does count in interviews, you should bring it up.Sat, 17 Oct 2009 09:52:22 GMTSteve Jones - SSC Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Steve Jones - Editor (10/15/2009)[/b][hr]I agree with Silverfox here. Don't take the "a degree/certification/etc shows an effort" to mean that the lack of it shows no effort. They aren't equivalent.If you have them, or work on them, it does show something. I still want to know what your skills are and how you use them.If you don't have the "paper", it means that I look to see what you have done. And I might question why you haven't done those things, but I'm looking for a reason, an answer. I'm not attacking you or holding it against you.[/quote]Ok boss, I am so sorry for having the wrong attitude. Seriously, I did not mean it that way. I have worked very hard to be where I am today. That is knowledge wise not job wise. I turned my whole career on it's head when, at the age of 40, I made a 360 degree turn and decided to start doing computer programming. It is now 10 years and I learned everything I know from my boss and the internet. Yes, no papers and my boss (due to lack of finances) cannot send me on courses and same reason why I cannot send myself. Look at my track record in SSC but with job interviews that does not count.Sat, 17 Oct 2009 08:25:37 GMTManie Versterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxI agree with Silverfox here. Don't take the "a degree/certification/etc shows an effort" to mean that the lack of it shows no effort. They aren't equivalent.If you have them, or work on them, it does show something. I still want to know what your skills are and how you use them.If you don't have the "paper", it means that I look to see what you have done. And I might question why you haven't done those things, but I'm looking for a reason, an answer. I'm not attacking you or holding it against you.Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:04:35 GMTSteve Jones - SSC Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Manie Verster (10/15/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]eyespi20 (10/14/2009)[/b][hr]I believe that we are each responsible for ourselves. It's great if your employer offers to pay for seminars or even tuition reimbursement for a degree, but at the end of the day, if you don't invest in yourself, then you sell yourself short. I attend every SQL event that I can afford to and have taken vacation from work in order to attend some of them. I am also currently enrolled in an online college to get my formal degree in IT - not so much because I'm learning a lot new with these courses, but having that "piece of paper" is a visible sign that I am dedicated, open to new ideas and able to commit myself to a course. Those things speak volumes to employers.[/quote]So, I am not dedicated 'cause I don't have the paper? Interesting!!![/quote]I think that the point being made is that an employer might consider someone to be dedicated if they have an academic paper :-D, doesnt mean that you are not dedicated...Thu, 15 Oct 2009 02:16:10 GMTSilverfoxhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspx[quote][b]eyespi20 (10/14/2009)[/b][hr]I believe that we are each responsible for ourselves. It's great if your employer offers to pay for seminars or even tuition reimbursement for a degree, but at the end of the day, if you don't invest in yourself, then you sell yourself short. I attend every SQL event that I can afford to and have taken vacation from work in order to attend some of them. I am also currently enrolled in an online college to get my formal degree in IT - not so much because I'm learning a lot new with these courses, but having that "piece of paper" is a visible sign that I am dedicated, open to new ideas and able to commit myself to a course. Those things speak volumes to employers.[/quote]So, I am not dedicated 'cause I don't have the paper? Interesting!!!Thu, 15 Oct 2009 00:50:33 GMTManie Versterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxI believe that we are each responsible for ourselves. It's great if your employer offers to pay for seminars or even tuition reimbursement for a degree, but at the end of the day, if you don't invest in yourself, then you sell yourself short. I attend every SQL event that I can afford to and have taken vacation from work in order to attend some of them. I am also currently enrolled in an online college to get my formal degree in IT - not so much because I'm learning a lot new with these courses, but having that "piece of paper" is a visible sign that I am dedicated, open to new ideas and able to commit myself to a course. Those things speak volumes to employers.Wed, 14 Oct 2009 10:13:26 GMTeyespi20http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxI've mainly worked for small companies, and I've been responsible for my own training in all of those jobs.But I seriously doubt anyone could come up with a training program that would work for me anyway, since I have my own way of studying and learning.Mon, 12 Oct 2009 08:59:45 GMTGSquaredhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Steve Jones - Editor (10/12/2009)[/b][hr]I'm not sure that employers are as concerned about you being current in your field, especially as educating yourself without experience might not be the greatest way to develop skill. However the fact that you're making an effort impresses people. I think that alone goes a long way towards showing you are a good person to hire.[/quote]Being as current as you can in your field is the most important thing, just been for an interview recently and the fact that I know sql 2008, even though they only have a few instances made a big difference and that fact that I use it every day and gave examples of how I use it. Sounds better than someone saying i read a book or attended a course on sql 2008. knowledge without experience is of limited benefit if you are going in for a role that needs you to hit the ground running, which describes most freelance jobs anyways.Mon, 12 Oct 2009 08:24:07 GMTSilverfoxhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxI'm not sure that employers are as concerned about you being current in your field, especially as educating yourself without experience might not be the greatest way to develop skill. However the fact that you're making an effort impresses people. I think that alone goes a long way towards showing you are a good person to hire.Mon, 12 Oct 2009 07:54:56 GMTSteve Jones - SSC Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxKeeping your skills current is simply not an option in these times, regardless of whether you are a freelancer or full time employee. Competition for work is fierce (at least in this part of the world - UK) and employers find themselves able to take their pick from an ever increasing pool of IT talent. Certifications, Degrees, all good but bear in mind that at the end of the day employers are looking for people to solve their problems and if you can't demonstrate an ability to do this then you are likely to be passed over regardless of the number of letters that trail after your name. Sun, 11 Oct 2009 21:07:16 GMTOTFhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspx[quote][b]hangxliu (10/10/2009)[/b][hr]I think you should always invest on your career, most of the time, out of your own pocket. I buy books and learn from them to upgrade or transform my skills into future proof technologies. Normally you don't get chance to practice those trendy skills at work as they may be way ahead of what is essentially required by your current work. Then you might have to invest on setting up home work environment to get solid hands on experience to back up your claim on your experience in the interview. You will be surprised that a few hundred bucks can get all you want (a laptop and a SQL Server developer edition), and the return is rewarding. Getting a degree is only useful for getting your foot in the door. However obtaining higher degrees in IT while you are already working in the industry is waste of time, as most university teachings are way behind the industry. Hang from Australia[/quote]True. I am from Australia. In non-IT companies here there's a fundamental understanding of new technologies having been "tested by the world" if they are at least one cycle old. For example, the only day the company I worked for would adopt SQL2005 is when there's SP1 available. Migration takes time, so they are ALWAYS behind the whole world. While converting their cubes 2000 stopped being supported.I have seen people stuck at their current work (MSSQL2000, MSAS, ASP) in year 2008-9 having no chance to practice even already passed version of Sql server.As for IT degrees, true, but I would not discount value of getting some MBA or E-Business degree if you plan to progress onto some middle and then general management layer.Sat, 10 Oct 2009 21:31:02 GMTVALEKhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxI think you should always invest on your career, most of the time, out of your own pocket. I buy books and learn from them to upgrade or transform my skills into future proof technologies. Normally you don't get chance to practice those trendy skills at work as they may be way ahead of what is essentially required by your current work. Then you might have to invest on setting up home work environment to get solid hands on experience to back up your claim on your experience in the interview. You will be surprised that a few hundred bucks can get all you want (a laptop and a SQL Server developer edition), and the return is rewarding. Getting a degree is only useful for getting your foot in the door. However obtaining higher degrees in IT while you are already working in the industry is waste of time, as most university teachings are way behind the industry. Hang from AustraliaSat, 10 Oct 2009 05:18:28 GMThangxliuhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Manie Verster (10/9/2009)[/b][hr]I am glad to say that it looks like the banks in South Africa goes out of their way to help people develop. [/quote]Some yes, some no. Bear in mind that showing an interest in education and training is good advertising (at least here).From experience working for banks, one had the attitude that if you want training you're welcome, providing the cost comes from your own pocket and the days from your vacation, the other went completely the other way and required training (company paid) as part of job requirements.Sat, 10 Oct 2009 02:45:04 GMTGilaMonsterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Steve Jones - Editor (10/9/2009)[/b][hr]Great to see so many people investing in themselves and taking responsibility for their career. Just by visiting SQLServerCentral you're doing that. Learning, reading, asking/answering questions, those are part of your investment. Maybe not all of it, but it's some of it.It doesn't have to be just $$, or even many $$. There are lots of places on the web that will help you learn, books help, there are lots of cheap ways to educate yourself. Even employers that won't give you $$ will often give you something almost as valuable: time. If your boss will allow you time to study/train/learn, take advantage of it. Set yourself an appointment to work on your career.[/quote]Hi Steve, I agree that a person do not need to invest $$$ and that SSC is a great investment and yes, I invested a lot of time learning from SSC but when it comes to the job interview then they want to see proof of that investment. Anyway, thanks for a great website. This site has taught me a lot.Fri, 09 Oct 2009 23:19:41 GMTManie Versterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Silverfox (10/9/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]VALEK (10/9/2009)[/b][hr]Imagine this.. You work in a medium sized company, using MSSQL2005 and nothing else.They are very tight on budget, try to be productive, focused and specialised, unlike government orgs and banks where there's a great variety of things.You would like to learn COgnos and TM1. THere is no bloody way this company would pay for it. But it is not a secret that if you have MSSQL expertise and Cognos and TM1 you open youself to another several thousand cool jobs.So what do we do? blindly pay and go for a course? Or download a cracked/evaluation version and learn ourselves for free but with no paper given in the end of the learning?[/quote]I think your view on banks is misguided, having just previously worked for one of the biggest investment banks in america if not globally. we were very restricted in what we had access to, technology wise. I can say that working for banks does not expand your skill set very much if anything it restricts. all knowledge is helpful, but how you apply that knowledge is key.[/quote]I am glad to say that it looks like the banks in South Africa goes out of their way to help people develop. I hear very often that the banks are offering to pay for some (especially IT) course and you can attend this for free and afterwards (if necessary) they will help you find a job.Now you might say: "But that is not for employees." but I do not see why they would do it for the public and not for their employees. I would like to get a job in the banks in SA.Fri, 09 Oct 2009 23:09:53 GMTManie Versterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxIn my 18 year career, I have not been fortunate enough to have my employers invest in me through training. The majority of my training has come from my own effort in self training. What little formal training that I have received has been totally out of my pocket. I understand that the employer needs to have a return on its investments, training being one of them. It is hard to demonstrate that the training will lower the total cost of ownership through lessening that amount of time needed to complete a task. Many times the quality of the solution will be greater because you have the necessary training to make an educated choice. Some companies will pay for training if you agree to stick with the company for a specified period of time. I would jump at this in a heartbeat.Fri, 09 Oct 2009 19:38:35 GMTRobert Ederhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxWithout a doubt. You snooze you lose (your job).Fri, 09 Oct 2009 10:45:23 GMTnotquitexenahttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxI've started coming in to work an hour earlier so I can study (and do it in relative peace). If my kids go to bed nicely I even get some time at night. It's amazing how much material you can get through in an hour without interruptions.Fri, 09 Oct 2009 10:12:33 GMTSteven.Howeshttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxGreat to see so many people investing in themselves and taking responsibility for their career. Just by visiting SQLServerCentral you're doing that. Learning, reading, asking/answering questions, those are part of your investment. Maybe not all of it, but it's some of it.It doesn't have to be just $$, or even many $$. There are lots of places on the web that will help you learn, books help, there are lots of cheap ways to educate yourself. Even employers that won't give you $$ will often give you something almost as valuable: time. If your boss will allow you time to study/train/learn, take advantage of it. Set yourself an appointment to work on your career.Fri, 09 Oct 2009 10:09:15 GMTSteve Jones - SSC Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxI don't understand not taking advantage of a library. I'd love to be able to have a resource like that, I'm slowly building my own and one day i hope to have the time to read them.Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:59:16 GMTSteven.Howeshttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Carla Wilson-484785 (10/9/2009)[/b][hr]This year, my boss suggested to a co-worker that he take a specific class, and that co-worker has complained about it! It drives me crazy to see people who DON'T want to learn![/quote]I have never understood that.When I worked at the bank, I used to mail interesting articles/blog posts to the rest of the DBA team. One guy asked me to stop sending as he just deleted the mails. I don't understand.Then there was the other DBA who insisted that the company was responsible for training him, demanded that the company pay for training courses but never put any effort of his own in. We had a substantial SQL library there, I think I was the only one who read any of the book.Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:53:52 GMTGilaMonsterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspx[quote][b]GilaMonster (10/9/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]Silverfox (10/9/2009)[/b][hr]it is true I could read books or attend courses but I would be lying to myself if I though that made me qualified to go to a client that needs someone to build a datawarehouse from scratch. that would make me no better than some of the recent topics from people who think they can lie their way into a dba role.[/quote]Then I guess I'm no better than our Italian friend. I did my first data warehousing project for a client a month after moving to consulting with no prior DW experience. My colleague designed it and left the entire implementation to me. Done two more since. I don't claim to be an expert on data warehousing, far from it. I can do the simple stuff, defer the complex stuff to my colleague and learn from him.I won't do anything for a client that I haven't played with before, but testing out stuff at home, installing, fiddling, breaking, fixing, etc counts (for me at least) as played with[/quote]There is a hell of a difference between you and the italian, so dont look at it in that context. I used to work with a ex-microsoft DBA , we both worked at BAA, when we both left after than I went to CitiBank and he went to Barclays, what he done at barclays was DW, but he had no experience but he was told it wasnt a problem. maybe he was lucky in that regard but I am always aware of my limitations sql server wise and dont waste my time or client if i have any doubts about my ability to do that role. cannot believe you compared yourself to that italian :pinch:Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:44:00 GMTSilverfoxhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxIANGS (I Am Not Gail Shaw :-P ) but I would consider it valid to have read a book, played on your own, and listed it as 'familiar with [insert tech here]'. As long as you're up-front, and confident that you can do what you're promising to on-time and responsibly, you're good to go. Now if I were hiring Gail to do something and she said she hadn't actually done it in real work experience, I don't think I'd care as much. I doubt she could do a shoddy job if she tried, it'd keep her up at night. More than she already is.:hehe:Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:41:20 GMTjcrawf02http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Kenneth Wymore (10/9/2009)[/b][hr]You never know what the future will hold so I think it pays to be diligent in advancing your own skills even if you can't put them into practice at your place of work. At my last job I constantly checked out new software and tools that I thought were interesting without the company paying for training. I would spend time on the weekends when the weather was bad or sometimes late at night trying out new tools and trying to further my existing skill sets even though I knew the company would not adopt many of them. This helped me immensely when I switched jobs and found my new company used many of the tools that I had been tinkering with on my own dime.[/quote]I agree with several people that it's important to stay aware of the current technology trends and invest in training yourself, either formally or informally. I have had to make some major career changes over the past 25 years, and I learned immediately how important it was to invest in myself.I've paid a lot of money for formal classes as well as buying training manuals etc. to learn on my own. Sometimes my company has paid for one-two day semainers.This year, my boss suggested to a co-worker that he take a specific class, and that co-worker has complained about it! It drives me crazy to see people who DON'T want to learn!Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:37:02 GMTCarla Wilson-484785http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Silverfox (10/9/2009)[/b][hr]it is true I could read books or attend courses but I would be lying to myself if I though that made me qualified to go to a client that needs someone to build a datawarehouse from scratch. that would make me no better than some of the recent topics from people who think they can lie their way into a dba role.[/quote]Then I guess I'm no better than our Italian friend. I did my first data warehousing project for a client a month after moving to consulting with no prior DW experience. My colleague designed it and left the entire implementation to me. Done two more since. I don't claim to be an expert on data warehousing, far from it. I can do the simple stuff, defer the complex stuff to my colleague and learn from him.I won't do anything for a client that I haven't played with before, but testing out stuff at home, installing, fiddling, breaking, fixing, etc counts (for me at least) as played withFri, 09 Oct 2009 09:30:24 GMTGilaMonsterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxI almost was not going to weigh in on this. But it's Friday, and it's me. :rolleyes:I have had employer paid training and it was helpful. Then I've had access to training materials owned by the employer that I used after hours. I have taken courses and those are great too. I tend to by my own books. Yes they get outdated but that is because our industry changes so fast. I would rather have an outdated book than to be outdated myself.Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:30:04 GMTCharles Kincaidhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Fatal Exception Error (10/9/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]Loner (10/9/2009)[/b][hr][quote]People working for the government have no motivation to change or learn anything new. I am very frustrated now at my position.:angry:[/quote]This is so true and one of the reasons why I am never working for the government again. That and there is no way to work around the office politics.My personal stance is its fine if my employer does not want to pay for my training. That shows how much they value you as an individual. I will train myself for my next job.[/quote]Re: govt: I disagree with this. In my situation, working for government, I am challeneged every day learning new technologies and techniques regularly. Maybe my situation is unusual but I haven't been bored once since I've been here. I look forward to work each day.Now that that's out of the way... I agree with being responsible for one's own training and education. It's important to remain on top of the trends in technology. If your employer won't pay for it, you need to find a way to do it yourself. It isn't easy and much of what you learn is outdated pretyy quickly but you still have to do it.Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:18:12 GMTOCTomhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspx[quote][b]GilaMonster (10/9/2009)[/b][hr]Absolutely without question yes. As a consultant it's even more important than for a full time employee. When you're consulting, up to date, deep knowledge = work. If there's stuff you don't know then that's potential work that you're losing out on.Whether the knowledge is acquired by formal courses, books, conferences or just playing around depends, but the keeping up to date is not optional. I pay for my own training, have for quite some years. When I worked for the bank I still bought my own books, bank paid for others and for exams. Now I pay for books, conferences and any other training material I need.I'm doing my M.Sc, but that's not for work, that's because I want to study formally further than undergrad.[/quote]Dont necessary agree with some of that, being freelance for practically all of my career. deep knowledge is just deep knowledge, without experience of doing that at a client, it means very little. As an example I dont apply for any work that involves datawarehousing, purely because I have never done that at a client. it is true I could read books or attend courses but I would be lying to myself if I though that made me qualified to go to a client that needs someone to build a datawarehouse from scratch. that would make me no better than some of the recent topics from people who think they can lie their way into a dba role.I dont deny that you have to keep uptodate but as I posted before, it is an individual choice how they choose to update themselves and the costs and benefits associated with that.Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:13:55 GMTSilverfoxhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxAbsolutely without question yes. As a consultant it's even more important than for a full time employee. When you're consulting, up to date, deep knowledge = work. If there's stuff you don't know then that's potential work that you're losing out on.Whether the knowledge is acquired by formal courses, books, conferences or just playing around depends, but the keeping up to date is not optional. I pay for my own training, have for quite some years. When I worked for the bank I still bought my own books, bank paid for others and for exams. Now I pay for books, conferences and any other training material I need.I'm doing my M.Sc, but that's not for work, that's because I want to study formally further than undergrad.Fri, 09 Oct 2009 09:00:14 GMTGilaMonsterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxblandry, I wonder about recycling those products (not specifically because of your post, but good lead-in). Some I know are too outdated to do users any good in communicating with the rest of the world (meaning the technologies and maybe the books) but surely some part of the globe could use the cables/etc? Even if they're slow/old but still function, wouldn't donating them to a developing nation help to get the rest of the world online faster, and reduce landfill?Been wondering about how to take advantage of this at work with old hardware, i.e. donating to providers to help with electronic medical records/claim submission, or donating to low-income members to help get access to medical services online, so interested in your (or anyone's) thoughts on the matter.[b]*Edit - realized I was hijacking Steve's thread, apologies Steve. Any respondants to my ramblings, please post in a new thread I started [url=http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Forum61-1.aspx?Update=1]here[/url]. [i][/i][/b]Thanks,JonFri, 09 Oct 2009 08:42:32 GMTjcrawf02http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxHmmm, invest in my career? How about getting a rebate on the prior investments in my career?About five months ago I finally started cleaning out my basement of all the computer "stuff" I have gathered over the years. I had boxes and crates of manuals, books, PC boards, cables, awards and citations from classes I have taken through 30 years in the business - and ALL of it was outdated, discontinued, old and well useless. It took four station wagon loads to get it all to the dump and out of my life.Why was I saving old DOS, CPM, PICK, and Mac manuals? Why did I have about 10 2400 baud modems? What was I thinking keeping over 20 10Mbit network cards? And cables? I had about 300 miles of long since discontinued printer and network cables... And this is just some of the now-useless stuff I got rid of.Members of my staff come to me and ask me to sign-off on purchases of these biblical-size manuals coming out of Microsoft Press, Wrox, and others - I always okay the purchases - but after my recent purge I have started to have second thoughts. We all buy these expensive books with hundreds of pages and they are outdated usually within a year or two. All of us have probably attended at least one (if not many more) classes for systems and applications that have long since vanished.There has to be a better way. I am all for investing in a career - but in high tech, due to the rapid changes, I think there should be some sort of rebate late in one's career. You turn in all your useless books, hardware and what-nots - and you get a few dollars back per pound toward your entrance fee to the Techie Rest Home.Fri, 09 Oct 2009 08:35:26 GMTblandryhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic800475-263-1.aspxI think it's mandatory to invest in your career. As a consultant I don't have the privilege of paid classes. The old school way was to purchase a 50$ 650 page monster training guide. Read the behemoth in your spare time and then take a certification exam; 100$. Possibly purchase a Transender exam if the material was new; another 100$. I personally like the Microsoft exams as they tend to keep me focused on a hard goal. (I'm just one of those people that need a hard goal.)Today we have the magic of online YouTube videos. Kick back, relax and watch an instructor walk you thru a demonstration. Although I still purchase the books. It's a seriously competitive job market out there, your going to need every advantage that you can afford yourself. I've seen too many good programers work for 30 years in the field just to get walked out the door and left in the dust. (It's no country for 65 year old COBOL programmers.) helpful video sharing site for SQL --> http://www.sqlshare.com/Fri, 09 Oct 2009 08:08:43 GMTAppleMouth