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RE: DBA Value

george sibbald — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:02:53 GMT

Jonathan, maybe I did take it out of context but IMHO its too simplistic to take giving advice on coding as the final arbiter of a good dba. The worlds not that clear cut and simple. as Gail said SQL server is a very wide subject and you can add value in many ways. There are plenty of jobs out there where coding is not high on the list of requirements, they have a separate development team who's responsibility that is.In my current job, the DBA and dev roles are clearly defined and separated, especially as dev is now outsourced., so there's all sorts of contractual issues. I like to keep my skills rounded for my own satisfaction so I highlight poorly performed code when I find it (and I do look for it) and give suggestions where I can.I would be justifiably insulted by any developer who had the temerity to insult my competence as a DBA simply because I had not been able to offer assistance on a particular coding issue , after all coding is the reason they were hired, and I am expected to do so many other things!Anyway I'm going home now (2 hours late) to delete 3 million rows out of an application table added incorrectly due to an application error. I shall do this without impacting users and under the threat of severe repercussions if anything goes wrong. And I will have 3 different ways of backing it out. Thats why I get paid more.

RE: DBA Value

david.tyler — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:58:16 GMT

I agree with you Steve. I should clarify my last statement. I know there are many developers and DBA's out there that think they should have the high salary just because they have the title. It is possible to be good at several tasks but a specialist in one area can be near great. I feel it is impossible to reach great because there is always more to learn. It really comes down to the company. I could be near great as a database developer but if programmers write inline data access how valuable am I really to the company?

RE: DBA Value

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:43:43 GMT

Diverse skills if there is talent can get a higher salary. Jacks of all trades, masters of none is what so many average people have, and that's normal. That's not worth a higher salary.Specialists often have high salaries, but at the expense of less choice of jobs.

RE: DBA Value

david.tyler — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:35:04 GMT

I see more of a need for true DBA's in the larger organization where several database servers exist. These DBA's typically take on more of a system administrator role than developer (monitoring hardware, disk space/health, CPU/memory utilization, etc...). In the small to mid sized company, I see more of a need for the DBA/Database Developer. I came from the programming world and worked my way into database development and database administration. There is so much development happening on the database side especially since SQL 2005 that is outside of a typical programmers realm (SSIS, SSRS, SSAS). In this day and age, there is an advantage to a diverse skill set. Diverse skill sets generally justify a higher salary.

RE: DBA Value

Jonathan Kehayias — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:36:06 GMT

[quote][b]dphillips (11/12/2008)[/b][hr]I agree totally. Having a DEV who is primarily a DEV but act as DBA is where I have seen problems. I have yet to see a DBA who aids in DEV (and in fact often does some DEV whether by SPs, SSIS, or data access code) to be a problem anywhere, unless it becomes so much so that they do more DEV than DBA.A DBA who does not get familiar with how the data both is and needs to be used, and assist to those ends, is not a great DBA.[/quote]From time to time, I pickup a light project that is on the Dev teams back burner, and has not real deadline, and code it. I try to work with one of the Developers though so that in the event of a problem with my code in production, there is another avenue of support, and I provide copious comments in my C# code in summary blocks that makes it self documenting in XML form, so they should be able to follow it anyway. Personally I like to sling code. I enjoy seeing the fruits of my labors take form as I work.

RE: DBA Value

Jonathan Kehayias — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:27:35 GMT

[quote][b]george sibbald (11/12/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]katedgrt (11/12/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Joe Johnson (11/11/2008)[/b][hr][i]" I have seen DBA's that cannot develop and they have no idea how to help people optimize their code to take the best advantage of the platform they administrate."[/i][/quote]This is the type of DBA that the appellation 'Don't Bother Asking' applies to.[/quote]can't you see the irony in this? You are having a pop at DBA's who cannot do YOUR job better than YOU can. You have a basic misunderstanding of the DBA role in many shops, If you want someone to help with your coding call them a senior developer or a development DBA, which is not the same thing as a production DBA. Remember the A stands for Administration.I can code to suit my requirements, I understand logical and physical design. I understand indexing strategies, I know good and bad practice, but I don't develop applications so I don't spend much time in VS and would expect developers to be better at coding than I am.I could go on about all the Admin things that keep me busy but lifes too short and it does not matter anyway because everyone has their own view on what a DBA should be and do.[/quote]I think that you took the comment being made out of context. I think that every DBA, including production ones, should be able to explain, and offer better methods of writing TSQL code to developers. Leave Visual Studio completely out of the picture here. The simple fact is that there are more [i]"DBA's"[/i] that don't know the first thing about TSQL beyond the minimum amount they had to figure out to do certain tasks, than there are that do. This doesn't make them a good DBA in my opinion as they have no real understanding of performance tuning since adding indexes will only get you so far, and then you have to change up how you are doing things. The DBA should be able to offer suggestions for how to make things work better.

RE: DBA Value

DPhillips-731960 — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:14:52 GMT

[quote][b]Jonathan Kehayias (11/12/2008)[/b][hr]I happen to work in an environment where I am just a DBA, and for a decently sized environment. However, having the dev background, I am quite competent in C# and VB.NET and that has played heavy in my success as a DBA, as well as in consulting work since I can switch hit to solve complex problems. It has also taught me to notice when things are better done in an application versus in the database. I sit in on development meetings with our .NET developers to know what they are doing, and to also offer ideas to them. I like to stay abreast of the changing technologies, and beyond that I a really am a total geek, so there are times that I know of a newer way to solve a problem that they haven't heard of or used yet.[/quote]I agree totally. Having a DEV who is primarily a DEV but act as DBA is where I have seen problems. I have yet to see a DBA who aids in DEV (and in fact often does some DEV whether by SPs, SSIS, or data access code) to be a problem anywhere, unless it becomes so much so that they do more DEV than DBA.A DBA who does not get familiar with how the data both is and needs to be used, and assist to those ends, is not a great DBA.

RE: DBA Value

george sibbald — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:06:05 GMT

[quote][b]katedgrt (11/12/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Joe Johnson (11/11/2008)[/b][hr][i]" I have seen DBA's that cannot develop and they have no idea how to help people optimize their code to take the best advantage of the platform they administrate."[/i][/quote]This is the type of DBA that the appellation 'Don't Bother Asking' applies to.[/quote]can't you see the irony in this? You are having a pop at DBA's who cannot do YOUR job better than YOU can. You have a basic misunderstanding of the DBA role in many shops, If you want someone to help with your coding call them a senior developer or a development DBA, which is not the same thing as a production DBA. Remember the A stands for Administration.I can code to suit my requirements, I understand logical and physical design. I understand indexing strategies, I know good and bad practice, but I don't develop applications so I don't spend much time in VS and would expect developers to be better at coding than I am.I could go on about all the Admin things that keep me busy but lifes too short and it does not matter anyway because everyone has their own view on what a DBA should be and do.

RE: DBA Value

Jonathan Kehayias — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:50:31 GMT

I happen to work in an environment where I am just a DBA, and for a decently sized environment. However, having the dev background, I am quite competent in C# and VB.NET and that has played heavy in my success as a DBA, as well as in consulting work since I can switch hit to solve complex problems. It has also taught me to notice when things are better done in an application versus in the database. I sit in on development meetings with our .NET developers to know what they are doing, and to also offer ideas to them. I like to stay abreast of the changing technologies, and beyond that I a really am a total geek, so there are times that I know of a newer way to solve a problem that they haven't heard of or used yet.

RE: DBA Value

DPhillips-731960 — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:17:44 GMT

[quote][b]GilaMonster (11/11/2008)[/b]The thing is, the fields are so wide now that I doubt it's possible for someone to know everything about SQL Server (from the DB engine, through Analysis services, Integration services and reporting services) let alone everything about SQL and two or three other areas.[/quote]I agree. Although, I am also a developer, and understand what many are saying here, to me it only shows that not many really understand the value of a DBA or what a [i]great[/i] DBA does.The saying goes, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."I have literally seen businesses crippled by the very core products that DEV without DBA produced... to the tune of 100's of millions in lost revenue or market potential over a span of less than 5 years.How much does a [i]great[/i] DBA cost? Even at 100K+/year, the benefits of a [i]great[/i] DBA far outweigh the cost of one. My experience is that someone who is primarily DEV and filling in a DBA is doing niether very well. For those water-wise out there, it is much akin to a "motor-sailor"... a boat that has both a significant motor and is a sail boat... it does both, yes, but it does neither very well. It will win NO contests in either category, and will take one where one wants to go only half as fast as something trained for the right purpose.True you may have DBA's that have a little down time, but those that have a lot of down-time are not doing the job to the best of ability or lack the knowledge or skills to so do.Do things work without a DBA? Sure... things run badly for a good long time... just like many of the vehicles I have owned. Some have cost me more than they were worth, and have saved me neither money nor time.

RE: DBA Value

katedgrt — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:39:29 GMT

[quote][b]Joe Johnson (11/11/2008)[/b][hr][i]" I have seen DBA's that cannot develop and they have no idea how to help people optimize their code to take the best advantage of the platform they administrate."[/i][/quote]This is the type of DBA that the appellation 'Don't Bother Asking' applies to.

RE: DBA Value

Michael Valentine Jones — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:31:47 GMT

I think the simple answer is supply and demand. It is easy enough to get someone who can click around in the tools and get stuff done without doing too much damage. It’s not so easy to find someone who can make sure that you can depend of having your servers up, secure, optimized, backed up, and ready to recover from a disaster. Throw in the ability to work with developers to show them how to optimize queries and design a database, and you have someone with real value. In my experience, full capability database administrators are in far shorter supply than developers with some admin experience. As with anything else, short supply and high demand drive the price up.

RE: DBA Value

GilaMonster — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:29:15 GMT

[quote][b]blandry (11/11/2008)[/b][hr]A DBA who does not know VS? That's a DBA? I oversee staff for four companies (part of our corporate org) and I have never hired any "DBA" who simply knows SQL Server. Our companies could not run, let alone stay in business with such staff. [/quote]Depends on the company and the IT setup. At the place I used to work there were 7 full time DBAs. Of them, I was the only one from a dev background and I didn't do anything other than SQL development while I was there. We admin'd 400 or so database servers, a mixture of SQL, Oracle and Sybase and there was always quite enough admin work to go around. From monitoring jobs, backups and performance (and the paperwork required for that) to upgrades, new installations, troubleshooting problems and optimising there was more work than hands to do it. The company also had a dev team of 10 or so C# and web developers.I'm not lost in VS, but I barely use it. If I open VS once a fortnight it's a lot, and that's mostly for SSIS and reporting services. I can develop, but my skills in that area are very rusty due to lack of use.[quote]Maybe my thinking is this way because I came up in computing from the late 70's when you had to know it "all", and I must admit I am shocked at times these days when I interview or talk to young people who "specialize" in something so narrow that I am left wondering what these people do with the rest of their employment time. [/quote]The thing is, the fields are so wide now that I doubt it's possible for someone to know everything about SQL Server (from the DB engine, through Analysis services, Integration services and reporting services) let alone everything about SQL and two or three other areas.

RE: DBA Value

David Reed-223505 — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:17:56 GMT

I've worked as a people manager for more than one executive who had a severe allergy to single-purpose employees (especially DBAs and data architects). Even when I knew that I was hiring Person X to be a DBA, s/he had to be a stealth DBA and be able to demonstrate more skills (at least in conversations with executive management) beyond DBA-ness. Career karma being what it is, it may be my turn @ the next job to be the data dude with other skills....

RE: DBA Value

Ian Massi — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:07:16 GMT

I think a good part of the premium that is applied to a DBA's salary versus a developer is that the DBA is also an insurance policy againt data loss. If a disaster strikes, you may call in some developers to help bring things online but the DBA is going to have to ensure all the data is in place.

RE: DBA Value

Chris Campbell-415954 — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 09:52:46 GMT

Years (and jobs) ago, an interoffice joke circulated that was a list of IT Terminology. The only one I remember from it was the definition of "DBA":"No one knows exactly what the DBA does but every company has to have one because they can't afford two."Nuff said?

RE: DBA Value

OCTom — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:56:50 GMT

I have never worked in an organization big enough where the DBA was only that. The DBA has had to to other things. The DBA is usually combined with the server admin. or programming roles; sometimes all three together. The problem with this approach is that no one can be expert in all of them so one role suffers. It's very difficult to place a monetary value on the DBA role in the small shop environment. The value comes in the performance, consistency, and quality of the database.

RE: DBA Value

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:44:05 GMT

Hey, I'm starting to resemble that remark. :w00t:

RE: DBA Value

Joe Johnson-482549 — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:37:53 GMT

[i]"I think this boils down (yet again) to the great unanswered question: What is a DBA? If that's a Database Administrator, well, how can you administrate a database without knowledge of the tools used to tap-in and utilize the very database you are supposed to be administrating?"[/i]I whole-heartedly agree. I have seen DBA's that cannot develop and they have no idea how to help people optimize their code to take the best advantage of the platform they administrate. I would rather have someone who is a little more well-rounded (not necessarily in their mid-section).Regards,Joe

RE: DBA Value

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:32:15 GMT

Blandry, I think it depends on what you're trying to achieve. I have development experience, but I'd be a low, intermediate developer at best in terms of coding skill and speed. However I understand how to put applications together and how to get data back they can use. I'm also a strong administrator from the Windows side. I'm comfortable working in an AD environment and understand networking. That's incredibly valuable for troubleshooting and has saved me (and the company) a few times.I'm not sure I think a DBA needs to be a great programmer. Unless you're asking them to check that code or watch out for CLR assemblies coming in.

RE: DBA Value

blandry — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 06:24:24 GMT

[i]"Visual Studio and development tools are different, and I know quite a few DBAs that are lost within those environments."[/i]A DBA who does not know VS? That's a DBA? I oversee staff for four companies (part of our corporate org) and I have never hired any "DBA" who simply knows SQL Server. Our companies could not run, let alone stay in business with such staff. To me, that is like a carpenter hiring a "hammer specialist". You build a house with a great deal more than just hammering nails - no matter how good you might be at hammer nails.Maybe my thinking is this way because I came up in computing from the late 70's when you had to know it "all", and I must admit I am shocked at times these days when I interview or talk to young people who "specialize" in something so narrow that I am left wondering what these people do with the rest of their employment time. I have yet to see a DBA who truly needs 40 hours a week to monitor and maintain SQL Databases and operations - but maybe I am missing something - maybe our companies just run well because I have very talented people.There are three DBAs that I oversee and I have incredible respect for each of them - they do a great job for us. But one of them is also one of the best VS/C#/VB.NET developers I have ever come across, and the other two are pretty good in the VS world as well.I think this boils down (yet again) to the great unanswered question: What is a DBA? If that's a Database Administrator, well, how can you administrate a database without knowledge of the tools used to tap-in and utilize the very database you are supposed to be administrating?Again, to me, that would be like hiring a general contractor to build you a house and then have the same guy pick up a hammer and ask "Hey, what is this thing?".

RE: DBA Value

Loner — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 06:01:30 GMT

Unfortunately most companies especially medium size companies do not think that way. They hire SQL developers and they are doing DBA duties which sometimes lead to disaster. However most companies just cannot afford to hire a full time DBA especially at this economic hard time. They want to hire someone that can do DBA work, SQL developers, .NET, C#......practically everything under the sun.:exclamation:

RE: DBA Value

majorbloodnock — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 03:21:45 GMT

I think there is a hierarchy of requirements that stem from what a company sees as its fundamental needs for IT. As an example, a CEO may decide one of the company's aims is to know its customers better, and will see a CRM application as a means to get there. The IT department will see the app needs a database underneath it, and that both app and database need servers to sit on, and then that the servers will need a network OS to support them, and a network over which to communicate.My experience has generally been that, whilst market forces fluctuate the cost of rare skills a little, the further someone's job is away from the company's fundamental stated need, the lower the level of remuneration. OK, it's a little simplistic, but a network, no matter how well designed, can never actually add value for the business; it can merely reduce costs. However, an application/database pair does have the ability to add value, so the company's much more ready to spend on people directly related to that pair. And if someone understands two or more of the necessary areas (e.g. a DBA who is also an acceptable programmer), the company will start spouting buzzwords like "synergy" and "integration", and will value that person all the more.In short, how important a person is to a business doesn't determine how much they're paid so much as how well the decision makers in that business recognise why that person's job is important. Visibility, not utility.

DBA Value

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:44:50 GMT

Comments posted to this topic are about the item [B]DBA Value[/B]