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RE: The Shortage of Programmers

jbnv — Wed, 02 Jan 2013 12:21:11 GMT

Who are these people making 75-100K writing software right out of college? I have been doing it professionally for over a decade and still am nowhere near 6 figures.

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

Eric M Russell — Fri, 28 Dec 2012 07:33:55 GMT

Relatively few companies have lost employees or potential candidates to Microsoft or Google. If you're looking for competent or even talented programmers who will work for under 100k, they are certainly out there. Beside that, a lot of the college grads who go to work for Microsoft and Google become even better programmers from the experience and go on to start their own companies. If I had to make a Top 20 list of issues confronting the IT community, this wouldn't make the cut.

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

jay-h — Wed, 26 Dec 2012 07:34:09 GMT

I can't see why he is rangint about MS and Google pay scales. They can only hire so many people, and since the market in general cannot support such astronomical figures, there are plenty of decent quality people in the real world. MS and Google cannot create a shortage.BTW after a year of working at it, my son got into Google software development (even though his major was electrical engineering).

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

Simian336 — Wed, 26 Dec 2012 07:23:14 GMT

Several years ago Microsoft and other went out of their way to promote education. They talked about a need for tech workers and how they could not find the employees they needed.Then the resession hit and they immediatly laid off 5000 people. If you can't find the people you need and you have 50 billion in reserve why would you lay off people?Simiple, it has nothing to do with people but what you pay them. The more people with CS degrees the less you have to pay them.Mike

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

Charles Kincaid — Mon, 12 May 2008 15:09:57 GMT

[quote][b]tim (5/12/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]David.Poole (5/5/2008)[/b][hr] Its a tricky one because on one hand you can ask the consumer what they would consider to be really cool. This is likely to lead to an evolutionary product.On the other hand you think you have a "eureka" moment that has a 99% chance of falling flat on its face and a 1% chance of producing a revolutionary product.[/quote]QFT. Anyone who has seen an episode of that terrible TV show "American Inventor" can attest to this. :D[/quote]I have been trying to catch that and "Pantent Bending" as well. Thinking about David's comments made me think about cars again. Tucker, Edsel, etc. Hughes played with steam cars for a while

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

tim-707944 — Mon, 12 May 2008 14:48:28 GMT

[quote][b]David.Poole (5/5/2008)[/b][hr]There is always a problem creating the "must have" product when you have no idea what that product the consumer will consider to be "must have".What I read into Joel's rant was that no-one wanted the product the first time around and the vendor couldn't believe how stupid the consumer was, so they tried again, and again and again.....Its a tricky one because on one hand you can ask the consumer what they would consider to be really cool. This is likely to lead to an evolutionary product.On the other hand you think you have a "eureka" moment that has a 99% chance of falling flat on its face and a 1% chance of producing a revolutionary product.[/quote]QFT. Anyone who has seen an episode of that terrible TV show "American Inventor" can attest to this. :D

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

jack-64275 — Mon, 05 May 2008 13:21:41 GMT

I get a kick out of how he works himself into a frenzy then starts freaking out about Microsoft "sucking up" all the talent...Then at the end he's advertising for interns but they have to hurry and get thier apps in because he only has 4 spots and gets hundreds of applications?????

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

Charles Kincaid — Mon, 05 May 2008 12:26:02 GMT

[quote][b]Steve Jones - Editor (5/5/2008)[/b][hr]Couldn't I go with bald-Ballmer look? I'm getting there on my own already.Course I'm in a little better shape, maybe I'm the tan Ozzie/Ballmer morph! ;)[/quote]Sure. And I bet your German isn't that good either.

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

David.Poole — Mon, 05 May 2008 12:10:30 GMT

There is always a problem creating the "must have" product when you have no idea what that product the consumer will consider to be "must have".What I read into Joel's rant was that no-one wanted the product the first time around and the vendor couldn't believe how stupid the consumer was, so they tried again, and again and again.....Its a tricky one because on one hand you can ask the consumer what they would consider to be really cool. This is likely to lead to an evolutionary product.On the other hand you think you have a "eureka" moment that has a 99% chance of falling flat on its face and a 1% chance of producing a revolutionary product.The problem with young programmers on high salaries is that there is a price/quality perception. He/She is earning mega-bucks therefore they must be a genius. That mentality worked brilliantly in the banking sector didn't it? Lending money to people who can't pay it back is stupid? You just don't get the new paradigm!when these megabucks programmers are hired as CTOs will they have the experience for their role?Old age isn't synonymous with wisdom but neither is high intelligence. I've seen some very bright people do very dumb things that a less talented person would look at and say "what sort of fool would do that"!An inexperienced guy will say "the technology is cool, I've planned it all through, the go live date is next week"!The experienced guy will say "the technology is cool but human beings are involved so we have some issues to solve. If it goes live it will be in Q4 and the backout plan is ;x'".

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

mcaster — Mon, 05 May 2008 12:08:45 GMT

I interviewed twice at Microsoft for consulting/contract positions. The interviewers were rude to the point that I told my agency never to send me there again, even if it was the only job in the world.Money and "fame" is NOT everything.

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

Wayne West — Mon, 05 May 2008 11:53:47 GMT

[quote][b]Matt Miller (5/5/2008)[/b]Still - I have to say I'm surprised that he would begrudge anyone their good fortune. Hiring the top talent has always been the purview of those with the deepest pockets, and to be honest - the types of "top talent" they're looking for wouldn't necessarily need "real-world experience": they're looking to land the next Einstein, Stradivari, etc...(someone right off the normal charts, heading for that huge next breakthrough).The rant stinks of sours grapes IMO (something like what Wayne picked up on).[/quote]That's what it feels like to me. The problem is, regarding the first part of Joel's rant about clouds and synchronization, is that MS and Google have to invent "the next big thing", and no one knows what will be (and if they aren't the one to invent it, then jump on that bandwagon ASAP). There may be some indications as to what it might be, but we don't know until it arrives and only then do we know if it will sink or swim.I don't think data clouds are "it", nor do I think Amazon's "data center for anyone with $$$" is it. It's a very cool thing, and if I needed horsepower on demand, I'd certainly consider it. And if clouds are it, I won't be participating, just like I don't (and won't) have a Facebook profile or a MySpace page.Frequently we find that the next big thing is going to be someone having a flash of inspiration and a clever implementation to make it real. And that may or may not be a top CS grad, it could just as easily be a *nix hacker mucking about with PHP open source freeware.

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

Matt Miller (#4) — Mon, 05 May 2008 11:17:03 GMT

[quote][b]mhaskins (5/5/2008)[/b][hr]Matt,Joel was originally talking about new grads coming into the market, getting hired by Microsoft or Google and making Sr. level money. It may be possible to get hired right out of college as a Sr. Developer, but I would imagine this would be unlikely. So, the link in my previous post shows non-senior people for a comparison.Mia[/quote]got it - didn't think we were still discussing the new grads. In that case - yes, I'd say they would be few and far between.Still - I have to say I'm surprised that he would begrudge anyone their good fortune. Hiring the top talent has always been the purview of those with the deepest pockets, and to be honest - the types of "top talent" they're looking for wouldn't necessarily need "real-world experience": they're looking to land the next Einstein, Stradivari, etc...(someone right off the normal charts, heading for that huge next breakthrough).The rant stinks of sours grapes IMO (something like what Wayne picked up on).

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

mhaskins — Mon, 05 May 2008 10:31:18 GMT

Matt,Joel was originally talking about new grads coming into the market, getting hired by Microsoft or Google and making Sr. level money. It may be possible to get hired right out of college as a Sr. Developer, but I would imagine this would be unlikely. So, the link in my previous post shows non-senior people for a comparison.Mia

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

bitbucket-25253 — Mon, 05 May 2008 09:31:29 GMT

[quote][b]aljtdj (5/5/2008)[/b][hr]Whine all he wants, and make no mistake it is whining, developing an architecture and/or tools that [i]millions[/i] of people, other developers included, will use is far more 'heady' or significant a task than developing software for some two bit clerk to enter sales invoices more efficiently.[/quote]Which would you want to be a "Little fish in a big pool" or a "Big fish in a little pool". Being a Big fish in a little pool is just as heady and perhaps even more so than being a 'Little fish in a big pool'. After all you might actually know that "two bit clerk" and be able to hear them say the words "thank you, it works great". Having been fortunate enough to work in both situations let me say "Big fish in a little pool" is more satisfying to me and many others.

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

Matt Miller (#4) — Mon, 05 May 2008 09:28:33 GMT

[quote][b]mhaskins (5/5/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]amysecker (5/5/2008)[/b][hr]Not to mention that breaking into 6 figures isn't that much any more: taxes go up, gas goes up, hopefully starting salaries for in-demand fields go up.[/quote]Maybe most of the people watching this post are rolling in it :)However, this small survey doesn't really agree with your comment:[url]http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer_%2f_Developer_%2f_Programmer/Salary[/url]The same site also has some Canadian salaries ... they are even further from the 6-figure salaries that amysecker finds commonplace.Mia[/quote]If you take into account that this particular title has a specific "paygrade" in mind, no - that particular title doesn't much break into the 100's. On the other hand, you might care to check out the scale for [b]Senior Software engineers/designers[/b], etc.... you get a much different picture, which does break into the 100's fairly often.

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

Wayne West — Mon, 05 May 2008 09:26:15 GMT

Joel's rant, aside from the last paragraph ranting on salary, seems to be focusing on "clouds" and synchronization. A friend of mine, a citizen of Mexico, bought an AirMac with a solid-state drive just so he could travel into the USA without fear of anything being found on his drive: he pulls everything that he needs out of .Mac and wipes the drive before crossing the border.Myself, if I ever start traveling internationally, I'll probably clean out the things that I don't want TSA people looking at, PGP the things that I consider trade secrets, and create a mostly empty "public" login to show them that I'm a clean, upstanding, citizen. Meanwhile I plot the downfall and subjugation of the world for the Free Republic of Mars! :hehe:I am not a fan of clouds, I want to be in control of my data. I maintain backups, though I'm no longer doing off-site backups. All I need to do that is buy another 500gig external HD and have my wife drop it off at the observatory when she goes to work. I'm not terribly concerned with Yahoo and Google looking at my email accounts, because I don't do anything particularly noteworthy. That does not mean that I want my life to be an open book to be examined by the government or anyone else: anything that I want to be private I PGP and use encrypted email for with keys exchanged with a very select few.But I'm ranting about clouds and privacy, which is not what the editorial is about.Undeniably, Joel is right: Google & MS can afford to offer high salaries to top grads. He's also right that they have no real-world experience. Both companies have to make the appearance of hiring top talent, they have to answer to the Board of Directors which answer to the share holders. They have to try to maintain continuous growth, which is not possible in the long run, but they have to try: Wall Street will have it no other way. Both companies currently have the resources to do that, but will it last forever? I doubt it. I think Google's stock is tremendously overvalued and is going to hit a reality check speed bump in the not-too-distant future.Google & MS can out-bid for top programmers. But there's plenty of skilled programmers still available, along with many tops who, as Our Beloved Editor and others have pointed out, don't want to move to Redmond or work for one of these companies, they have other motivations rather than just top dollar.Joel, like many bloggers and editorial writers is frequently amusing, frequently insightful, and frequently just bloviating, full of sound and fury but signifying nothing.[i](sounds to me like he got sniped at the last minute like an eBay auction when he was trying to hire someone)[/i]

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Mon, 05 May 2008 09:16:27 GMT

Couldn't I go with bald-Ballmer look? I'm getting there on my own already.Course I'm in a little better shape, maybe I'm the tan Ozzie/Ballmer morph! ;)

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

mhaskins — Mon, 05 May 2008 09:13:24 GMT

[quote][b]amysecker (5/5/2008)[/b][hr]Not to mention that breaking into 6 figures isn't that much any more: taxes go up, gas goes up, hopefully starting salaries for in-demand fields go up.[/quote]Maybe most of the people watching this post are rolling in it :)However, this small survey doesn't really agree with your comment:[url]http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Software_Engineer_%2f_Developer_%2f_Programmer/Salary[/url]The same site also has some Canadian salaries ... they are even further from the 6-figure salaries that amysecker finds commonplace.Mia

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

Charles Kincaid — Mon, 05 May 2008 08:52:05 GMT

[quote]Being the "Voice of Microsoft" has a nice ring to it [/quote]I dunno. I just can't picture you with a hair line moustache, thick glasses, and a hat with a little silver skull on the front. I'm not going to start calling you "little Joe" just yet. :w00t:You can tell I'm jerking you around here, right?

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

David Morrison-443063 — Mon, 05 May 2008 08:39:24 GMT

Steve,Actually, there are very few baseball players making $200K to $300K per year. The major league minimum is over $500K, and minor league salaries are very low.David Morrison

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

spiner — Mon, 05 May 2008 07:55:57 GMT

I agree with your philosophical points and also the comments about Joel. As a long time reader of his column, I was really surprised. It definitely sounds like a rant in all respects. Architecture astronauts or not - Google is getting bigger and bigger by offering web based software for the masses. I think a better point to explore would be that Microsoft has taken a follow-ship position, and how it has happened. I also tried to listen to Joel's new podcasts but boy are they ever boring! The title of each podcast is "podcast #1", "podcast #2" and so on - pretty clear they didn't have a clear topic to explore intelligently. Also, I've come to expect suits to denegrate and deminish the contribution of SW developers, but not Joel! I am [u]sure [/u]that Joel has at least a few past columns in which he explained the economics of SW on the side of SW developers, such that one good, cheaply distributed and properly marketed product can bring in a great deal of money, which is why a SW developer can justifiably make more than a doctor or accountant. (The SW developers contribution is effectively spread to lots of places at the same time, doing lots of work not easily done otherwise.) Not to mention that breaking into 6 figures isn't that much any more: taxes go up, gas goes up, hopefully starting salaries for in-demand fields go up.

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

aljtdj — Mon, 05 May 2008 06:56:16 GMT

Whine all he wants, and make no mistake it is whining, developing an architecture and/or tools that [i]millions[/i] of people, other developers included, will use is far more 'heady' or significant a task than developing software for some two bit clerk to enter sales invoices more efficiently. Why would you not want to work in that role for those two companies? But of course, Hailstorm is the only product MS has to work on! However, that wouldn't be as good as peddling jobs on my blog.....jobs.joelonsoftware.com.

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

mhaskins — Mon, 05 May 2008 06:55:47 GMT

In Canada, there has been a decades long "brain-drain" south to the United States. People get paid more and pay less taxes (generally). But I agree with Steve ... if someone from the US wants to pay me more money so that I can program from Canada, I'll sign up. Until then, I am pretty happy living where I am.Mia

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

Andy Warren — Mon, 05 May 2008 06:54:15 GMT

I worry that we're going to tip over in some weird way. You've got kids with very little real experience making $75-100k right out of high school/college. No doubt some are very good, but when you start out at the level you're just looking to go higher, and outside of MS/Google going higher is very hard. In addition, the bigger challenge is that you've the experienced people making about $5k a year more than the beginners. I'd like to think they should command a bit more of a premium. It's long been a challenge in corporate circles and it's not gettting any easier.

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

jcrawf02 — Mon, 05 May 2008 06:24:37 GMT

Steve - "Being the "Voice of Microsoft" has a nice ring to it "Thou blasphemer! May the mighty Bill smite thee with a pox!

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

Someguy — Mon, 05 May 2008 06:13:54 GMT

Don't forget - along with the perks come the risks. Not all that long ago a lot of people thought that working for IBM was a guaranteed gold watch and comfortable retirement. Then all of a sudden IBM had to run leaner and a lot of people got pink slips. IBM is still a major player in the software field, but it's surprising how good things can come and go. It's likely only a matter of time before Microsoft (and eventually Google) will have to have the make the same kinds of decisions.Unfortunately, until the day that the west dumps capitalism and replaces it with socialist central planning (and I don't think that day is coming any time soon) we all have to live with the ups and downs of the market for our jobs.As a general rule, I find it's best to realize that there are certain places where you get pools of employment for your field - find the one you like best and hang around. While you're there, work hard to make yourself valuable. It's not a perfect approach, but it works for me...P.S. to the editors - "Google" is not in the spell check dictionary of the text editor for your site. I got a message that it should be changed to "Goggle". oops!

RE: The Shortage of Programmers

John Magnabosco — Mon, 05 May 2008 04:50:16 GMT

Everyone has their piece of the pie that they are pursiung. For some their piece is the big bucks and the prestige. For others it is using their skills to aid a smaller company to be the big company of tomorrow. For another group it is contributing to the development of the Developer Community. This variety is important in the continuity of our industry. There are hands. There are feet. We all cannot be hands. We all cannot be feet.

The Shortage of Programmers

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Sat, 03 May 2008 11:45:51 GMT

Comments posted to this topic are about the item [B]The Shortage of Programmers[/B]