InstantForum.NET v4.1.4SQLServerCentralhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/notifications@sqlservercentral.comMon, 22 Mar 2010 00:42:17 GMT20http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote]I like to see the question up front and the explanation about the question second. [/quote]Grant: I like this too. I don't know that most posters are sophisticated enough to think about this, but it is another tip that could be added for people learning to post.[quote]I'll scroll through a long post if it is coherent and has some white space.[/quote]Jack: Cool. That's more patience than I have.[quote]Split text of the post itself in two parts.[/quote]peter: I've started doing this myself in other contexts. I also believe it helps and is another tip that could be shared. But this one is dangerous to share with people I think because it could cause people to post a lot of little posts unnecessarily.Thanks all for weighing in. I was curious what you would say.Tue, 14 Apr 2009 08:40:10 GMTJJ Bhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxYou can problably psychologically trick a potential reader into feeling the post is short.There are two ways.[b]Add the test code and the solutions you already tried as sql scripts[/b]This doesnt take much place and it also allows you to add some detailed comments there without blowing a reader off in your main post.[b]Split tekst of the post itself in two parts[/b]Describe in the first post the problem, end with a note that details follow in following posts. Have these following posts ready as you want people to read them as one if they are interested in it.This first post if recognised by someone as something he or she knows a lot about serves just that. Catch their attention and also invoke anyone with a similar problem. Once that happends, reading more is not an issue as it is part of solving the problem.Tue, 14 Apr 2009 02:20:37 GMTpeter-757102http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxJJ,The length of a post is not why I would skip one. It is the coherence and readability of a post that matters to me. I'll scroll through a long post if it is coherent and has some white space. If I have scroll through a hundred lines of code that is not in a code block, contains no white space, and no other formatting, I'll skip it and move on to the next question.Tue, 14 Apr 2009 02:15:10 GMTJack Corbetthttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxHere is the link [url][b]http://www.sqlservercentral.com/blogs/lynnpettis/archive/2009/04/05/dealing-with-difficult-forum-users-the-flip-side.aspx#comments[/b][/url].Mon, 13 Apr 2009 21:58:44 GMTLynn Pettishttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Lynn Pettis (4/13/2009)[/b][hr]In my blog, th flip side, I mention that the post should be concise yet detaled. Sort of an oxymoron, but it works.. The code should be well formatted with appropriate white space. The sample data readily consumbable without reformatting. The sample data easily comparable to the output.You only need enough of an explaination so that people can understand the problem. They don't need all the details of the system, nor necessarily all the data from the tables, either in rows or columns. Just what is needed to understand and assist in solving the problem.[/quote]Sorry I missed it... what's the link for that, Lynn?Mon, 13 Apr 2009 21:31:21 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxI'd have to say it falls into it depends. I don't mind reading a bit, but sometimes people post several hundred lines of code and, quite frankly, I don't want to have to plow through page after page of poorly written code. Especially when, after wondering for a while and posting a series of suggestions, you get a response that says they can't rewrite anything, they just want it to run faster... That's clearly not you, but you can see where really long posts might push people away after a while.It just depends on the query, how the question is posed. Personally, I like to see the question up front and the explanation about the question second. That way I can decide if I want to read everything rather than skip it because it looks long. But then, I'm lazy and not nearly a saint like Lynn.Mon, 13 Apr 2009 21:01:27 GMTGrant Fritcheyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxIn my blog, th flip side, I mention that the post should be concise yet detaled. Sort of an oxymoron, but it works.. The code should be well formatted with appropriate white space. The sample data readily consumbable without reformatting. The sample data easily comparable to the output.You only need enough of an explaination so that people can understand the problem. They don't need all the details of the system, nor necessarily all the data from the tables, either in rows or columns. Just what is needed to understand and assist in solving the problem.Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:46:38 GMTLynn Pettishttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxYour reply makes perfect sense. I still wonder if a human element isn't involved. It seems to me that a shorter post might draw someone in enough to be curious and interested enough to ask further questions. A longer post might turn someone off from even trying to answer or reading the full problem statement even though the longer post contains all the necessary information. I think that most humans don't want to read a lot of text. It is why publishers talk a lot about white space. But I could be wrong about the people here.I was just curious if anyone had thought about length of posts and their real reactions to them. Kind of along the lines of: be careful what you ask for.Thanks for your reply.Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:40:16 GMTJJ Bhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxHere is my take. When you look at your post, could someone with no knowledge of the problem domain understand the problem you are presenting. If so, then you have provided enough information. Does that help?Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:32:36 GMTLynn Pettishttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxI don't post questions often. I find that if I do the research, I can usually solve the problem. This is just to say that I do not have a lot of experience posting questions and getting answers, or visa versa.Here is a question for the people who tend to have the answers: It would be my preference and inclination to post a question that has all those details that you say you are looking for. I also spend a lot of time trying to write clear descriptions and discuss solutions tried already. The problem is that this kind of post would probably end up being pretty long--especially because if I get to the point that I actually have to post a question, (I'm near to tears and) we are probably not talking about a simple issue. I've been told by people that they do not like to read my posts because the text is too long. So, my worry would be that if I included all the background details, no one would read my post. Do you ever skip the long ones just because they are long? Would a shorter post with less background details be preferable in some cases? (The whole "it depends" kind of thing.) It kind of seems like a dumb question given this entire discussion. However, I wonder if the best way to get a response is somewhere in the middle. Remember, I don't have a lot of experience with question posts. Maybe you really do mean it that you want all that detail. I'm curious to hear what people have to say for future reference. Thanks. - JJMon, 13 Apr 2009 15:03:02 GMTJJ Bhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Surf Bum (4/8/2009)[/b]Personally, I'm glad that you put that yahoo in his place Steve.[/quote]I'm not sure I did much. Lynn did a good job of turning things around.I can understand just wanting an answer. If you post on a photography site (or some site where you're an amateur) at some point, if you've tried and shown that you have thought about it, you might just want an answer. And it's probably appropriate to give one if the person has made an effort, and is stuck. You can probably still teach them, but along with the answer.Sat, 11 Apr 2009 16:35:44 GMTSteve Jones - Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Lynn Pettis (4/7/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]Jeff Moden (4/7/2009)[/b][hr]Only they don't get to come back after calming down.[/quote]BWA-HAA!!! That's not a fault... that's a feature. :-PSat, 11 Apr 2009 12:20:27 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxI think that the standard rule of thumb one should use when seeking somone's assistance is that a "reasonable" attempt should be made to troubleshoot and resolve an issue before requesting assistance. I've always attempted to learn as much as possible about an issue before seeking the assistance of someone else. One should also include as much supporting information as possible when describing the problem.What I really hate is the proverbial responses that are limited to "it didn't work, now what?". To me that is a clear indication that the person requesting assistance is not sincere in learning to resolve their own issue, but merely wants someone else to slave out the solution and deliver it on a silver platter. If someone doesn't have the time display the proper etiquette when requesting my assistance, then why should I waste my time in assisting them?Personally, I'm glad that you put that yahoo in his place Steve.Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:20:48 GMTMad Hackerhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Jeff Moden (4/7/2009)[/b][hr]Heh... the way I diffuse it at work is I tell the offender to go to his/her "corner" and come back when they calm down. Hasn't failed yet. It's kinda like you throwing someone off the field for using foul language in front of the kids.[/quote]Only they don't get to come back after calming down. They are gone for the duration of the game. Longer if the club/CHSAA get involved and deem it appropriate to ban the offender from future games.Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:20:38 GMTLynn Pettishttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxHeh... the way I diffuse it at work is I tell the offender to go to his/her "corner" and come back when they calm down. Hasn't failed yet. It's kinda like you throwing someone off the field for using foul language in front of the kids.Tue, 07 Apr 2009 09:27:26 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Jeff Moden (4/7/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]Jeff Moden (4/6/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]Lynn Pettis (4/5/2009)[/b][hr]Well said, both the editorial and the pod cast. From that, I really think that my blog posts are particularly relevant. For those who haven't read them, you can find them [url=http://www.sqlservercentral.com/blogs/lynnpettis/archive/2009/03/25/how-to-deal-with-the-difficult-forum-user.aspx][b]here[/b][/url] and [url=http://www.sqlservercentral.com/blogs/lynnpettis/archive/2009/04/05/dealing-with-difficult-forum-users-the-flip-side.aspx][b]here[/b][/url].I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. I'm especially interested to see what others think.[/quote]I quit reading when I got to here on your blog...[quote]The first is to treat the individual with respect. Do this even if they are not showing you that same respect in return. It isn't easy, but it shows strength of character, and eventually the individual may see that and begin to show more respect in return.[/quote]I'll not turn the other cheek for anyone who comes storming onto the forum in a rude manner. I don't tolerate it in person and I don't have to take it from a forum user. The only "respect" I'll give such a user is not launching a full volley of high velocity pork chops and abandon the post. There are good people that need help. I'll not spend so much time on those who do not respect those that try to help.[/quote][/quote]I'll respect your choice Jeff, but that is what I try to teach my children as well, even when it comes to them dealing with each other. It is also how I have learned to diffuse situations in business and on the soccer pitch. It works, and in the end, if the other person continues to act in an "unexceptable" manner, they are the ones that look bad, not me. It's also why my wife lets me deal with things regarding insurance, car repairs, etc. She is the "explosive" one and I am the diplomat of the family.Tue, 07 Apr 2009 08:01:52 GMTLynn Pettishttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Jeff Moden (4/6/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]RBarryYoung (4/6/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]majorbloodnock (4/6/2009)[/b][hr]Well, I expect you'll get a lot more posts to this thread agreeing with your article, albeit (frustratingly) all from people who wouldn't commit that cardinal sin in the first place. The converted will stay converted and the unbelievers will continue in their rude and arrogant rut. Nonetheless, I still think you were right to say what you've said. Unless there's a line publicly drawn, a minority will assume that anything must, therefore, be acceptable. However, what I think is irrelevant is the fact that almost everyone on SSC gives their time and knowledge for free. Even if they were paid for their input, I don't believe the distasteful postings would become any the less unacceptable. Whilst I appreciate the very democratic feel of the forums here, I don't feel direct enforcement of the terms and conditions is in the slightest heavy handed, and I hope you don't feel the need to justify yourself to us when you have to do it.[/quote]Well said. [i]Very[/i] well said, actually.[/quote]I agree... very well said.[/quote]Um, thanks, guys; I'm flattered. :blush:Tue, 07 Apr 2009 06:57:25 GMTmajorbloodnockhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxSteve,Great rant! Couldn't agree more, it's nice to be nice!MarkTue, 07 Apr 2009 06:41:15 GMTSuperDBA-207096http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Jeff Moden (4/6/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]Lynn Pettis (4/5/2009)[/b][hr]Well said, both the editorial and the pod cast. From that, I really think that my blog posts are particularly relevant. For those who haven't read them, you can find them [url=http://www.sqlservercentral.com/blogs/lynnpettis/archive/2009/03/25/how-to-deal-with-the-difficult-forum-user.aspx][b]here[/b][/url] and [url=http://www.sqlservercentral.com/blogs/lynnpettis/archive/2009/04/05/dealing-with-difficult-forum-users-the-flip-side.aspx][b]here[/b][/url].I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. I'm especially interested to see what others think.[/quote]I quit reading when I got to here on your blog...[quote]The first is to treat the individual with respect. Do this even if they are not showing you that same respect in return. It isn't easy, but it shows strength of character, and eventually the individual may see that and begin to show more respect in return.[/quote]I'll not turn the other cheek for anyone who comes storming onto the forum in a rude manner. I don't tolerate it in person and I don't have to take it from a forum user. The only "respect" I'll give such a user is not launching a full volley of high velocity pork chops and abandon the post. There are good people that need help. I'll not spend so much time on those who do not respect those that try to help.[/quote]Tue, 07 Apr 2009 00:03:45 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]RBarryYoung (4/6/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]majorbloodnock (4/6/2009)[/b][hr]Well, I expect you'll get a lot more posts to this thread agreeing with your article, albeit (frustratingly) all from people who wouldn't commit that cardinal sin in the first place. The converted will stay converted and the unbelievers will continue in their rude and arrogant rut. Nonetheless, I still think you were right to say what you've said. Unless there's a line publicly drawn, a minority will assume that anything must, therefore, be acceptable. However, what I think is irrelevant is the fact that almost everyone on SSC gives their time and knowledge for free. Even if they were paid for their input, I don't believe the distasteful postings would become any the less unacceptable. Whilst I appreciate the very democratic feel of the forums here, I don't feel direct enforcement of the terms and conditions is in the slightest heavy handed, and I hope you don't feel the need to justify yourself to us when you have to do it.[/quote]Well said. [i]Very[/i] well said, actually.[/quote]I agree... very well said.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 23:53:56 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Lynn Pettis (4/5/2009)[/b][hr]Well said, both the editorial and the pod cast. From that, I really think that my blog posts are particularly relevant. For those who haven't read them, you can find them [url=http://www.sqlservercentral.com/blogs/lynnpettis/archive/2009/03/25/how-to-deal-with-the-difficult-forum-user.aspx][b]here[/b][/url] and [url=http://www.sqlservercentral.com/blogs/lynnpettis/archive/2009/04/05/dealing-with-difficult-forum-users-the-flip-side.aspx][b]here[/b][/url].I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. I'm especially interested to see what others think.[/quote]I quit reading when I got to here on your blog...[quote]The first is to treat the individual with respect. Do this even if they are not showing you that same respect in return. It isn't easy, but it shows strength of character, and eventually the individual may see that and begin to show more respect in return.[/quote]I'll not turn the other cheek for anyone who comes storming onto the forum in a rude manner. I don't tolerate it in person and I don't have to take it from a forum user.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 23:42:04 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Steve Jones - Editor (4/6/2009)[/b][hr]Nice list, Meredith. Feel free to use the "report button" to let me know about misposted items. Also dups, I tend to close them out if I see them.[/quote]Duh, I may start using it on the posts in the wrong forums. There are so many dupes I wouldn't want to saturate your day with them all.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:01:08 GMTJack Corbetthttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxNice list, Meredith. Feel free to use the "report button" to let me know about misposted items. Also dups, I tend to close them out if I see them.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:42:54 GMTSteve Jones - Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx...and I also thought I should add my two cents' worth.When I started programming, I was fortunate to be working with some people who really knew their stuff. They weren't very good at passing it on, though, so I had to learn a few things. I still think they're good principles for any newbie field - I still use it whenever I move into a new field or want to branch into a new skill set.1. Don't start out thinking you have something to prove.2. Keep a magic book handy, and write all your tips and the clever things you've learnt in it.3. Ask once fearlessly. Ask twice hesitantly. Ask three times apologetically - you should have written it down in your magic book by now!4. There's no reason not to ask the stupid question - you may not be the only one wondering, and at the very least it may clear up the assumptions around the table.5. Grammar and syntax is important in your programming. Why would you think it's not important in your posts and emails?On the other side of the fence, I have found these principles are useful in dealing with the possibly brain-dead, but more likely confused:1. Don't start out thinking you have something to prove.2. Ask for the basic problem parameters once politely, twice insistently. Don't ask a third time.3. Give examples if they can't seem to articulate their problem.4. If they're rude or aggressive, just politely tell them you can't help unless they give you enough information. If they have given you the information but you don't feel like doing them a favour with that attitude, bombard them with every exception or contributing complication you can think of, in hopes that they might FINALLY realise that cook books don't teach you how to cook, just how to follow recipes.5. If they're posting to the wrong forum, then even if you know the answer, don't - tell them to ask in the right place.I think that if you don't want to learn, you shouldn't be in IT.I also think that there's so much confusion these days between public and private space - witness iPods with leaky headphones, and breakup calls on mobiles, on PUBLIC TRANSPORT!!! - that we shouldn't be surprised people don't respect others' head space online either.And I also loved the Google hint - very clever.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:29:51 GMTmeredith.darthttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxThat New Scientist forum was really interesting! Thanks for posting it!Mon, 06 Apr 2009 16:04:41 GMTmeredith.darthttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxI don't comment a lot on forums, I used to about 8-9 years ago, but just stopped because I found that I spent more time explaining things to people who didn't bother doing basic research than I did to people who has interesting issues. My brother is one the Senior Moderators over at GameDev and we where just talking about this subject this morning; after he had someone blowup on him, because he felt he was being ignored. For him this is a pretty common issue and he gets a sadistic chuckle while playing with these idiots. I just find it easier to be anonymous. I feel really bad that I read forums all the time, but never say anything and it is something that I added as a new year's resolution. However, like most resolutions, I haven't accomplished much towards it.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 15:28:46 GMTMattKenthttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxThe reason not to provide the entie solution is that each situation is different and the person who asks the question can not really capture all aspects of their environment /settings in his question. Because if he could, he would not be asking questions for the first place.So we can only suggest solutions. As for how much to explain, I start with the links or high-level answer and if the person gets back to me I ask for his / her level of expertise on the subject. Sometimes it does not take much time to explain details but it makes a lot of difference for a newbie. Who will probably read on the subject anyway.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 15:11:02 GMTYelena Varshalhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]foursaints (4/6/2009)[/b][hr]Steve - I know this thread will get a lot of mileage, but my goodness I hope you read my post here:While I'm at it I'd like to throw in a big salute to all the seasoned veterans who regularly contribute posts and content at SQLServerCentral.com. You know who you are!!-Bob St. Aubyn[/quote]Thanks, Bob, and I'm sure I speak for everyone that's posted an answer as well.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 12:10:28 GMTSteve Jones - Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][u][b]...Take heart in knowing that I, like many, many others consider this site and its forums to be an invaluable resource, have used it for years now, and truly appreciate your efforts and the quality of content we find here. I find it particularly impressive that this site is one of the default search sites used by BOL when the online content is enabled.I personally think that mentorship is one of the best things you can do with knowledge gained, and you're doing a great job of it. Keep up the good work!... -Bob St. Aubyn[/quote]I so agree. I find this site not only great for its content, but also the moral(e) support of it's contributors. I only wish I could be more of a contributor. Thank you All.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 11:43:38 GMTEd Salvahttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxI'll echo what some of the others have said: when I point someone to Jeff's article, it is almost always because I do not think that I can answer their question without it. And usually that is because I cannot understand what they are trying to ask.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 11:32:34 GMTRBarryYounghttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Andy Warren (4/6/2009)[/b][hr]Steve, on a side note, it would be really interesting to see if you can't find a way to identify/flag what those posts/posters might have in common. Are they all first time posters? All from the same geographic area? Poor grammar? Probably more subtle.[/quote]I'm not sure there's a pattern other than a personality issue for many. Even those that post what we might consider inappropriate in the US can respond in different ways. I see people from other cultures respond with an apology or a request for clarification. And I see some become belligerent or rude.I'd like to say it's an age thing, but I'm not sure. I think it's a human thing.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 11:28:19 GMTSteve Jones - Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Andy Warren (4/6/2009)[/b][hr]Food for thought on those answering posts - one of my sayings is that "you have to be in the right place in life to lesson some lessons", and after you've learned your own, it's often hard to be patient with those that havent.[/quote]Excellent point. It is hard sometimes to remember what you thought when you started.I've actually had to post recently as a "newbie" on a few other forums for audio/video questions. I used that as a basis to decide if I was being too sensitive here. I didn't expect someone to provide me free consulting. I was expecting that I'd have to work a bit to learn something, I just wanted advice/direction on how to proceed.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 11:16:57 GMTSteve Jones - Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]majorbloodnock (4/6/2009)[/b][hr]Well, I expect you'll get a lot more posts to this thread agreeing with your article, albeit (frustratingly) all from people who wouldn't commit that cardinal sin in the first place. The converted will stay converted and the unbelievers will continue in their rude and arrogant rut. Nonetheless, I still think you were right to say what you've said. Unless there's a line publicly drawn, a minority will assume that anything must, therefore, be acceptable. However, what I think is irrelevant is the fact that almost everyone on SSC gives their time and knowledge for free. Even if they were paid for their input, I don't believe the distasteful postings would become any the less unacceptable. Whilst I appreciate the very democratic feel of the forums here, I don't feel direct enforcement of the terms and conditions is in the slightest heavy handed, and I hope you don't feel the need to justify yourself to us when you have to do it.[/quote]Well said. [i]Very[/i] well said, actually.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 10:40:08 GMTRBarryYounghttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxSteve - I know this thread will get a lot of mileage, but my goodness I hope you read my post here:[u][b]YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY IN THE RIGHT TO WRITE THAT EDITORIAL!!![/b][/u] I have personally seen and been appauled by posters who essentially say, "just give me the answer - and don't bother me with all the questions and explanation". They want a code snippet to cut and paste into their project to solve their problem and move on. They don't want to understand the solution, they just want a black box that they can plug in and make the problem go away.Your efforts to "teach the fisherman to fish" is, and always will be the right way to do this. I can only hope that you aren't deterred by the few who act like children and become impatient with your questions and detail. I guess when you are dealing with a SQL community and a public forum that can be searched and accessed by literally millions your chances of finding a few juveniles is pretty good! ;-)Take heart in knowing that I, like many, many others consider this site and its forums to be an invaluable resource, have used it for years now, and truly appreciate your efforts and the quality of content we find here. I find it particularly impressive that this site is one of the default search sites used by BOL when the online content is enabled.I personally think that mentorship is one of the best things you can do with knowledge gained, and you're doing a great job of it. Keep up the good work!While I'm at it I'd like to throw in a big salute to all the seasoned veterans who regularly contribute posts and content at SQLServerCentral.com. You know who you are!!-Bob St. AubynMon, 06 Apr 2009 10:34:09 GMTBobSainthttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Jack Corbett (4/6/2009)[/b][hr][quote][b]webrunner (4/6/2009)[/b][hr](snip)So, my basic proposal is to (1) have a clear, short list of rules to follow that is (2) presented to the user before they can even write a comment, so they can't claim ignorance or claim that they were rushing due to an emergency.I'm sure this is not a perfect solution, not least of which because it asks the people who run the site, and the users who offend the least, to put work into changing the system for those who offend the most. But it is possible that the payoff will be better threads, and possibly the self-selecting out of those who decide for whatever reason that they don't want to be part of SSC.Just my two cents,webrunner[/quote]This has been suggested in the past as well, and could be a good idea, but, and I could be wrong, I think one of the goals of SSC is to make it easy to be member and still get quality answers.[/quote]Thanks! Yes, I can see that the barrier to entry must not be too high. That's why I think a short version of the etiquette, reviewed before joining, might help. It can't be longer than a few lines, but having something there to remind them of the importance of etiquette may impress upon them that etiquette is not an afterthought and may actually help them solve their problem (in addition to making them a better person...).It's certainly something that I think is worth piloting if it is getting to the point (SSC is rapidly growing, last I heard) where the anonymity factor tips the site over and too many people feel they can post rude or impatient requests. If it gets out of hand, some kind of moderation system may be needed, though the overhead for that workflow would be enormous. I just would hate to see SSC devolve into the kind of stuff that sometimes happens in Google groups.Best,webrunnerMon, 06 Apr 2009 09:37:25 GMTwebrunnerhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]webrunner (4/6/2009)[/b][hr]1. Come up with an easily digested "short version" of the etiquette rules - the purpose is not to water down the etiquette or repeat pages such as [url=http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/][u]Jeff Moden's great article on posting format[/u][/url], but to have an easy-to-understand version of the etiquette that no one will be able to claim was too long for them to read. And make clear to them that following etiquette is in their best interest if they expect help when they need it. The basic rules are probably not that long and can be stated in a few lines.2. When a person signs up, emphasize posting etiquette, and don't let them complete sign-up without going through that "short version" page, with a link to the full version. There's a chance that some people won't read it at all (as is done with "Click to Agree" forms in software installations), but at least you have directed users to the etiquette at the start, and no user will be able to say that they had not seen it. In many cases, you will catch the users while they are still relatively calm instead of when they have an emergency to solve and are less likely to use proper etiquette.So, my basic proposal is to (1) have a clear, short list of rules to follow that is (2) presented to the user before they can even write a comment, so they can't claim ignorance or claim that they were rushing due to an emergency.I'm sure this is not a perfect solution, not least of which because it asks the people who run the site, and the users who offend the least, to put work into changing the system for those who offend the most. But it is possible that the payoff will be better threads, and possibly the self-selecting out of those who decide for whatever reason that they don't want to be part of SSC.Just my two cents,webrunner[/quote]This has been suggested in the past as well, and could be a good idea, but, and I could be wrong, I think one of the goals of SSC is to make it easy to be member and still get quality answers.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 09:15:35 GMTJack Corbetthttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxLynn Pettis briefly noted something about solving the issue while writing about it and I like to follow up on that :)It is a well known fact that when you need to articulate a problem, you better learn to understand it and in doing so solve it. It provides clarity and taps into more brain power then you would otherwise allocate to it. Maybe more important, it helps to cut out incoherent design issues before you start implementing anything. It is after all impossibly hard to describe something incoherent or structureless.For this very reason it is good to just talk to someone at work and explain what you try to solve even before you run for the forums. The other person does not even have to grasp what you do. In fact it somtimes is better if he doesn't as that forces you to focus on the essense and take a step back before progressing. You will often identify flaws in your own previous "assumtions" and see things more with an outside/objective perspective.Another method is to just write some documentation upfront explaining what exactly the process you are implementing will do and how it should work in detail. This doesnt have to be final documentation or even live beyond the scope of the development process. Don't waste time on spelling, this is just a tool to help you focus.Do give the process some time as writing something down is never right the first few iterations is my experience. This process works often enough to be a valuable tool in its own right. And if it does not for you like it does for me then you have a great start for a good forum post, to tap into that massive amount of external brain power and experience there.This makes forming a good description upfront never a waste of spend time :)Mon, 06 Apr 2009 09:11:28 GMTpeter-757102http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxI agree that manners are important.Yes, I am guilty of often not providing an answer, but asking for more information, many times pointing to links in my signature line (Jeff's excellent article is one). Normally when I do this it is because I don't understand the problem. Posting DDL, Test Data, and expected results helps bridge any language gaps so I can understand.There are also times, this [url=http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic691038-1291-1.aspx]thread[/url] for example, when I provide an answer that I don't think really answers the problem, and also request more information. I regularly provide links for answers because I googled the problem and found the answer. Why re-write it?I also have taken the time to write blog posts or articles, like Gail or Jeff, to address commonly seen problems and then reference the blog post or article. It's like code re-use. Why write the same thing over and over when I can link to it?I'll jump out of thread whenever it gets personal. You don't have to agree with a solution I provide, but don't get personal. If it happens more than once then I put that user on my blacklist and ignore those posts. I don't like to do it, but if you can't be nice when you are asking for help then I won't provide it, usually others will.I try to be polite whenever I answer a question and I think I should be called out when I get out of line.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 09:11:26 GMTJack Corbetthttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Chris Harshman (4/6/2009)[/b][hr]I think the whole manners issue on online forums is related to the de-humanizing aspect of the internet. People are willing to type things online that they probably would think twice or three times about before saying it to someone's face. Maybe it's because there are fewwer reprecussions posting it online.The problems I've seen on SQLServerCentral forums do go both directions though. Yes there are alot of people who don't know how to ask the proper question, or how to ask it in a way that the people trying to answer the question would like it to be asked. But there are also a number of things that some of the "elites" here do that don't help, including the constant replies that questions need to be formatted in a specific way, even when it isn't always necessary.There are many people that look to the forumns on this site who either are application developers who have been forced by their companies to do database work even though that isn't their primary knowledge area, or are database developers who have been forced by their company to do DBA work even though that isn't their primary knowledge area.I used to contribute to the forumns here, trying to help people where I could, but after being criticized multiple times for the way I help people, or for not forcing them to ask the question in the proper format, I've stopped. To me, the rudeness of some of the "elites" here is only slightly better than that of some of the Linux bigots who say things like "RTFM noob!"[/quote]Yes, we do seem to ask OP's to format problems in a certain way, and your correct that sometimes a problem can't be formatted in that way. Several problems I have asked for help didn't fit the "standard format". Most of the questions where this is asked require the same things, DDL for the tables, sample data to populate the data, expected results based on the sample data, and what they have tried so far to solve the problem.Personally, the more work that an OP does up front to help us help them, the more effort I'll put into helping solve the problem. I have spent considerable effort at times reformatting code so I could understand it better, creating tables from rough descriptions of the data, and taking poorly presented data and putting it into a format that I could then use. But why should I, or anyone else, have to do that to help someone. I truely believe that if someone takes the time to properly present a problem, following the examples set in Jeff Moden's article for instance, that they will get better answers to thier questions. I have even seen a few OP's solve thier own problem just going through the exercise of getting everything together as asked.We are here to help, but we could use help in helping. Sound confusing? It isn't. The more information provided, the more detail regarding a question or problem, the better the answer in return.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 08:47:08 GMTLynn Pettishttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic690713-263-1.aspxI try to set a relatively low threshold for what I expect from a question before I'll try to answer it. Or, to put it another way, I try to set a very high standard for myself for understanding what was asked. At the same time, there's a big difference between a poorly researched, poorly written forum post, and one that's deliberately rude.There are times, however, when I simply cannot understand what's being asked. At that point, I'll ask for clarification.Mon, 06 Apr 2009 08:31:42 GMTGSquared