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RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Tony Oliver — Wed, 14 Feb 2007 03:54:00 GMT

My wife and myself have been in the IT industry since the early 1970's. I have noticed a decline in the number of women in the younger age groups. Certainly women are discriminated against but (unfortunately) that is true in most professions. My son is currenty doing IT at university and older daughter said she would never consider it (and is doing medicine). The main factor in their decisions was the high school experience where males were encouraged in the IT courses and females discouraged. Also IT has moved from the Science facility (were women feel more comfortable) to Engineering - a well know male domain.

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:45:00 GMT

Great editorial and thanks to Kathi for writing it.I have to say that I've thought women were increasing in IT. It seems every time I go to a conference, there are more and more women, though still the minority by far.I'm not sure why the numbers are decreasing, though the lack of a boom in IT may mean that more women are going to less stressful careers. Not to stereotype, but somewhere like HR typically has more stable and regular hours without the crazy on call situations we see in IT.I'd like to think that some day we'll see a great balance in any industry where the mix of races and genders tends to mirror that which exist in society.

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Gift Peddie — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:56:00 GMT

If genetics was an issue a French man would have translated Newton’s Principia mathematica in the eighteenth century but Newton was actually translated and corrected by Émilie du Châtelet. The French still use her version of that important book.

I do software because it is fun, exiting and easy, if not for all of the above the atmosphere would have made me leave. I still think early education and improved work environment will go a long way. Just my simple minded opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89milie_du_Ch%C3%A2telet

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Stephanie J Brown — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:48:00 GMT

As a woman in IT since the 80's, I can confirm that there is a lot of sexism, and it does impact the paycheck as well as the work you are assigned and the recognition you get. (My current company is the first exception to that rule of IT, which is one of the reasons I stay here!)

We're even seeing some of that sexism in this thread, even beyond the "females are more nurturing" (as though that had anything to do with programming talent or desire for a high-tech career). And it wasn't just men who created computers and computing languages, although as usual they get the credit. Go back and find out who wrote COBOL, the main business programming language for the last five decades. I believe Commodore Grace was a WOMAN (and I can confirm this because I saw her speak prior to her death). The original programmers were mostly women, because that's who knew how to type! Go check out the history of computers - you may learn or re-learn some interesting facts about gender roles in early IT.

There are a huge number of assumptions related to IT that just are not true. I don't think of myself as a "geek", nor do other people call me one. I am an intelligent, well-read woman who enjoys working on her own cars and motorcycles - so some days I'm typing code with bandaides on my knuckles! Give up the stereotypes, people. Anyone with the skills can suceed in IT. But young girls are not encourage, and in fact are still actively DIScouraged from taking on careers (or hobbies) in fields that are seen as male-oriented. And a discouraged person will not perform well (yes, that's a pun!)

Is any of this a reason that the numbers of women in IT are dropping? Possibly, but until someone does a real study that asks women why they are leaving, or not entering the field, we won't know for sure what is driving it. One of the reasons I chose IT as a career path was because it was a relatively new arena, with lots of growth potential. Biopharm and Biogenetics are the next big up-and-comers, so it's not surprising that young people are more interested in those as careers. But the drop in percentages of women entering IT indicates to me that there is probably more than one driver for the drop in numbers. (And BTW, numbers ARE important - they are a way to measure what we experience.)

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Melville — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:29:00 GMT

By genetics I wasn't making a sweeping generalisation, far from it.

From the 16 years I have worked in IT the people most suited to IT are geeks. I think that some people are predisposed to become geeks (anyone else remember doing the maths for other kids at Primary in your head?) and some aren't. There are lots of geeky professions - and IT is one of them.

And IT employers like younger geeks because they are often unattached and prepared to do masses of free work.

It just so happens, from my experience, that the majority of geeks are male.

Unless IT changes to be less geek-friendly then it won't attract enough non-geeks; and regardless of gender that is a big issue.

You don't have to be a geek to work in IT; but it helps!

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Xtina Shaolin — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:25:00 GMT

It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the culture or sexism or the fact that being the only woman working in large groups of men really has some distinct downsides, particularly if you're unfortunate enough to be young/pretty.Bless you, Grasshopper, for saying what was in my head for me.I've been in IT for a while now, and often it's a combination of rampant sexism and a lack of understanding that life > work that keeps me from going any further with it.

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Loner — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:11:00 GMT

Besides me, it seemed all the women replied on this thread love their jobs and would encourage their children to major in computer science.

So why did the data show women leaving IT?

I was good at Math too when I was at high school so I chose IT when I went to college. I started as COBOL programmer, then database developer in both Oracle and SQL Server, now I work as data warehouse developer. I love programming but it is the IT or company culture that makes me sick.

Maybe it was my bad luck that I never had a good job or good boss, I got burnt at all my job. I got bullied at one of my job by a male DBA and his brother. No one took me serious when I was the only woman in the group. I would not complain if all the male developers were talented. But I had to work twice as hard to show my skills to the management just to compare with the average or even low skill male developers. Still the company would value them more.

Although money is not everything, but I am still angry why man earn more than woman at the same position.

At my company, all the upper management of IT are all men. That's it, I am going to quit today !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Sarah Dutkiewicz — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:18:00 GMT

That's awesome to hear about your friend! I'm a female geek and proud of it I'd love to go back for my masters in Software Engineering (great program nearby for it), but I need to convince my husband that we can handle it if I go back to school. From what everyone tells me, my love of computers started when one of my uncles let me (back when I was like 2 or 3, I think) sit with him while he was on his computer. I don't remember that but I do remember getting excited about them later on and really picking up programming as if it were something natural to me.

While in high school, I picked up more skills and looked into my future in computing. (So much for my original dream of becoming a clarinetist in the Cleveland Orchestra!) I knew that the computing industry would be male-dominated and definitely a challenge. However, I accepted that and didn't let it intimidate me. To this day, I do what I do because I love it and I don't let the naysayers who think females don't belong in computing bother me - they don't know what they're talking about.

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

rudy - Doctor "X" — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:44:00 GMT

Based on watching the trend for 20+ years, of everything, I feel the most obvious reasons are not so obvious - free choice in your occupation and observation of what that occupation impacts. I say this becaus I have 3 daughters all in HS presently. Each excels at computers but has opted not to go into IT in any way shape or form based on these 2 criteria.

The first point, free choice, is fueled by the information age in providing information about different career options available and where they will lead and your quality of life. They have grown up in the infomation age and are using it to their advantage.

Now a bit about the second point. They have watched myself and friends and been a part of our lives and seen the type of comittment needed at times. There is usually a chorus in unison of "that sucks" quite often. So, they know what it is about almost first hand. This is learning by the observation of others.

We all have to remember that "The only constant in life is change".

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Cleverann — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:19:00 GMT

I totally agree with Kathi's assesment! We need middle school and high school courses in programming to enhance our science, math, and business curriculums. I believe our children have become 'immune' and see computers as a means to an end. Much like seeing a plane or rocket launch - they take the technology for granted. Combine that immunity with the instant rewards of video games and consumerism; few kids have the patience nor see the advantage of learning what's under the covers. We can only generate new excitment with today's adolescents if we focus on the latest technologies in the classroom.

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

LynnDrew — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 08:04:00 GMT

Go Girl! My experience is similar ... great with math, science and spacial reasoning. I've been in the computer industry since 1979 (mag card units) and have thoroughly enjoyed all aspects of technology. My career has spanned everything from being a Word Perfect Macro Queen to developing legal billing programs to data conversion to integration specialist to DBA, database developer and data warehousing architect. I even had my own consulting business for several years.

One of the things I like most about computer technology is that it is always changing ... no room for boredom here as long as you are curious and have a desire to learn.

The issue with women in technology may very well be the guidance counselors within the school systems directing them to typically more "womenly" careers. I do wish there were more women in technology ... it would be nice to see more of them at the User Group meetings!

My son graduated from Penn State with an Engineering Science degree and got his master's from MIT. He has been an executive at Cisco and now works in management at Google. Needless to say my IT career has also influenced him. If he had been a daughter I would have encouraged her to follow the same path.

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Loner — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:56:00 GMT

I work in IT for 20 years. Being a woman in the IT field, I definitely can feel the discrimination. First thing about salary, it does not matter I can do a good job or even a better job than my male co-workers, their salary are higher. (Don't argue with me, I check that with my friends at HR, even it is confidential, my friends will not say how much those people earn but agree the company pay more to the man developers even my experience and skill is high than them.)

Second, in all the companies I worked for, in the IT department it always consisted more men than women, about 7 to 3 ratio. In 4 companies, I was the only female. When promotion times came, it did not matter if I did a good job or not, my name was always at the bottom. Especially when my son was an infant, that company told me that was the reason they could not promote me because I was not as flexible as the other developers because I had to leave work at 5 to pick up my son at daycare.

IT is very competitive, the technology changes all the time. Men may have all the time to study the new technology, but for me when I get home, I start my second job as the maid (cooking, cleaning...) I try to keep up and try to read a lot of books, but by 10:30pm, I am dead tired after working 2 jobs.

This is my experiences.

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Kathi Kellenberger — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:51:00 GMT

Just for the record, I consider myself a geek and am proud of it. Who really knows what leads someone to be a programmer or a DBA or a pet groomer or whatever? I always enjoyed working math problems as a kid. In grade school, I would usually complete every problem in the textbook by the end of Christmas vacation. I enjoy figuring things out, and I think that led me to computers.

I do know that I was very unhappy in my previous career and love being a DBA. I also enjoy working with mostly men and have always received fair treatment.

One interesting note about my family: I am the oldest of seven children. My three brothers and I are all in IT. My three sisters and my daughter are not in IT, but are the unofficial help-desks for their offices. They are very good at figuring things out on computers but are not interested in making a career of them.

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Lynda Rab — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:44:00 GMT

Well I am not tired of having this discussion and since I know my perspective and opinions on the subject has changed a lot throughout my career I think it is important to keep the discussion going......

But that aside... Great editorial Kathy! You bring up a lot of great points.

I agree that "family responsibilities and work/life balance may play a big role in keeping women from considering IT or leaving IT once they are there". When I was in my early 20's I was as gung ho as anyone (male or female), eager to learn as much as possible and make my way up the IT ladder. And I did just that. I decided to go the technical route and made my way up to a senior DBA position... (which at the time to me was the top of the heap! I was making great money, loved my job, loved solving technical issues, loved learning new things... didn't mind waking up every few days when the page went off at 2:00am... ) In my thirties... my priorities definately started to change... I still enjoyed my career, but found it to be a bit of a grind... and less challenging. Life balance and starting a family became much more of a priority. I also found the part of my career that I enjoyed most was working with the clients. In my current job the DBAs do not have that much face to face with the clients and tend to work mainly with the developers... A few years ago I switched to Data Warehousing and am enjoying that a lot more.... I work mainly with the clients, do a lot of analysis, data modelling and coding... I haven't left IT... but what influenced my career satisfaction has definately changed. If I had started having children earlier, that change probably would have come earlier too...

lynda

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Renee-200489 — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:44:00 GMT

I disagree 100 percent that IT is a turn off to women because of "genetics". I know MANY successful woman from chemists to CPAs. Comments like that are truly ignorant.

I think one of the biggest challenges I've faced as a woman working in IT is finding a company that understands the need for balance between work and home. I'll work the extra hours when the need arises (and I have enough experience to know when it really is necessary) otherwise when the work day is done I have family needs to fulfill. Of all the DBA jobs I've had the best ones have been those with flexible work hours and bosses that understand what family is.

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Loner — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:41:00 GMT

I have a teenage son and a lot of my friends have teenage children ready to go to college, 9 out of 10 will not take computer science as major. In 1995, I remembered a lot of students majoring in computer science. I can think of two reasons why today kids do no not want to major in computer science.

First, the parents discourage them. In year 2000 after the dot.com burst, most of the computer technical people lost their jobs. Some even had to change career. A lot big companies start outsourcing computer work to other countries. So most the parents advise kids to take biochemical, pharmacy, biology or any other medical fields. They think it has more future and at least those fields cannot outsource to other country. When you are sick, you definitely will not fly to India to see a doctor, will you?

Second, my son is 11 grade. He is taking JAVA programming at school. He wrote all his papers using microsoft word at 6th grade. He learnt microsoft office, photoshop, macromedia, built his web website all on his own. Recently he built his own computer. So he said he would not major in computer science in college, it is his hobby. He wants to major something more "challenging". Most of his friends already know how to program in C#, Java, web programming without going to college. My son joined the robotic team, the kids already knew how to write C program to make the robot to work. Why bothers to major in computer sience ? Just liked my son, they all want to major in more challenging fields - becoming a doctor, majoring in chemical engineering, EE, stem cell research.....As they say, those fields bring a brighter future.

My 2 cents.

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

cmoliver — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:36:00 GMT

Here we go again.Inevitably this discussion comes up. Inevitably the answer is that women just aren't fit for IT, because they're sweet, mothering types that can't hack the competitive industry or the hours or the work. It must be the nature of the work and the genetic/socialized nature of women.It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the culture or sexism or the fact that being the only woman working in large groups of men really has some distinct downsides, particularly if you're unfortunate enough to be young/pretty.I know. I've been doing it for my entire career.I'm really, really, really tired of constantly having this discussion, so I'll just post a link to a document that was developed by a group that's dedicated in encouraging more women in technology. This document was written with the feedback of many women that are currently in IT positions. Some are Linux kernel developers, many are authors, many are network and security professionals and DBAs, many do helpdesk. But most importantly, the words in the HOWTO reflect the experiences of *many* women, not just a few random bad encounters. HOWTO Encourage Women in LinuxBracing myself for the flames...

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Scott D. Smith — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:33:00 GMT

I work with a female programmer who is married...she thinks of herself as having many traits more commonly found in men, such as an obsession with computer games, etc. But she still very different from men who program. She insists on spending at least 15 to 30 minutes a day talking...just about anything. She told me that, otherwise, programming is just too dehumanizing and technologically-overfocused. This focus, which is a male trait, is something that doesn't bother me, but I enjoy the talks. It helps me relax and "be myself" for a change.

We studied the trend of women in IT back in the 80s when I was in college, and the prediction was that by the year 2004, there would be 20-30% women in the field (it was 5% at the time). I think the actual percentage in 2007 (in America) is between 10% and 15%...this is progress and we should welcome it.

Men invented computers, programming languages, and set up the IT departments (dysfunctional as they may be) that employ computer programmers. It is not unsurprising that women feel unwelcome and out of place in these environments. Even the woman who manages the network engineering dept. where I work tends to be unusually focused and logical. I think the industry draws these kinds of people to it. As I grow older and become more well rounded as a human being, I find myself increasingly out of place with the people around me. I have been told that IT values computer professionals who have people skills and are team players, and they do. But such people in IT are rare. People with such skills stay away from IT like it was the plague...they don't like working with people who lack the normal human graces.

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Kenneth A. Cucullu — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 06:30:00 GMT

I think Melville is on to something. I believe by nature, women are more nurturing and this is a very good thing for our society. I believe we are seeing a major cultural shift. I think many women have experienced the business rat race up close and personal and are repulsed by it. I believe many of them are choosing to return home and start families. My wife and I tried switching roles one year (when our children were 1 & 2 years old) she went to work and I stayed at home with the kids. My children were extatic when we decided this was not working and Mommy came home. That is not to say that there are no families in which this is not a good fit, however, I think those families are the exception and not the rule.

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Andy Warren — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 06:20:00 GMT

Nice comments Kathi!

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Melville — Tue, 13 Feb 2007 03:51:00 GMT

Perhaps it's a genetic thing. Perhaps the slightly soul-less nature of IT is off-putting for many women.

Many women seem more comfortable in HR, teaching or marketing than men; with men happier in IT and accounting.

Could it just be as simple as the Mars/Venus deal - women being attracted by people professions and men being drawn to machines and numbers and cold hard facts?

I'll get my coat.

RE: Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Michael-284794 — Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:36:00 GMT

wrt the labelling issue - a good friend of mine has just finished her Honours degree in CompSci and is now going into Masters. She is very regularly labelled a geek, but most often by herself! She revels in the appellation, but that's certainly not a common reaction, and it is certainly a very valid concern for girls who are bothered by the label...

Technology: Where have all the women gone?

Kathi Kellenberger — Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:30:00 GMT

Steve Jones recently sent me a link to this article "The Vanishing IT Woman--System i Women Respond" and wondered what I thought about it. The article was written in response to recent research showing an alarming decrease in the number of women in information technology careers.

I have to admit that I am not a big proponent of having a certain number of women working in any particular field. I believe that anyone with the talent and desire to work in technology should be encouraged to do so, regardless of gender. But a quote in the article from Nate Viall of Nate Viall & Associates, a recruiting and industry research firm, really made me sit up and take notice: “in the late 1990s, women made up 40 percent of application developers with less than three years of experience. Today, that number is 10 percent.” Viall also mentioned a surprising decline in female computer science majors during the same time period. I think that 40 percent sounds curiously high. I suspect that some people were recruited into programming during the Y2K and dot com boom days who really didn’t belong there. But maybe there is something to this; maybe women who have the necessary talent are choosing other careers, and IT is the worse off for it.

The article considers many possible reasons for this trend. For example, family responsibilities and work/life balance may play a big role in keeping women from considering IT or leaving IT once they are there. Long hours spent at work during project crunch times can take its toll on family life. My previous career was much more family friendly than the DBA job I have now. In fact, that field, pharmacy has seen the number of women increase substantially over the past 25 years or so in the US. Other fields, such as dentistry and law may also be more attractive to women than IT.

In my opinion, interest in computers at the high school and college levels is just not there. Many of the current students have grown up with computers in their homes and in the classroom. I haven’t done a study, of course, but most of the kids I talk to think of computers as a tool, and they aren’t interested in learning how computers work or in making a career focused on them. I think of my car that way. I don’t care how it works and don’t want to be a mechanic or a race car driver. I just want my car to get me where I need to go. There also seems to be a real fear of being labeled a "nerd" or "geek," especially by the girls. Television and movies encourage these sterotypes.

I think that men will probably always outnumber women in IT, and I don’t really believe that is necessarily bad. Should we be concerned about numbers? I’m not really sure, and, personally, I don’t care about the numbers. I would like to see children exposed to programming during the middle-school and high school years so that those boys and girls with the innate talent will think about choosing technology careers. The most important things to me is that anyone who wants to work in IT should have that opportunity.

Kathi Kellenberger