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RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Sean McPartlin — Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:32:00 GMT

It isn't dead it's just there isn't an academic track for NON-PROGRAMMERS> I was taught Pascal, C++ and an bunch of other languages and made write dumb programs that did math, found data in a database and did something with it, played some boring game, made puzzles, made sounds and pictures and more stuff that was boring to me. It wasn't hard for me. I could think like the programming language and spent a lot of time makeing the code short and sweet. Wanted the code to look pretty. But that was just to feed my ego. In the end it was not information that I used in my profession. I wanted to be a DBA, sys admin, manager, and later on a Director and then a Director of even bigger and better. I want control, atonamy, and respect for my choices. Now that might be what collage is for. Either your a critical thinker or your not. If you not, then stay out of CS. Stay out of the tech field. Do something that simply requires you to do what your told. I feel CS (meaing your a computer scientist or computer engenieer) means your a problem solver no diffrent then an Electrical or any other eng. I'm tired of working with D*mb A** people who got into computers because the pay was good. Those people annoy the crap out of me. I do what I do because it's what I like to do. It comes easy and was a natrual choice. Hell I could go do law and make more money. BuT At this point I don't want to.

Being MS certified isn't the same as getting a BS in CS. Except there are basic principles like how to design a server and plan your network's structure and security that University's can't teach because the teachers don't know how to do that themselves. But I think there should be a non-programming track taught at all your major schools. Besides how many burned out programmers do you know that stoped being a developer have less then 10 years to become some sort of manager? Then your just stuck in the machine. No there needs to be a better way then that. With offshore codeing sweatshops that's not a good option anymore. But every company needs people that know where the IT world is going and ride the board. Pick the wrong wave and you just went from "the guy or gal" to "the chump with the pink slip"

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

rudy - Doctor "X" — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 08:20:00 GMT

Thank You Jeff ... now back to my paper and pencil ...

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Jeff Moden — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 07:22:00 GMT

I think the point here is that it doesn't appear that they're teaching such basics anymore.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Gift Peddie — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:13:00 GMT

Well back on planet earth software companies want C++, C#, Java, Object modeling, relational modeling, dimension modeling and prediction modeling so they can start billing for what you are coding or designing . All of the above are CS programs for people with college funds not ones who want a job before their student loans come due so credit checks will not stop them from getting jobs with their hard earned degrees. One more thing all the above list is in C# 3.0, yes predicate algebra and set logic is now in C# thanks to the brilliant Anders Hejlsberg and his team, the computer industry have finally given him the long over due recognition. And the system stuff hardware companies like HP and Intel prefer EE and Physics masters.

http://www.eweek.com/slideshow_viewer/0,1205,l=&s=25996&a=203045&po=25,00.asp?p=y

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

rudy - Doctor "X" — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:24:00 GMT

I agree with Jeff and a great many other in the posting. I definitely have seen very 'few' worth their salt. It is not the people, it is the curriculum - more to the point the lack of it. Things changed on the 'promise' of making things easier - translation: making decisions for us and making us lazy assuming the little things would always be handled correctly. They had the right idea but the wrong execution. You need to build on the basics. You cannot build a house without a foundation. Once the foundation is there the tradesmen in the construction crews can do almost anything. Well here goes my take on 'What it takes'::

Math:

Binary
Octal
Hexadecimal
Conversions between any base - 2, 8, 10, 16 in any combination

Contstructs:

Sequence of statements
If/Then/Else
For Loop
Do While Loop
Do Until Loop
Case statement - do first true case only
Case statement - do every true case

Logic:

Truth Tables
Story problems
And-ing
Or-ing
Exclusive Or-ing

Set Theory

Universes
Domains
Ranges
Sub sets
Super sets
Unions
Intersections

Low Level Language

BAL, Basic Assembler Language (I cut my teeth on Big Blue)
C - not C++ or C#, their father

Storage:

Bits and bytes and words
Records and blocks
Disks - Tracks and Sectors
RAID (0, 1, 5, 1+0)

All of the concepts listed, lest the low level language, can be taught without the need for computers or computer languages of any kind. These basic premises are the foundation for all, yes all, higher level languages <period>

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Jasmine D. Adamson — Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:21:00 GMT

Ouch... sucks to be you. I've worked in places like that, and I don't like it. Things get documented if they get done. I don't spend time writing about stuff I did in the interim, or documenting changes that didn't make it into the final release. If there's a diagram or something that is appropriate in the documentation, I make a DB diagram and PDF it, or I'll use Visio sometimes to make flowcharts and stuff. This is after it's done. Everything else up to that point is done on less-permanent media.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Antares686 — Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:54:00 GMT

I can write/draw/protype it all out on paper but gave into the other crowd when they required us to track all our changes including a comment that we have to file the cocktail napkin we made any notes on just in case.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Jasmine D. Adamson — Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:36:00 GMT

Here's another side point that popped into my head... how much programming can you do WITHOUT using a computer?The answer: almost all of it.The answer for most script kiddies: none.It's funny when the network goes down (or even better, the electricity fails). You can tell who the real programmers are because they are still there, still able to make progress on their projects, and everybody else is off having a beer.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Jasmine D. Adamson — Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:31:00 GMT

Around here, we have "Melissa" - as in "Hey Melissa, what's 378 times 173?" and she gets it right every time. I don't know how she does it, but it's way faster than any machine. I rarely use a calculator, and when I do, it's for something that requires more than the basic functions (usually logs or trig functions). I can do most things in my head, and almost anything if I write it down. Faster to use Melissa, but the point is, I wouldn't be stuck without her.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Bob Hoffman-209065 — Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:42:00 GMT

Just after the dinosaur age ended, we had Ti something's bolted to the table tops in class. They probably cost $500 plus back then. Couldn't use them during tests, classroom only. Almost needed a class just on those things!

Finally they relented and allowed calculators but only "4 bangers" were allowed. You still had to do the work longhand.

Now my son uses a Ti graphing calculator, mandatory in his AP Calculus class in high school. I'm sure that it can do more, better and faster then my old Vic 20 every thought of doing.

Maybe even faster then Vista takes to boot!

But I still use the occasional 4 banger and my trusty HP12C every day.

Steve: Maybe that's a poll question some day- what is your favorite calculator?

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:59:00 GMT

Antares, I agree with that.No calculators in school!

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Antares686 — Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:51:00 GMT

JUst to throw this in, I have a 13 year old who can't stand me when it comes to doing his homework. I won't let him use a calculator and make him show me his work when I check his math. He get's mad and rants about how they can use calculators and all I tell him is "What happens if you are doing your job and someone asks a math question critical to your career or the other guys? If you can do it correctly without a calculator you will be the one they want."

When .NET was being launched I attended one of the events. One of the lecturers made the statement that he would rather hire someone that drags and drops the code into place than to hav some who says that Notepad is a good tool for developing a web page. My arguement with him was that a person who can do it in notepad can do the work and do it better than somone who drags and drops and pays no further attention the the code than that. What about all the stuff left behind when you remove a dropped object, it may not hurt performance but it is a poor practice to not know what you are doing.

Point is I agree the "No Child Left Behind Act" has served to dumb down our expectations of our children and whn they all work as ditch diggers because they couldn't do anything better it i the parents fault first and foremost for not investing the time in their children to help learn the basics.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Bob Hoffman-209065 — Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:43:00 GMT

"a computer does three things, 1> takes data in, 2> tinks about it and 3> gives it back improved."

Back when dinosaurs ruled, I was taught that a computer only did one thing; add.

It just added very fast. Multiplication and division where just repetitive adding problems and subtraction was adding the inverse.

Everything else programmers do is just another way to add.

Now, go build from there.

I believe what we are talking about is the "dummying" down effect from the "no child left behind program" in public schools to the college level. If we can't supply the colleges & universities with quality students with a good basic skill set, then they have to lower the standard and make parents pay more to educate their child what they should have already learned. How much influence do GUI based software companies have on universities curriculum? Why teach the basics when corporate America will retrain them anyway with the desired skill set?

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Michael Comperchio — Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:12:00 GMT

There's been a lot of neat discussion here...but... I recently worked with a young man who was obviously way more educated that i am.... but... we were qa'ing a product trying to meet yet another impossible deadline, with customer breathing down neck, and payment on the line.... yet for every bug fix in the current code I made to get the system OUT THE DOOR this kid would be writing objects, methods, creating new tables, new columns.... he didn't seem to be comprehending the word "PAYCHECK" or the fact that every bit of new code he wrote and old code he re-wrote had to be tested just as thoroughly tested....I left the company then.What I learned from those low-level assembler and 'c' years was something that should (opinion, stinks) be taught to every CS student in cs101.... 'a computer does three things, 1> takes data in, 2> tinks about it and 3> gives it back improved. Any computer. Any processor. Any application! Anything else I have learned over the years about ood, oops, C++, JAVA, UML, ERD's, ad infinitum, was simply to help me make the 3 things happen better. They were not the end in themselves. All those things are designed to make the computer work better/faster/more efficiently, and ultimately to get me PAID!Perhaps a vetting process... something like "ok you think well, you're in, sorry you think too much, you're out"

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

KEN LI — Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:07:00 GMT

there are a lot of junk degree out there. i've seen master degree program would accept microsoft exam certificate as transfer credit. I've seen the MSc people can't do a normalized db schema.

but that only tells you the failure of the program. The formal training in all aspects of CS is still vital, it is a matter of quality control of CS program.

my point is the market and job seekers just have the wrong perception that an industry certificate or training can just replace the CS program. now don't take me wrong, MCSD, MCDBA, MCSE etc could still be valuable in showing the competency of using MS product. but that can't replace the foundation training as in CS degree. there are lots of these "certified professional" who don't know the basic architecture of a PC.

by the way, i am a MCSD, MCDBA and i know what i get from these courses.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

David McFarland — Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:44:00 GMT

"I'm a firm believer in learning hand-assembled machine language where you have to calculate the values of branches both forwards and backwards. I think it aids in developing critical thinking and teaches critical development skills just like learning math before you're allowed to use a calculator does."

0x506C75732C2069742068656C707320796F7520756E6465727374616E6420766172696F7573206E756D626572696E672073797374656D7320616E6420656E636F64696E672E

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Jeff Moden — Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:03:00 GMT

Nope... not kidding. THAT level of intelligence or training was, apparently, missing. And, it's really hard for me to think that maybe I didn't ask the question correctly because I drew those on the white board and said "Please convert those values to base 10". When most of them saw the 14₁₆, they asked me what the 16 meant. Even after I explained that it meant the "14" was in hex, they still had no clue.

Someone else on this thread said something about learning machine language (Assembly helps but not "root" enough)... I'm a firm believer in learning hand-assembled machine language where you have to calculate the values of branches both forwards and backwards. I think it aids in developing critical thinking and teaches critical development skills just like learning math before you're allowed to use a calculator does.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Wesley Middendorff — Wed, 18 Apr 2007 06:35:00 GMT

"You're kidding, right? A person with a Masters degree in CS doesn't know what 2³ or 2⁰ is? They couldn't convert 14₁₆ or 11001010 to base 10? These seem like such basic tasks for a CS person, especially if you have a Masters degree. I want confirmation. "

I totally agree, hell even the undergrads should be able the answer simple questions posed here. I have seen degrees handed to people who take 3 or 4 tries to pass even basic logic corses. When people ask the question "Is Computer Science Dead?", I answer no, but the if the educational institutions don't strengthen their requirements it will be.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Timothy-313907 — Wed, 18 Apr 2007 05:43:00 GMT

You're kidding, right? A person with a Masters degree in CS doesn't know what 2³ or 2⁰ is? They couldn't convert 14₁₆ or 11001010 to base 10? These seem like such basic tasks for a CS person, especially if you have a Masters degree. I want confirmation.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Jeff Moden — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:04:00 GMT

Yes... computer science is dead even if you have a degree in it (not you personnally, just a general observation).

I've interviewed many a person that have Masters degrees in the field and a couple of PHD's to boot... none of the Masters could tell me what 14₁₆ is in Decimal and a couple of them couldn't even tell me what 2³ is. None of them could tell me what 11001010 was even when I split it up as 1100 1010 and none of them could tell me what 2⁰ was.

One of these geniuses advertised himself as a "9 out of 10 in both SQL Server 2000 and Oracle 9i2" but couldn't tell me how to get the current date and time using SQL.

Also interviewed several "GUI Ninja's"... some had degrees in CS and some did not... out of the 7 I interviewed, only one could answer the following question correctly and he was almost a high-school drop out...

You have a user editable form on the screen with a "SAVE" button... the user fills out the form on the screen and clicks the "SAVE" button... if that action takes a bit longer than expected, the user is likely to click the "SAVE" button again. How do YOU, as a GUI developer, keep this impatient user from saving two identical records?

I got answers like "rollback the first transaction and save the second" and "don't worry about it, the DB guys will take care of it", etc. I even had one guy tell me how he'd write code to do a merge in the data base...

Only the almost high-school drop out got it right without any hesitation... disable the "SAVE" button on the first click.

Yeah, I know... lots of the math is "taken care of" by the code... but don't you think that someone with a Master's degree in CS should know what 2³ or even 2⁰ is? Heh... If you really want to see some deer in headlights, ask for an explanation of what an Exclusive OR does or how to determine the number of binary searches it takes to find a unique row in an ordered set.

So, let me rephrase a bit... according to the people I've had to interview, computer science isn't really dead... just the degrees are.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Timothy-313907 — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:58:00 GMT

I'm not a stickler for perfect grammar or anything, but being understandable and clear seems to be a big problem.

Yes, I totally agree! Being an effective worker involves more than simply coding, it also involves effectively conveying your ideas to others. Grammar is becoming really bad for some reason; I guess people are more rushed and rely solely on spell-checkers now. These people really should start proofreading their work for missing words, correctly spelled words that make no sense in the context of their sentence, etc.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Gift Peddie — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:53:00 GMT

(I've heard people saying Relational DB, OOD are just common sense. but how many can really design a good RDB, OO model?)

CS is not dead but sick because of college tenure which leaves people who don't know any current languages or systems in charge. How will that change I don't know Microsoft platform education is not readily available in colleges and it is very expensive compared to Java or C++, I think Microsoft should do more on college campuses especially with Managed C++ and C#.

I also think those old men discourage women, I remember my conversation with a college CS program dean, that I needed 15hours of C++ before I can take PL/SQL. Some of the reasons I love the US pre Google a few Boolean on Yahoo and Uncle Sam's copy of ANSI 1989 free and the rest is history.

I model objects and data by hand as needed, I love data but use objects my current job I don't do any data just objects my last job was design so data was also limited.

Hey Bob I program VCR but then I grow up with CRTs all over the house.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Jasmine D. Adamson — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:42:00 GMT

There is a backlash on that as well. In my last two jobs I've been told that they'd rather close the company than hire another person from India. Some managers are realizing that even though my price tag is higher, I am a better value, because you will get things done right and faster. Some managers will never realize that, but it's their problem. It's not about getting a CS degree... it's about getting any degree, and paying attention to the basic skills you will be learning in college, not the subjects you are studying. College is preparation for working in the upper levels of the adult world. Military is an acceptable alternative. Both things teach basic skills that every adult should have.How to organize yourself, how to research a problem, how to determine what the problem actually is, how to show up on time, meet deadlines, cram when you have to, write proper English... these are the kind of things that I see a lot of youngsters failing on, especially that last one. Once those things are mastered, then it's time to learn math, logic, and specific computer-related topics. High schools are too busy being parents to teach those things, but it used to be pretty hard to graduate without being able to read and write. Nowadays it seems like most college graduates can't even write well. I'm not a stickler for perfect grammar or anything, but being understandable and clear seems to be a big problem.Any leetspeek or IM-text on a resume gets it immediately round-filed.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

kgayda — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:47:00 GMT

Its not dead yet but it is dying. Why, because opportunities are drying up. Bill Gates and all the major tech companies are pushing for unlimited visas for tech workers. This has put a lot of US workers out of jobs not for lack of skill but because most of the visa holders are paid at least $12,000 less than a US worker according to Bureau of Labor Statistics figures. I personally have seen people replaced by less skilled visa holders numerous times just because they were less expensive. I have also seen good CS people replaced by less skilled Americans as well to be fair. No matter, too many companies today want to develop software on the cheap. It is hard to justify the investment in education if you know that you are in competition for jobs in a market that is being flooded with visa holders and that you can be put out of work by lesser skilled individuals for no other reason than cost. It is not difficult to see that the prevailing wage will eventually be depressed to the point where it is not worth the expense of a CS education.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Jasmine D. Adamson — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 12:38:00 GMT

Yes, college is not teaching development skills. They are teaching languages. IMO, the first year of a CS degree should not involve any programming. The reason I'm still around is because I know the basics, and I can apply that in any new language that comes along. The reason I can get a job is because I have a degree. It doesn't matter that my degree is in Biology (liberal arts, even). I find myself applying skills I learned at McDonald's way more often than anything I learned in college. My college education comes in handy in trivia contests.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Antares686 — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:37:00 GMT

Read "After the Gold Rush: Creating a True Profession of Software Engineering" by Steve McConnell.

I think it explains the shortfalls of a CS degree versus what is really needed.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Loner — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 11:28:00 GMT

Computer science is not dead but it is not as popular as 10 years ago in college, thanks to all the big companies outsourced to other countries. The employment outlook affects the students choosing their major which right now is biology and biochemistry. Also in most colleges, they are totally out of touch with the real world. When the company hires a new graduates, you basically have to train them all over again.

In the other thread, a lot more women also exit IT business. The parents do not encourage their daughters to major in CS.

Right now I am working on a project, there are twenty contractors and 5 in house employees. I am the only 'woman'.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

KEN LI — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:58:00 GMT

I can't help posting another one

how many of the top 100 richest business people in the world has a MBA or evan an BBA? knowledge is about learning, of course with self motivation and commitment. if we follow the line of richest business people, then we don't need any kind of university education.

There is nothing wrong with the idea of "self taught" expert. but the danger is that many many people nowadays have the perception that they can self taught to be a good developer. Do you know that since IBM published the rate of failure in software projects in the industry in the 80's, there is not much a improvement as the statistic shows in this 21th century.

Look back these 25 years, the fundamental concepts and technology actually haven't changed much. what are the invention in the past 10 years, 5 years?

We need to brush up the CS training, we need people to do research and promote innovation. otherwise, the computing industry will soon be controlled by package tools/software. People will be trained to program plugins, packaged component only.

ken.

p.s. I've heard people saying Relational DB, OOD are just common sense. but how many can really design a good RDB, OO model?

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Bob Hoffman-209065 — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:45:00 GMT

If you are going to require a programming language, then it should be Fortran.

Punching cards will either make you a better programmer by getting more work out of each instruction or become a better typist.

CS is not dead.

We will still need coffee pots that need programming.

Or VCR's

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Jasmine D. Adamson — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:33:00 GMT

Are you off your prozac or something? What's with the depressing topics lately?Computer science will not die, unless people let it. As long as folks like me are out here, I think we will continue to push the science to its limit, and that requires further study. If kids today aren't interested in it, I don't really care. More money for me later on.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Rod at work — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:32:00 GMT

I don't think that computer science degrees are dead, but I do think they are "sick" (to extend the metaphor). I think most people entering college today are sensitive to their employment opportunities after college. A few years ago there was a huge rush to outsource IT to off-shore sites/countries. If I were an American college freshman today, it would seriously not consider getting a degree in CS, because I would be very concerned that there wouldn't be a job for me when I graduated.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

David McFarland — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:14:00 GMT

It's not dead, but it's not absolutely vital, if, and it's a big if, the person actually loves doing this stuff. Some of the best I've dealt with are self-taught, and while there are hurdles for those types in the beginning, most soon realize that a lot of the best practices that they didn't teach themselves actually have a true benefit, at which point they adopt them. Things like strong typing, explicit conversions, self-documenting code, version control, etc., aren't necessarily important initially to a self-taught developer, but after dealing with the repercussions of blowing those things off a few times, the good ones come around very fast.

I also agree with the above posters who noted that learning a machine language (or assembly), on any processor for that matter, can help you greatly in many small ways in the future, whether self-taught or through formal training. I haven't coded in anything that low level in decades, but I find that the understanding of what's going on behind the scenes helps me frequently understand new concepts or issues more quickly.

Edit: I see bnordberg made some of the same comments as I did. Simulposts are fun.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

bnordberg — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:08:00 GMT

I don't think its dead, but its unnecessary. My degrees are in Forest Management. During grad school I spent more time making databases, writing FORTRAN, building COBOL reports and sysadmin duties than any of my peers getting CIS degrees. I think college gives you the pieces to think critically and build a framework (as well as life lessons about sticking to it till its done). As long as you are able to learn and apply developmental lessons from college it really doesn't matter if you degree is in sociology or CS.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

KEN LI — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:36:00 GMT

This is exactly the trouble that i've observed in the last 10 years. lots of so called developers are not from formal training which for my opinion must include those CS subjects such as logic, algorithm, programming language, basic computing maths.

too bad, the market demand for programmers badly, and the managers are looking for tool specific skill set, such as vb.net c#, asp.net. but not demanding for good problem solver. I've seen university graduates who cannot program with vb but have very good logic and design. it takes them a few weeks to learn and program vb. on the other hand, those graduate with 2 years diploma or even some 6 month cram course (MCSD), they can program in vb but with very bad logic and even cannot use the if then else effectively.

I guess the training in CS is very valuable, one thing that i'd comment on is that some professor stand very strong on using the C,C++ or Java, linux. and try to exclude the microsoft tools. That is something should be changed, the tools in market demand should be used so that the university graduate will have the adv edge.

finally, an example... CS training is to train the thinker designer of a table, those "instant" developer training is to train not even a carpenter but a labor who can use very advanced new tool to build a table. these skilled labor may not necessary understand why a table has 4 legs.

rgds

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Miles Neale — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:10:00 GMT

Computer Science isn't dead, it isn't even sick. It is growing and expanding and finding new areas to invade. With Gates and others trying to put more and more computer technology in everything from phones to pets, from TV to your coffee machine, and probably soon to be in your food and drink, the trend to automate will continue. The field will expand.

News? Over 30 years back we were told that computer programming would soon be solved and there would be no need for programmers. The promise and the silver bullet is not here yet and are not in development. We have not been put out of business yet and no one will do it soon.

Let me reduce this to a little pseudocode:

Ai = Pi + N + Sky;

string silverBullet = "";

selfDevelopingProgram stupidIdea = new Wild.eyed.dream();

self.Maintaining.System.Code bogus = old wishful.thinking.gone.to(seed);

Have a great day. This is kind of fun.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Michael Comperchio — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 08:02:00 GMT

Probably Not. I have to agree with the need to learn low-level coding. I got into this game with a two year degree from a state tech college. At the time they were churning out business programmers to go into the IBM 360/370 world. We took business type courses (lot's of accounting and managerial courses). BUT.... although we learned cobol,rpg and fortran as programming courses there was also a REQUIREMENT for THREE semesters of 360/370 assembler. That particular requirement taught me how computers work internally...then 15 + years of primarily c coding...these are the things that make it possible today for it to be 'just a matter of syntax'. And... I am of the opinion (all have one, all stink) that all the logic courses in the world can't teach someone to 'be' logical. That's something that we're born with (left brain/right brain stuff!). I can't draw a stick figure, but i seem able to look at any mess and see the process in it. This makes me (opinion again) a pretty good analyst, which is the ability that really makes a good computer professional. I'm doing VB.NET stuff now (and, admittedly, getting more coding done quicker than in the 'C' days), but underneath all the CLR, Java Runtime, whatever, there's still a computer with 1's and 0's!Michael Comperchiomcmprch@yahoo.com

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Timothy-313907 — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:08:00 GMT

I don't think CS is dead as a major, I do think since the dotcom bubble burst years ago the field doesn't attract as many people since the crazy megabucks aren't here anymore. When I was a student 10 years ago I knew a few people who admitted the only reason they were in the major was to make money. They didn't like being in the computer lab late at night like the rest of us, found programming dull and boring, etc. Once these people realize the kind of work involved with computer science they eventually bolt.

I work at a university and I don't notice any decrease in the number of people in the major. There are still plenty of programming jobs around my area that pay quite well too. Maybe the situation's different for DBAs and system administrators though, I only focus on programming jobs.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

panesofglass — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:04:00 GMT

This is a good question and an interesting discussion, but I think it might possibly be too limited in scope. If you step back and look at all fields, it seems there is a reduction in the number of thinkers in any field. Most people today appear to be fine with just learning how to do something so that they get the job done. Very few people care anymore about doing something the best or most efficient way. So now we have employers who have this mindset who hire staff with the same mindset.

To further this problem, educators find it difficult to identify objective ways of testing the ability to think through problems. For the most part, our educational system is built around providing a correct answer by following the correct method and thought pattern. This doesn't really teach anyone how to think, so instead of really learning how to think through problems, students are learning how to think through the problem they need to answer for the class they are in and stop there.

So until employers start caring and looking for people who think well and educators figure out ways to teach their students to think through problems and not just recite previously learned thoughts, we will continue to see degree programs, including computer science appear to take a downward turn.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

P Jones — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 03:00:00 GMT

I recently had a discussion with my son who was going through doubts about his degree course (Entertainment Technology) and felt it did not relate to the real world. I explained that degree courses are to show your ability to learn the theory and are a necessary ticket to the world of practical work.

My own computer science course some thirty years ago fitted this model with focus on such gems as Turing machines, AI and simulation, none of which I have directly used again. However the indirect benefits are there every day - an ability to switch between languages readily and design and develop using basic concepts amongst others.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Paul. — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 02:19:00 GMT

Computer Science isn't dead, it just needs to evolve - like the rest of the programming world has already.

At university, I was taught the theory on how to develop software, with many different languages used purely as examples. In my opinion, that's the way we should be going.