InstantForum.NET v2.9.0SQLServerCentralhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/notifications@sqlservercentral.comTue, 21 May 2013 23:15:44 GMT20http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxMicrosoft (the company) earned the hostility it continues to encounter from certain geeks the world over. Unfortunately, innocent people outside of the company who had nothing to do with Microsoft's illegal and aggressive business practices often unfairly get tarred with the same brush. The people I see on this forum appear to be working hard to help people with technical issues, not working for MS to push a particular product.People come here I believe because they already have MSSQL installed and running and need to make it work, not because they are trying to decide WHICH database platform to go with In most cases, our bosses made that decision for us a long time ago :) and we just have to make it work. MSSQL is a complicated product, and notwithstanding what MS and vendors and Gartner tell us (about how EASY MSSQL is to use), to use it well, efficiently and correctly is a intensive effort requiring a lot of study and help. Doubly so for us who learned all of our database skills on another product on different Operating systems.So cgnospam, the war with MS is and will continue, but the people you encounter here aren't the people responsible for waging it. I make no secret of my preference for Oracle or mySQL running on Linux, but when one of my customers brings me an MSSQL based solution, I will do my professional best to make it work to the very top level of efficiency. People on this forum, including the MVPs, are a great and helpful resource to that end. Don't shoot wide and hit them when you aim for Gates and Ballmer :DMon, 14 Jul 2008 08:33:54 GMTLoyd Gravitthttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxWell said Brian.and cognospam, if you haven't disparaged people with your first statement, I'm not sure I'd like to see it when you do.no one here claims MVPs are the experts because of the MVP. But many of them are experts that give their time to others.Sun, 13 Jul 2008 19:23:48 GMTSteve Jones - SSC Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]cgnospam (7/12/2008)[/b][hrYou *should* dismiss them first as marketing shills, because that is what they are by definition. It isn't like an MVP is a PH.D - it is a pseudo technical marketing designation that is arbitrarily awarded by Microsoft for the benefit of Microsoft. Microsoft likely created this designation for one reason, to appeal to insecure geeks who need group assurance. Even better if you can get knowledgeable experts involved so they can be coerced (via social pressure) to spew the M$ company line. [/quote]No, I shouldn't dismiss them first as marketing shills. From my personal experience with just about every MVP I've run across I've found the following:(a) They don't push Microsoft products out of some loyal obligation to a company they don't work for.(b) They have offered non-Microsoft solutions and run non-Microsoft technologies when those are more appropriate (Frank Kalis running Joomla! for http://www.insidesql.org/ is a good example).(c) They generally have good knowledge in the category for which they are an MVP for.(d) They are genuinely helpful to those who are in need of help.Do I assume every MVP has all the answers? No, because they don't, as Andy Leonard has already posted. But I also don't dismiss anyone as a marketing shill because I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I learned a long time ago that generalizations tend to be wrong more often than they're right. Therefore, I look at each person individually and make an assessment upon what they do and say. That's how I want people to treat me. To treat them any differently would be wrong. I apply that standard to everyone, MVP or not.Sun, 13 Jul 2008 19:08:20 GMTK. Brian Kelleyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxWell, cgnospam, [url=http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0003791/quotes]"Truly, you have a dizzying intellect."[/url]I doubt we're going to reach any kind of concensus and that's fine. Good luck!AndySun, 13 Jul 2008 15:38:30 GMTAndy Leonardhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx"If you wish to disparage my efforts because I am an MVP, that is certainly your choice and I sincerely wish you the best in finding someone who is both experienced with the nuances of a Microsoft technology and meets your criteria for reputable de-coupling from Microsoft itself."I don't believe I *personally* disparaged anyone - I made a valid point against a pseudo-technical marketing based designation of little value. *You* took it as a personal insult, because *you* happen to have that designation. And this is a perfect example of how membership in a group influences perception. Not only have you leapt to the assumption that you must defend yourself but you also must defend the group and the designation. If you had bothered to read for content instead of instantly trying to spew some M$ party line, you would see I am not against M$ program any more than any other company program that is designed to reward geeks who can parrot company party lines. I like the insinuation of the my somehow disparaging poor defenseless M$ with *rhetoric*, and just being a bad guy with a chip on my shoulder - what a crock! - anyone who thinks M$ or any other multi-billion dollar bureaucratic company is either some innocent lamb or that they really care about a client beyond a profit motive needs to wake up and smell the coffee.Case in point is being manipulated for chump change or a little fictitious public recognition. M$ isn't the enemy but it isn't a friend either - it is just another company looking to make money. Oracle or IBM aren't any different. As someone who dealt with vendors for years, any thought of glorifying M$ (or any other vendor) in any way has been eliminated by experience. Just trying to hold vendors to contacts without them trying to stuff 10-20K worth of "gottchas", or failing on time frames, is work enough. They can keep their hero biscuits and gratuitous designations, its meaningless to me. The only thing that matters is managing the relationship to get the job done - which means recognizing the other party for what they are.The idea that you should examine *all* information critically is true, especially from forums on the Internet. However my point is that you have to especially careful of information that is qualified by the presenters designation - especially if that designation is something dreamed up by a marketer. You have to examine that information especially critically. Just like this thread shows, if you start a little back slapping session and there is a dissenting view point often the group will be tempted to side with a supposed "authority" without evaluating the information properly, especially if they think there will be a reward for their support. Using "evangelists" both online and offline helps companies use this group dynamic to shape the message and perception of the messenger. This leads the uninformed to conclude that information from several sources may be good, whereas it may be tainted - and what you are getting is a company sponsored directed message. Being a knowledgeable consumer of information you have to critically examine both the information and sometimes the source in order to make a reasoned assessment.Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:06:06 GMTcgnospamhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]cgnospam (7/12/2008)[/b][hr]I have met M$ employee "experts" who are completely full of crap, and do nothing more than spew a the M$ party line. I have also met M$ employees and consultants who are honest and provide balanced and expert information. I have also met a lot of experts who have nothing to do with any software vendor, and whose expert opinion is just as good as anything you would get from a software vendor - or better because they have a multi-disciplinary approach validated by experience.[/quote]Conspicuous in its absence is the use case: "knowledgable people who weigh all the options and choose Microsoft as the best among them."I'm an MVP and I don't know everything. There. I admitted it (again even). I like to solve technical and business problems - that's the core of my motivation. I reap immense personal satisfaction from helping others do the same - that's how the core of my motivation is expressed to the community. If you, cgnospam, are experiencing a technical issue with a Microsoft product, I probably know someone who can help. There's a chance I can help. If you wish to disparage my efforts because I am an MVP, that is certainly your choice and I sincerely wish you the best in finding someone who is both experienced with the nuances of a Microsoft technology and meets your criteria for reputable de-coupling from Microsoft itself.As for your attempts at rhetoric; you're about ten years too late. That language was popular and somewhat effective during the late 1990's and early 2000's - when there were lawsuits flying about and multi-hour depositions of Bill Gates and threats of breaking up Microsoft. There are sites about filled with folks who share your fears. As I doubt you'll accept my offer to help with any particular technical issue, I refer you to them. They can be found by browsing to your favorite search engine and entering some inflammatory anti-Microsoft terms.Best,AndySun, 13 Jul 2008 11:52:24 GMTAndy Leonardhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxHeh... cgnospam words are pretty strong and most folks who have an MVP would certainly be upset about being called a "marketing whore" or maybe even an "evangelist" :hehe:, but let's clarify some things... things like the following are actually wrong, but not for the reason you may think... ;)[quote]But, because of the MVP you *should* immediately be suspect of their information and analyze it critically. As a educated knowledge worker you have to be very discerning and critical of information, as there is a lot of suspect information available, and a good amount is tainted with marketing information or direction. [/quote]I've seen it where [i]some [/i]MVP's suddenly think they're a god just because they got a service award and start spouting all sorts off ridiculous edicts on blogs and becoming incredibly arrogant on forums. Sure, they get some inside info from Microsoft, but it still has to be applied correctly. Cgnospam is correct... becoming an MVP doesn't automatically make you a PHD of whatever program you got it for... it's a respected "service" award and folks need to remember that. Here's why I say cgnospam's comments aren't entirely correct... I [i]don't [/i]limit suspicions to just MVP's... I've seen all sorts of folks with all sorts of "qual" lettering after their name and it means nothing because they're still an idiot (not everyone... just making an example), arrogant, or just plain wrong. Yes, yes... some folks are actually good at doing the things their qual lettering states, but many more are not. So I agree, but I'll take it to the next level... [i]"immediately be suspect of [[b]EVERYONE's[/b]] information and analyze it critically"[/i] whether they have letters after their name, or not, but especially if they're bragging about their supposed intelligence or skill... there's a lot of heavy breathing feather fluffers out there that really have no skill at all, or worse, have dangerous opinions that could cost you some data or server performance.On the flip side of things, congrats to all MVP's for being noticed, one way or the other. It's a big world with lots of people.Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:46:59 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxLooks like they're right here. Or we have someone upset they didn't get some recognition.Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:58:44 GMTSteve Jones - SSC Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxGosh, I was wondering where all the MS-haters had gotten too.Sun, 13 Jul 2008 06:27:27 GMTRBarryYounghttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx"easy to dismiss MVPs as marketing shills for MS, but before you do"You *should* dismiss them first as marketing shills, because that is what they are by definition. It isn't like an MVP is a PH.D - it is a pseudo technical marketing designation that is arbitrarily awarded by Microsoft for the benefit of Microsoft. Microsoft likely created this designation for one reason, to appeal to insecure geeks who need group assurance. Even better if you can get knowledgeable experts involved so they can be coerced (via social pressure) to spew the M$ company line. Now if the individual who happens to be an MVP is an expert who provides good information, and goes out of his/her way to help other people - hey good deal. But, because of the MVP you *should* immediately be suspect of their information and analyze it critically. As a educated knowledge worker you have to be very discerning and critical of information, as there is a lot of suspect information available, and a good amount is tainted with marketing information or direction. It is just another subtle but relatively harmless scam that companies with aggressive marketing machines dream up. It all depends on whether the information consumers buy into it. As M$ has an education arm as well as its company arm - knowledge workers might be fooled into thinking it is yet another source of valuable information or status to be worked towards. "Evangelists" are marketing whores, and as such recognize them as such, treat any information critically, and don't believe every word or that there isn't an alternative. At the same time if you evaluate the info as valuable use it, if it is well thought out expert information use it. Develop your abilities to independently assess and evaluate information - then implement it.I have met M$ employee "experts" who are completely full of crap, and do nothing more than spew a the M$ party line. I have also met M$ employees and consultants who are honest and provide balanced and expert information. I have also met a lot of experts who have nothing to do with any software vendor, and whose expert opinion is just as good as anything you would get from a software vendor - or better because they have a multi-disciplinary approach validated by experience.Sat, 12 Jul 2008 23:27:52 GMTcgnospamhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Steve Jones - Editor (7/12/2008)[/b][hr]I'd argue against the marketing comment for the most part. There are people that fit that category. Without a doubt.But most of the MVPs I know, and I think I know 30 or 40 of them, are professionals that donate their time to help others and enjoy writing about SQL Server. That's the way I started this site, not expecting it to make much $$, but never feeling I'd wasted a moment when the first two years didn't produce any profit.I think many MVPs, myself included, would still be out there answering questions and writing articles.There are quite a few companies that reward their MVPs financially, and most give them time off to work on projects related to their MVP award. They recognize the value of having highly skilled professionals around that enjoy the award.[/quote]Having known a few awardees personally before they received the MVP award (including Steve), I'm going to have to agree with Steve here. The ones I know, if anything, have worked harder for the community since receiving the award. And they were already heavy contributors. I've seen cases where MVPs have taken a lot of time, pro bono, to help someone on a forum or newsgroup. I've seen them take it off-line and continue to help. And, BTW, some of these guys are consultants making a lot of money. I can think of the ActiveDir forum, to give an example other than SQL Server, where those folks constantly go above and beyond. You've got folks who've managed HUGE AD environments, hundreds of thousands of objects, taking the time to walk a school IT administrator through how to get his single site, 50 user domain back on-line from backup. Why did they do it? Because that administrator needed help and they had the time to provide it. No other compensation was required.From my personal interaction, I know of cases where folks had a question to ask and I didn't know the answer, but I forwarded it to one of the MVPs who I knew would. In every single case they responded back with a comprehensive answer, often within a day or two. And I certainly have asked questions privately and gotten quick and thoughtful responses as well. In other words, they aren't marketing shills and they didn't set out to win the award, it was given to them because they were deserving of it. It's easy to dismiss MVPs as marketing shills for MS, but before you do, I'd challenge you to actually get to know them as people. It doesn't take any effort to generalize a group of people and just make assumptions. It's a whole different matter to actually investigate whether or not your assumptions as true. I think that if you do, you'll find your assumptions are off-base, and you'll meet some great people in the process.Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:58:59 GMTK. Brian Kelleyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxI'd argue against the marketing comment for the most part. There are people that fit that category. Without a doubt.But most of the MVPs I know, and I think I know 30 or 40 of them, are professionals that donate their time to help others and enjoy writing about SQL Server. That's the way I started this site, not expecting it to make much $$, but never feeling I'd wasted a moment when the first two years didn't produce any profit.I think many MVPs, myself included, would still be out there answering questions and writing articles.There are quite a few companies that reward their MVPs financially, and most give them time off to work on projects related to their MVP award. They recognize the value of having highly skilled professionals around that enjoy the award.Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:15:21 GMTSteve Jones - SSC Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]cgnospam (7/12/2008)[/b][hr]MVP for the most part is a marketing whore. There are a lot of companies that do it. They pick pick online "evangelists" on forums and use them to promote products. The "evangelists" like the attention and play along - its like pretending you are a little online celebrity. Some of the MVPs are knowledgeable, some are people that spend too much time online. Most people recognize it for what it is though, free marketing for M$ (or any other company who does it). If your advice or endorsement is really that valuable you would be paid money for it, or if you are interested in giving advice to help people for free - you would do that without looking for pretend ego-boosting compensation.If someone asks you to be an MVP, tell them your bill rate or that you are willing to negotiate a six figure contract - if they back off on the "MVP" talk - you know what it is really worth...[/quote]Woo-hoo! Remind me to take you to dinner, sometime. You like porkchops?Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:02:51 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxMVP for the most part is a marketing whore. There are a lot of companies that do it. They pick pick online "evangelists" on forums and use them to promote products. The "evangelists" like the attention and play along - its like pretending you are a little online celebrity. Some of the MVPs are knowledgeable, some are people that spend too much time online. Most people recognize it for what it is though, free marketing for M$ (or any other company who does it). If your advice or endorsement is really that valuable you would be paid money for it, or if you are interested in giving advice to help people for free - you would do that without looking for pretend ego-boosting compensation.If someone asks you to be an MVP, tell them your bill rate or that you are willing to negotiate a six figure contract - if they back off on the "MVP" talk - you know what it is really worth...Sat, 12 Jul 2008 00:34:17 GMTcgnospamhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]K. Brian Kelley (7/10/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]CarlosHawes (7/10/2008)[/b]I think the true measure of when true peace arrives is the day when MS finally releases one of its premier enterprise apps on an OS other than Windows. SQL Server would be my choice. After all, I can run Oracle on Windows, why not MSSQL on UNIX or Linux?[/quote]It's ultimately a business decision, and a pretty significant one. Releasing SQL Server on another OS would mean staffing up for that OS, maintaining separate code bases, etc. Microsoft went down this road with respect to the operating system. I still remember fondly my DEC Alphastation running Windows NT 4.0. But the return they were getting by supporting NT on multiple hardware platforms wasn't justifying the cost. As a result, we have Windows on Intel platforms exclusively now. From the other side of the fence (Oracle), if Windows is the dominant operating system or if it has a significantly increasing presence in your primary customer base, it only makes sense to get your product on Windows.Would I love to see Microsoft SQL Server on Linux? Absolutely. But do me a favor, MS. Get it on Windows Server Core, first.[/quote]Yes it is indeed a business decision. But Sysbase still manages to release SQL Server for multiple platforms with much lower staffing levels. I think MS was making a strategic decision to continue trying to lock users into all MS environments. Microsoft is almost alone now among major enterprise software vendors in doggedly continuing to release their apps on only one OS (of course they are also the only such vendor to also "own" an OS, so its only natural to support it in such a way). That is still their business model from the 1990's that got them into trouble with the DOJ. It's time to move into the new millennium and start "playing nice with others."Thanks for the advice on the book "Real World SQL Server Administration with Perl". I'll have to look that up! One advantage to our increased attention to MSSQL in my shop is that it is currently easier to get book purchases approved :DBest wishes!!!! This forum is proving a great resource as I try to climb the learning curve and add MSSQL Administration to my skill set. Everyone here is so helpful to others and those trying to learn.Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:59:36 GMTLoyd Gravitthttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]K. Brian Kelley (7/10/2008)[/b]... I still remember fondly my DEC Alphastation running Windows NT 4.0. ...[/quote]I remember going to a Comdex in Vegas one year (mid/late 90's?) and seeing a Dec Alpha Laptop running NT! What a beauty! It never saw the light of day, but that's one of the few machines that I actually lusted over.:DThu, 10 Jul 2008 08:18:11 GMTWayne Westhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]K. Brian Kelley (7/10/2008)[/b]You've seen SQL Server MVP Linchi Shea's book, right? If not, here's the title:[i]Real World SQL Server Administration with Perl[/i]It's from the SQL Server 2000 days, but it's a good one. A lot of things in it that would be of use to a SQL Server DBA.[/quote]Thanks, I knew of books on doing admin tasks on Windows servers, but I don't think I'd heard of this one. I'm jumping over to Amazon & Half to see if I can find a copy.I'm doing pretty trivial stuff with Perl: reformatting scripts and pulling/consolidating logs, I'm sure the book is much more useful. It was an effort to learn Perl through doing some practical tasks.Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:15:11 GMTWayne Westhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]CarlosHawes (7/10/2008)[/b]I think the true measure of when true peace arrives is the day when MS finally releases one of its premier enterprise apps on an OS other than Windows. SQL Server would be my choice. After all, I can run Oracle on Windows, why not MSSQL on UNIX or Linux?[/quote]It's ultimately a business decision, and a pretty significant one. Releasing SQL Server on another OS would mean staffing up for that OS, maintaining separate code bases, etc. Microsoft went down this road with respect to the operating system. I still remember fondly my DEC Alphastation running Windows NT 4.0. But the return they were getting by supporting NT on multiple hardware platforms wasn't justifying the cost. As a result, we have Windows on Intel platforms exclusively now. From the other side of the fence (Oracle), if Windows is the dominant operating system or if it has a significantly increasing presence in your primary customer base, it only makes sense to get your product on Windows.Would I love to see Microsoft SQL Server on Linux? Absolutely. But do me a favor, MS. Get it on Windows Server Core, first.Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:13:22 GMTK. Brian Kelleyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Andy Warren (7/10/2008)[/b][hr]Rick, I liked what you wrote and salute your efforts over the years (and you'd think they wouldnt sent out such things on Apr 1!). As far as not having Kalen, Kimberly, or others in the group, for me it's tough love. I'd like to think that both of them (I know neither of them personally) and others that work at that level would continue to learn and grow during the year break (or exile if you're cynical). Could it hurt them temporarily because of the lack of access to NDA material? Sure. Does it hurt their career/business - I doubt that, reputations are well established. And while the MVP group and MS would miss the depth they offer for a year, my hope - no guarantee - is that would be more than offset by the benefits of bringing in some new voices. One of the interesting side affects of my suggestion is that people do get to take a break from the MVP treadmill as it were.[/quote]If a particular MVP is that valuable to Microsoft with respect to depth, there's nothing saying Microsoft can't extend the newsgroups to 'em. Certainly that already have built in-roads into the folks at Microsoft. The NDA can be handled just as Microsoft would a valued business partner... Which, BTW, would ensure that the folks that really benefit and use the NDA material could still get access to it. I know that when I was in the USAF, because of the nature of my unit's mission, we basically had NDAs with Microsoft and Intel since we handled the computer contracts for the Air Force. Ours was more on the marketing and release side of the house (so we knew things like the processor capabilities and the roadmap for production and availability before the public did), but it shows that if there is a benefit on the business side, these companies can extend that knowledge.Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:08:20 GMTK. Brian Kelleyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Rick Heiges (7/10/2008)[/b][hr]I believe that Ken Henderson had in the back of one of his books a section on how to become an MVP. It was a little cynical and also was focused on newsgroups. I don't have it handy where I am right now, but take alook at it and have a chuckle.Rick...[/quote]It is in [i]The Guru's Guide to SQL Server Architecture and Internals[/i]. It's an appendix labeled [i]Psuedo-Techie Tactics 101: How to Make Yourself Appear to Be an Expert via Newsgroup Postings[/i].Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:03:31 GMTK. Brian Kelleyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]GilaMonster (7/9/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]CarlosHawes (7/9/2008)[/b][hr]But I find myself wondering if a SQL Sever MVP could safely recommend that a client deploy Oracle, mySQL, Postrese, or DB2 and still be an MVP the next cycle. [/quote]The South African MVPS (all of them, not just SQL Server), put on a full day workshop a few weeks back on windows, Linux, PHP, Java and Apache. The workshop was done at the MS offices, with full blessing of MS and the local MVP lead.[/quote]I do sense a change in the air from MS. They have always TALKED interoperability, but now I think there is a increasing influential group within MS that wants to make it a reality. As the old guard retires and moves on the "kill everything not MS" attitude may be waning. I welcome the trend. I'm ready for a little detente.I think I, like a lot of others who spent a lot of their careers in the UNIX/Oracle environment have gotten so defensive because we have spent a lot of our careers dealing with situations in which MS advocates come into our shops and try to rip out and replace existing proven systems with Windows/SQL Server just because MS technology is what THEY know. I feel like its has been 12 years of constant warfare and it gets old after a while.I think the true measure of when true peace arrives is the day when MS finally releases one of its premier enterprise apps on an OS other than Windows. SQL Server would be my choice. After all, I can run Oracle on Windows, why not MSSQL on UNIX or Linux?Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:58:28 GMTLoyd Gravitthttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxThe renewals are not as "automatic" as they have been. I believe they are looking for new blood and evaluate the performance evenly. If an MVP is not as involved as he/she used to be or perhaps their involvement is now not as great when compared with new nominees, the person must step up or not be surprised at not being renewed. I believe that Brian Moran and Fernando have removed themselves from the award. They are not as involved in the technical side of the house as they have been and feel the award would be better used by someone else.Also, MSFT can reduce the number of MVPs by hiring them. An MVP award is for non-MSFT personnel. :-) Buck Woody comes to mind immediately.I believe that Ken Henderson had in the back of one of his books a section on how to become an MVP. It was a little cynical and also was focused on newsgroups. I don't have it handy where I am right now, but take alook at it and have a chuckle.Rick...Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:46:54 GMTRick Heigeshttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxAgreed that you don't have to lower the bar, but this is a corporate program , like any other. Removing 100 MVPs in Dec and bringing back 20 impacts budgeting and spending and then perhaps makes it harder to bring in 100 in March if 100 more leave, or even bring back 150 in March.Cynical as well about that.I do think the competition generated is good, again, that med school philosophy. I think the bar raises constantly for more effort being put into the community, though I'd agree it gets gamed more.MVP != expert, it can be, but not necessarily. It's definitely passion and community.New people are necessary, and given that more people are trying harder, and I'm not sure I am, there should be at least one new person next year.I've also personally known at least 3 people this year that were not renewed.Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:23:26 GMTSteve Jones - SSC Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxSteve, as far as the term limits, just because you move a few people out is no reason to lower the bar. Say you have 200 MVP's and you push 1/3 out on Dec 31. Nothing says you have to elect a matching 1/3 back in. If you have candidates, good, if not, that's good too. Perhaps not good for MS in general, but I think more interesting for the community.I was at a working dinner last night with some students and the topic of MVP's came up, they all wanted to know 'what does it take to become an MVP', and as we've discussed here, wasn't able to provide much of answer. Clearly they all believed MVP = expert, which is sometimes true, but sometimes it's MVP = Community, or MVP = Passion. Not complaining about that, all of those bring something interesting to the table, the point is that the average Joe is more than a little interested.Rick, I liked what you wrote and salute your efforts over the years (and you'd think they wouldnt sent out such things on Apr 1!). As far as not having Kalen, Kimberly, or others in the group, for me it's tough love. I'd like to think that both of them (I know neither of them personally) and others that work at that level would continue to learn and grow during the year break (or exile if you're cynical). Could it hurt them temporarily because of the lack of access to NDA material? Sure. Does it hurt their career/business - I doubt that, reputations are well established. And while the MVP group and MS would miss the depth they offer for a year, my hope - no guarantee - is that would be more than offset by the benefits of bringing in some new voices. One of the interesting side affects of my suggestion is that people do get to take a break from the MVP treadmill as it were.For me it's back to two things. One is I think everyone deserves to have a reasonably clear understanding of why someone is an MVP, not to judge whether fair or not, but to appreciate their efforts and give them a basis for deciding if they have the stuff to get in the game. The other is that new blood is absolutely critical to the health of any organization over the long term, people fall into ruts, alliances (and enemies) are found, politics happens, etc. Said differently, it's human nature to be captured by the system in one form or another. Rotating members is a great way to reduce that, though it certainly can't be removed entirely.Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:15:27 GMTAndy Warrenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]CarlosHawes (7/9/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Wayne West (7/9/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]CarlosHawes (7/9/2008)[/b][hr]... I've gotta have my UNIX shell scripts. ...[/quote]I can't comment on shell scripts, but I've written two Perl programs to help me with day-to-day operations, and they save me a bucket of time. Maybe a bucket and a half.:DOne of these days I'll do an article about Perl & SQL Server....[/quote]I would love to see such an article. I presently use bash shell scripts from cron jobs on a windows box set up as a cygwin environment. I took what I knew from Oracle/UNIX and forced it to work on windows. Probably not the most efficient path, but it got the job done.I guess that's why I wish MS would port MSSQL to different OSes. Some of us have spent a lot of time learning the quirks and powers of UNIX and would love to leverage that skill in our MSSQL DBA work.[/quote]You've seen SQL Server MVP Linchi Shea's book, right? If not, here's the title:[i]Real World SQL Server Administration with Perl[/i]It's from the SQL Server 2000 days, but it's a good one. A lot of things in it that would be of use to a SQL Server DBA.Thu, 10 Jul 2008 06:58:39 GMTK. Brian Kelleyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]CarlosHawes (7/9/2008)[/b][hr]But I find myself wondering if a SQL Sever MVP could safely recommend that a client deploy Oracle, mySQL, Postrese, or DB2 and still be an MVP the next cycle. [/quote]The South African MVPS (all of them, not just SQL Server), put on a full day workshop a few weeks back on windows, Linux, PHP, Java and Apache. The workshop was done at the MS offices, with full blessing of MS and the local MVP lead.Wed, 09 Jul 2008 23:52:14 GMTGilaMonsterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxI can think of several folks who I believe should be MVPs, but they aren't for whatever reason. The selection process is not perfect, but it is not MVPs who make the rules or selection. MSFT makes the rules and the selection.At first, I thought it might be a process like the Baseball Hall of Fame where the sportswriters voted you in. It is NOT as elaborate as that. Therre is no "blackball" from other MVPs. If you want to be a MVP, serve the community passionately; you will eventually be rewarded. When the MVP program started, it was mainly geared towards thos people who would spend hours answering newsgroup posts. That is still regarded as a "path" into the program by responding quickly and courteously (most of the time) with accurate technical information. More recently, MVPs have been selected for their contributions outside of the newsgroups/forums. Activities such as organizing local user group meetings, posting scripts/projects on codeplex, speaking, volunteering for PASS, writing articles, running a great website, etc. have become part of the equation as well. These other areas outside of the newsgroups aren't as visible to MSFT and therefore may not get rewarded in the same manner. But if you are truly passionate about it, it will come one day.I am truly honored to be considered an MVP. Some of my favorite resources for information on SQL Server comes from this group of people. They have helped me become a better member of the community. I have been very active in the SQL Server Community since 2001. I am now a 2nd year MVP as I was first awarded in April 1, 2007 (6 years after I became active in the community). I remember not telling anyone for a few days about the award becuase I received the email informing me of the award on April Fool's Day and thought it might be a joke. ;-)SQL MVPs are hard on the SQL Server Dev Team in private. I've witnessed this myself. I have done many presentations where I present with a MSFT field rep. The MSFT field rep has to tow the MSFT line; I do not and can bring value to the customer. I have never heard one MVP or even a MSFT person say to another SQL MVP that "You sholdn't say this or that" in regards to "pumping" MSFT. I have heard it in regards to NDA material though, but that is another matter. SQL MVPs want to make the product better and also want the overall experience to be better by sharing solutions / workarounds.Kathi stated earlier that now people think that she knows everything about SQL Server. The product is so big now that I don't think that anyone (well - perhaps Richard Waymire) could know everything about SQL Server. I proudly admit that i do not know everything. I do however listen to the question. I help if I can. If I cannot, I point them in the right direction. This is the common thread among MVPs that I have observed - being able to guide a perosn to the right resource if he/she is not able to answer the question. Andy's Point on Limits - Would you want the influence of folks like Kimberly Tripp, Andy Kelly, Kalen Delaney, Itzik Ben-Gan and countless others (I can't list all of them here) to miss out on the opportunity to make a difference in the product because of limts? As I mentioned earlier, the SQL MVPs are not afraid to let MSFT know that a particular feature or approach is "silly" to put it mildly. Having someone who is very qualified and knowledgable to communicate to MSFT that this is NOT what the customers want is invaluable.The MVP or the Engineer point.... I agree with Andy Leonard and Gail - it depends... It is late and my fingers are tired. I am sure that I did not address something here, but that is life.Rick...Wed, 09 Jul 2008 21:16:19 GMTRick Heigeshttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxInteresting discussion. I view SQL Server MVPs as a group of very talented and passionate Microsoft database professionals... plus me.I've heard people accuse MVPs of bias towards Microsoft in the past. I have to admit it's a compelling argument. Think about it: MVPs receive recognition, free software, the inside scoop on some stuff going on at Microsoft. It all fits.I also have a compelling argument about the location of US airports: (I'm going somewhere, bear with me): I believe the FAA decided the location of airports in the US by creating a huge 3-D map of the flight plans of jets and airplanes. They took note of where the flight plans intersected [i]and[/i] indicated declining altitudes approaching 0 feet until they became tangential with the local altitude. That's where they placed the airports.Both compelling arguments have a few things in common. They're technically logical. One could argue either in Occam's court. And, on some level, both are insulting to someone's intelligence and / or integrity.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~For me it's pretty simple. I like diving into technological things. I find I simply do not have the time (or inclination) to dig into everything. So I made a choice. I chose the stuff I was already most comfortable with, and that was Microsoft technology. I haven't regretted it for a minute.I don't write (or even say) bad things about other technology. In fact, I say things like "I don't know enough about 'XYZ' brand to comment with integrity about a comparison." Mostly I say these kinds of things about SSIS compared to its competitors. Sometimes I wish those who don't know enough about SSIS wouldn't comment about it either.As for the MVP Award, I was floored and honored to receive it. It's humbling. It has impacted my behavior: It's made me work harder and stay up later and dig in deeper while answering the questions of folks struggling with learning SSIS or Database Edition or SQL Server. They're learning just like I am. If I can help them some, I will. That's what keeps me hooked on technology: Helping others learn it and use it better!:{> AndyWed, 09 Jul 2008 17:48:56 GMTAndy Leonardhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Steve Jones - Editor (7/9/2008)[/b][hr]It doesn't really matter too much to me if I get it again, and if someone else like Michael Coles or Jeff Moden or Gail Shaw can get the award in my place next year, I'd be happy to be swept aside.[/quote]That wouldn't make me so happy... I'd step aside for you. Sure, you get paid for running the site... but a lot of other folks in your place wouldn't do it so well or with such zeal and flair... you have "the passion". If you also consider that you and 2 others started this site a long time ago to try to help people, I think you should become the first "Lifetime MVP". :)Wed, 09 Jul 2008 17:48:15 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxI know quite a few MVPs that work regularly with MySQL, Oracle, and DB2. They sell what the client wants, though I'm not sure if they participate in communities for those products. A good question to ask.I don't think that more specific guidelines will help because it will encourage gaming. I'm not sure this is the best way to do things, but I'm not sure that publishing rules is a better one. After all, this is a recognition by Microsoft of work in the community, not an endorsement of skill. Heck, they picked me P)The term limits are interesting. I think we should have them in government, so Andy pinned me on why I don't think they're needed here.Part of it is the med-school philosophy. If everyone has a chance, and you know someone is already working hard posting, writing, speaking, whatever, then doesn't that encourage those who want the award to work harder?Part of it is that I don't think people that work hard, and gain benefits from their company, consulting, etc., should be punished by removing the award from them.Part of it is that if you know xx people will not be up for renewal, then is the bar lowered for what gets you an MVP? Maybe that's not a bad thing since it's a community award and not necessarily a technical one. Of course if you're not that technical, I'm not sure how you gain some status in the community.It doesn't really matter too much to me if I get it again, and if someone else like Michael Coles or Jeff Moden or Gail Shaw can get the award in my place next year, I'd be happy to be swept aside.Wed, 09 Jul 2008 16:27:06 GMTSteve Jones - SSC Editorhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxUmmmm.... I use T-SQL and CmdShell... Once in a while, I may throw a little VBS into the mix... but everything else I do when I do DBA work is T-SQL and CmdShell to old DOS commands. Yeah... I'm into Retro motorcycles, as well. :hehe:Wed, 09 Jul 2008 16:17:33 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Wayne West (7/9/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]CarlosHawes (7/9/2008)[/b][hr]... I've gotta have my UNIX shell scripts. ...[/quote]I can't comment on shell scripts, but I've written two Perl programs to help me with day-to-day operations, and they save me a bucket of time. Maybe a bucket and a half.:DOne of these days I'll do an article about Perl & SQL Server....[/quote]I would love to see such an article. I presently use bash shell scripts from cron jobs on a windows box set up as a cygwin environment. I took what I knew from Oracle/UNIX and forced it to work on windows. Probably not the most efficient path, but it got the job done.I guess that's why I wish MS would port MSSQL to different OSes. Some of us have spent a lot of time learning the quirks and powers of UNIX and would love to leverage that skill in our MSSQL DBA work.Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:52:12 GMTLoyd Gravitthttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]CarlosHawes (7/9/2008)[/b][hr]... I've gotta have my UNIX shell scripts. ...[/quote]I can't comment on shell scripts, but I've written two Perl programs to help me with day-to-day operations, and they save me a bucket of time. Maybe a bucket and a half.:DOne of these days I'll do an article about Perl & SQL Server....Wed, 09 Jul 2008 15:22:26 GMTWayne Westhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Dugi (7/9/2008)[/b][hr]Very intereseting ....So if you compare one MVP(SQL - and we have some infos how to become MVP) with one Software Engineer (SQL or Oracle Database) Graduate Master or Doctorature in famous Universitys with more than 10 years experience, and he does't write for community or any speech in Microsoft events, he has just the author of many books about Database doesn't metter SQL or Oracle!Now, who is the best for you the MVP guy or the Engineer!???In this case if we choose the Engineer, what about the MVP!!!:hehe:[/quote]Heh... Based on some of the software "engineers" I've interviewed in the last 4 years, I'd have to say the MVP... :hehe: but (putting my serious face on) the real key is that you simply cannot tell until you get them into a Technical Interview... period. ;)Wed, 09 Jul 2008 14:11:29 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]webrunner (7/9/2008)[/b][hr]Steve,In your editorial you write, "I'm not sure why I was picked."That's very humble. But as someone who has benefited from the SQL expertise that you and many others bring to this site, I can tell you that there are uncountable reasons why you were picked as an MVP. The service your site provides and the effort you put in to keeping the SQL Server community connected and informed are only two such reasons.If they had not picked you for MVP status, then I'm not sure who would ever qualify. :w00t:Congratulations, and thanks. Best regards,webrunner[/quote]Hear here! I absolutely agree with that!Wed, 09 Jul 2008 14:06:41 GMTJeff Modenhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]CarlosHawes (7/9/2008)[/b][hr]But I find myself wondering if a SQL Sever MVP could safely recommend that a client deploy Oracle, mySQL, Postrese, or DB2 and still be an MVP the next cycle. I have always (fairly or not I do not know) sort of suspected that MVP is an award that MS will only give out to someone who has always and will continue to promote and evangelize MS solutions. And in all fairness, I really would have the same questions about recommendations from an Oracle ACE recipient as well.[/quote]I have seen MVPs recommend solutions other than Microsoft and maintain their MVP status.Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:58:03 GMTK. Brian Kelleyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxMy experience in IT over the past 12 years has been an impression that there is a distinct cultural division in IT. You clearly have a camp or tribe that views Microsoft as an advanced and technologically sophisticated company that has great software solutions. You also have a camp that views Microsoft as a cancer on the IT world that only rips off or steals ideas and then implements them in shoddy software that only sells because they already have a monopoly. Lets call these camps respectively the "Softies" and the "ABMs" (Anything But Microsoft). Both of these camps are vocal and committed and very difficult to convert or convince from the other side. Then there is a group of unknown size (because they aren't very vocal) that only cares if a tool can to the job (the "Pragmatists").Once someone is designated a Microsoft MVP, the ABM'ers almost instantly tune that person out because they obviously had to sell out to MS to get the honor and therefore can't be trusted. The Softies will view that person as more authoritative and worthy of more attention. I have no idea how the pragmatists would view the designation. I lean toward the ABM camp but like to think that I keep an open mind and will listen to what a Softie has to say. I will even recommend their products for certain situations, especially small shops that don't have staff trained in UNIX or Linux. I definitely give more respect to a SQL Sever MVP than other categories because part of my job is managing SQL Sever dbs and the SQL Server MVPs I have read have all seemed extremely knowledgeable, professional and well grounded in relational theory. Also, I view MSSQL as one of the company's very best products. I always say that I would use SQL Server a lot more if MS put out a version for Linux :) (it's Windows that causes most of the problems). I've gotta have my UNIX shell scripts.But I find myself wondering if a SQL Sever MVP could safely recommend that a client deploy Oracle, mySQL, Postrese, or DB2 and still be an MVP the next cycle. I have always (fairly or not I do not know) sort of suspected that MVP is an award that MS will only give out to someone who has always and will continue to promote and evangelize MS solutions. And in all fairness, I really would have the same questions about recommendations from an Oracle ACE recipient as well.But my heartiest congratulations for your SQL Server designation. I know you have earned it through technical excellence, not for Service to Redmond. The MSSQL MVPs are in a different league in my book.Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:53:14 GMTLoyd Gravitthttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxDugi,I look at it this way. The MVP is a community service award. However, in order to win it you're supposed to be extremely knowledgable in the area for which you have been recognized as an MVP. While I have seen some cynicism in the developer ranks over a handful of their MVPs, in general this is not a problem in the SQL Server ranks. If I see someone is a SQL Server MVP and they're talking about something, I'm going to pull up a chair and listen. Thus far, I've not been disappointed. Since I wear dual hats, I also keep up with Directory Services and I feel this is the case with the Directory Services MVPs. They are smart, knowledgeable people who care about the community around their technology focus. As smart knowledgeable people in a particular technology focus, they are by nature solid engineers in that technology focus as well.This isn't to say that an MVP is better than an engineer or an engineer is better than an MVP. You can't make generalizations like that. You have to look at each as individuals and how their specialties within SQL Server fit within the role you're looking to fill. Wed, 09 Jul 2008 12:58:04 GMTK. Brian Kelleyhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspx[quote][b]Dugi (7/9/2008)[/b][hr]Now, who is the best for you the MVP guy or the Engineer!???[/quote]Best for what? Writing books? Teaching a class? Managing a database?Wed, 09 Jul 2008 12:54:57 GMTGilaMonsterhttp://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic530463-263-1.aspxVery intereseting ....So if you compare one MVP(SQL - and we have some infos how to become MVP) with one Software Engineer (SQL or Oracle Database) Graduate Master or Doctorature in famous Universitys with more than 10 years experience, and he does't write for community or any speech in Microsoft events, he has just the author of many books about Database doesn't metter SQL or Oracle!Now, who is the best for you the MVP guy or the Engineer!???In this case if we choose the Engineer, what about the MVP!!!:hehe:Wed, 09 Jul 2008 12:43:14 GMTDugi