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RE: Those Who Can, Do

quackhandle1975 — Tue, 05 Feb 2013 14:22:12 GMT

After 10 years contracting/consulting I was hearing about qualified techies (inc DBA's) missing out on contracts because they didn't have the correct "buzzwords" on their CV/resume, yes a fault of poor agencies but that's the game they play.Now myself I have never felt the need for certification, my experience/references prove I can do the job but I took the MCITP 2008 DBA and passed it back in December, yes it expires later this year but I actually enjoyed studying for it, still hate exams with a passion! Learned some new features and now can put MCITP on the CV, and business card. If it helps, great, if not no great shakes. Might even do the 70-433 one before July.[i][b]qh[/b][/i]

RE: Those Who Can, Do

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Wed, 02 Jan 2013 11:46:34 GMT

The MCM right now only requires the knowledge exam and the lab exam. $2500 if you pass the first try. I've seen so many people pass the knowledge exam on the first try, if you are experienced, you can do that.The lab exam still seems to trip up lots of people the first time.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

Lynn Pettis — Mon, 24 Dec 2012 00:02:39 GMT

[quote][b]TravisDBA (12/21/2012)[/b][hr]On the MCM, you are forgetting about one big thing. The cost:•Nonrefundable program application fee: $125•Program fee: $18,500 (three-week program in Redmond, WA)•Non-lab exam retakes: $250 (Exam 88-970)•Lab exam retakes: $1,500 (Exam 88-971)Not to mention the 40-50% fail rate as well. Now you tell me if this is not about making money for Microsoft? :-D[/quote]The three weeks in Redmond isn't true for the MCM for SQL Server.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

Arjen Krap — Sun, 23 Dec 2012 03:09:41 GMT

[quote][b]TravisDBA (12/21/2012)[/b][hr]Now you tell me if this is not about making money for Microsoft? :-D[/quote]I won't be surprised if they barely break even on this. Seriously.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

TravisDBA — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 08:00:34 GMT

On the MCM, you are forgetting about one big thing. The cost:•Nonrefundable program application fee: $125•Program fee: $18,500 (three-week program in Redmond, WA)•Non-lab exam retakes: $250 (Exam 88-970)•Lab exam retakes: $1,500 (Exam 88-971)Not to mention the 40-50% fail rate as well. Now you tell me if this is not about making money for Microsoft? :-D

RE: Those Who Can, Do

jasona.work — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 07:56:09 GMT

(Disclaimer: I have a handful of MS certs)I think that the whole certification thing really does boil down to a way for hiring managers to try to gain a quick yardstick of someones skills. A GSquared put it in his comment about looking at the job requirements on Monster.com and the like: [quote]You probably won't find a single one that has something like, "5 years experience or equivalent education".[/quote]Does my having the certs mean I know the stuff inside and out? Oh H**L no! But that's also something a hiring manager can use. If they get two prospective hires, both with the same certs, both with equivalent experience, but one has the attitude of "I'm certified and I know ALL" and the other "I'm certified but there are things I'm not familiar with, and things I don't know," which do you think would be the better hire? Me, I'd say go with the person who acknowledges there are things they don't know.It seems to me, that the exams (with one exception) for the certs don't go for in-depth, it's more a "cover the basics of everything." The exception would be the MCM, which based on what I've read, goes in-depth.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

GSquared — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 07:03:44 GMT

If you want to know what "trumps" what, take a look at a few dozen job postings on Monster or some such.You'll find a few that require experience and education (5 years experience, Bachelor's degree in related field required).You'll find a lot that have things like, "Bachelor's degree and 2 years, or equivalent experience".You probably won't find a single one that has something like, "5 years experience or equivalent education".That really says it all.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

cjones 47715 — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 06:26:43 GMT

The same can be said about getting a college degree. I've worked my way up in IT by teaching myself and having a love for technology. It started out in 1992 building computers, something which was far more complicated with out all the pnp devices. I joined the Air Force and got out because I wanted to start a career in computers. As a veteran I qualified for a training course in A+ and Net+. A+ was a joke, but it was free. Sure, I felt like I could have taught the class, but getting it was still an accomplishment. The Net+ class was an eye opener. I instantly fell in love with networking. I opened a new horizon for me and a new level of understanding beyond just the PC. After working some temp jobs, landing a job at Akamai, and then getting laid off in 2001 (pop), I started working as a pc tech at a small computer shop. This shop also did small business consulting. Within two years I was doing Network Administration, as much as I could teach myself (hours of setting up servers and services at home) and mimicking what I'd seen when working at Akamai. I was pretty successful and decided to back up my experiences with certifications and got my MCSE. I would say I was familiar with 80% of the content, but I learned a lot as well and it only made me a better Network Admin. After 5 years of Network Administration, I decided to go back to school to learn software development. 3 years later as I completed my degree, a development job opened at work and I landed the job. It's been several years since...I would definitely say the MCSE course prepared me more for Network Administration than my bachelors degree did for software development. We are a .Net shop and I've often considered working on some Microsoft Certs just to expand my knowledge of the platform. [b]At the end of the day, it really comes down to the person.[/b] If someone has no experience and just takes the test, then I would pound them in an interview to see if they really grasped the content. If someone came to me for a development job and barely graduated school with no experience, I wouldn't consider anything but an entry level position for them.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

Dalkeith — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 02:18:29 GMT

I generally welcome formal learning but I am cautious about individuals trophy hunting certification. I'm also wary of peoples cvs there is a tendency for people to exagerate both experience and qualifications I can see why an individual would use certification as a filter. I would do the same in a field I had little knowledge of.Ultimately though I would seek to get people into employment on contract to see what they are like before offering more permanence. That way takes some of the guesswork away and hopefully I'll find the diamonds in the rough once they are through the door.Interestingly on a forum like this I would rarely consider asking individuals their qualifications preferring to look at the quality of their technical responses with reference to the actual things which they have been working on. It should be noted that there is a trend for HR types and non HR types to use social networks (Linkedin , probably here and stack overflow) to target competent individuals (makes sense to me). I'm also quite cautious of companies that do all of their hiring through arms length HR organisations - Choosing your staff is one of the most important things and I think section managers should be completely focused on getting the right people.I am quite disappointed when I read someone's cv and the reality is totally different. The usual thing is for some younger folk to fabricate their hobbies. Not sure exactly why. I once was eager to talk to a lad that had said he played the fiddle and windsurfed. Turned out he'd given up the fiddle ten years ago and tried windsurfing once on a summer holiday.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

SQLRNNR — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 21:17:55 GMT

[quote][b]KWymore (12/19/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Steve Jones - SSC Editor (12/19/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Chris Metzger (12/19/2012)[/b][hr]You know I wish more managers\executives thought this way. It makes no sense to emphasize the cert but not the real-world experience - sometimes some of us are too busy WORKING and doing our jobs, with our knowledge and skillset we've gained over many years, to take a test just to show we have a cert.[/quote]I agree, though I think often it's that they have no good way to judge people and this gives them something concrete.[/quote]I agree. Managers and recruiters like hard facts. Having a certification shows proof that they have studied the technology. It shows that they dedicated themselves to a task and succeeded. However, it does not prove retention of the information or the ability to apply it to real world scenarios. If the interview involves a technical questionnaire, then this will often give a better representation of the interviewee's knowledge depending on the questions. As long as the questions are relevant to the job at hand that is. Certifications are sort of like college degrees. Just because you have one, it doesn't mean that you are truly more qualified to do the job than someone who only has experience. I, like most, have worked with a number of over-certified, over-educated individuals who seemed less competent than expected.[/quote]I agree on the college degree thing.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

KWymore — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 20:35:22 GMT

[quote][b]Steve Jones - SSC Editor (12/19/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Chris Metzger (12/19/2012)[/b][hr]You know I wish more managers\executives thought this way. It makes no sense to emphasize the cert but not the real-world experience - sometimes some of us are too busy WORKING and doing our jobs, with our knowledge and skillset we've gained over many years, to take a test just to show we have a cert.[/quote]I agree, though I think often it's that they have no good way to judge people and this gives them something concrete.[/quote]I agree. Managers and recruiters like hard facts. Having a certification shows proof that they have studied the technology. It shows that they dedicated themselves to a task and succeeded. However, it does not prove retention of the information or the ability to apply it to real world scenarios. If the interview involves a technical questionnaire, then this will often give a better representation of the interviewee's knowledge depending on the questions. As long as the questions are relevant to the job at hand that is. Certifications are sort of like college degrees. Just because you have one, it doesn't mean that you are truly more qualified to do the job than someone who only has experience. I, like most, have worked with a number of over-certified, over-educated individuals who seemed less competent than expected.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

davoscollective — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 16:50:17 GMT

This is an eternal debate. My own experience is that fresh out of uni with no work experience, I thought I was awesome but no-one would hire me because most were looking for 2 years experience. I swallowed my pride and worked a range of crappy jobs for a couple of years until I got a job in my field at the time (chemistry). That suggests experience wins over qualifications but now that I have both I think that trumps either/or. The laboratory industry I used to work in hired people with short courses or even fresh out of high school, but those people were structurally limited in how far they could progress. Operating laboratory instruments didn't require a degree, but to do advanced analysis of results requires a fair amount of knowledge of theory, including organic chemistry, statistics & calculus. In Australia you are also required to be qualified before you can achieve certification as a signatory to the quality of drinking water or the safety of soil in schools. i.e. you can be unqualified to do most of the work, but you aren't allowed to do the double-checking. That doesn't prove that education or certification is vital, merely that it's compulsory. I still have the opinion that I would prefer someone who also has in-depth knowledge of the potential complex chemical interactions that occur within drinking water beyond their day to day lab experience. The body of knowledge built up in the field mainly since the 1920's is not something you will learn on the job. Conversely if you don't have practical experience then I wouldn't trust you in the lab. Technique is hard to learn from a book or in class, it's better learnt though a master/apprentice style process.Stepping back from that specific field, regardless of your opinion and principles, an HR/Recruiter without expertise in the recruitee's field will choose the person with both experience and qualification. (disclaimer - I now manage BI & Analytics at a very large recruitment company). People often bring up examples like Richard Branson as proof that you don't need education to be successful, but that's mainly because stories of "qualified person becomes successful" are common, pretty boring and don't appeal to people looking for a reason to avoid studying. No doubt he also works very hard.TL;DROrder of hiring preference:Someone with bothSomeone with experienceSomeone with qualification

RE: Those Who Can, Do

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 14:09:26 GMT

[quote][b]Chris Metzger (12/19/2012)[/b][hr]You know I wish more managers\executives thought this way. It makes no sense to emphasize the cert but not the real-world experience - sometimes some of us are too busy WORKING and doing our jobs, with our knowledge and skillset we've gained over many years, to take a test just to show we have a cert.[/quote]I agree, though I think often it's that they have no good way to judge people and this gives them something concrete.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

Chris Metzger — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 12:10:34 GMT

You know I wish more managers\executives thought this way. It makes no sense to emphasize the cert but not the real-world experience - sometimes some of us are too busy WORKING and doing our jobs, with our knowledge and skillset we've gained over many years, to take a test just to show we have a cert.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

Gary Varga — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:58:27 GMT

In 1999 I decided that I wanted to improve my knowledge through structured learning i.e. through lessons not "playing" with technology. As I was fairly committed to the idea and would have to pay in some form I decided it mist be demonstrable on the CV. This boiled down to a choice of either certification or part time MSc.I was working freelance (as I still do) and was asked to assist my client with recruitment. It turned out that there was a whole raft of people applying for work with certifications. Nearly all of whom really couldn't do the job they were claiming to be experts at. The client decided that he would not consider certification as a filter at all.I decided then to do the MSc which gave be a better theoretical background which I could enhance with experience. For me this is the better combination; applicable technical knowledge together with sound experience.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

arnipetursson — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:08:46 GMT

In general, certification mainly helps if you do not have a lot of experience. Once you have experience, people that are worth working for will focus on that.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

TravisDBA — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 09:00:48 GMT

[quote][b]KGERBR (12/19/2012)[/b][hr]I'm currently studying for the 70-461 - Querying SQL Server 2012 exam because the company I just started at needs to have us certified to retain their Microsoft Silver Certified Partner designation. Its kind of a "foot in the door" thing, to impress new customers, but its also about getting the SQL Server software cheaper. However, I fully intend to get all three of the certifications eventually, on my own, regardless of it being required or not. I haven't done a lot of Reporting Services and BI work so studying for that exam will be a real challenge, which to me is the whole point. If you're not challenging yourself every day then you're going to stagnate. You also need to keep up to date with each new version. The exam itself is not the goal, but it is a good, objective measurement of where you're at. And if you're half as good as you think you are, you shouldn't need to even study for it, just go ahead and write the exam. What are you afraid of? :-P[/quote]First off, I am not afraid of a test. Secondly, I have nothing to prove. A piece of paper is not going to prove/confirm my skill set to anyone anyway. My ability and expereince to do the job on a daily basis does. Thirdly, I don't need a test to be challenged, if you do then you need to re-evaluate your work ethic. I am challenged every day in my work... Also, the Microsoft Partner program has to do with Microsoft's "vested" interest I was referring to above. It has nothing to do with you improving your career. The Certification programs/tests are a "big easy" moneymaker for them. Never forget that fact. Finally, The exam is NOT a good, objective measurement of where you're at as long as they can be braindumped. :-D

RE: Those Who Can, Do

CGSJohnson — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 08:56:18 GMT

I am of that similar belief...just take the exam. If I fail, then I know I need to study.- Chris

RE: Those Who Can, Do

KGERBR — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 08:42:26 GMT

I'm currently studying for the 70-461 - Querying SQL Server 2012 exam because the company I just started at needs to have us certified to retain their Microsoft Silver Certified Partner designation. Its kind of a "foot in the door" thing, to impress new customers, but its also about getting the SQL Server software cheaper. However, I fully intend to get all three of the certifications eventually, on my own, regardless of it being required or not. I haven't done a lot of Reporting Services and BI work so studying for that exam will be a real challenge, which to me is the whole point. If you're not challenging yourself every day then you're going to stagnate. You also need to keep up to date with each new version. The exam itself is not the goal, but it is a good, objective measurement of where you're at. And if you're half as good as you think you are, you shouldn't need to even study for it, just go ahead and write the exam. What are you afraid of? :-P

RE: Those Who Can, Do

CGSJohnson — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 08:38:09 GMT

I read an article recently that spoke about a similar topic...major of IS versus major of CS, with the author preferring CS.- Chris

RE: Those Who Can, Do

cdonlan 18448 — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 08:31:04 GMT

Years ago I had two interns, one from the local state university (major was Physics ) and one from the local blue chip liberal arts school (major was MIS). Mr. Physics took to IT like fish to water and I could throw him just about anything. Mr. MIS was good at reading the newspaper. The lesson for me was not to read too much into labels.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

CGSJohnson — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 08:30:27 GMT

Some companies use their employees certifications to retain their status in the Microsoft Partnership program too. Employees might not even be aware of this! I was not when a former employee had me on their partner profile.- Chris

RE: Those Who Can, Do

GSquared — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 08:06:54 GMT

Interesting. The link in the editorial takes me to an article about dynamic retail pricing.Aha! The URL in the editorial has "amp;" in it where it shouldn't. Take that out and you get the right article.On the subject of the editorial:[quote]However if the certification gives you structure and focus, if it allows you to improve the skills you have, and bolster the weak areas in your knowledge, it can be beneficial to your career. If you are taking that knowledge and using it in your daily work, or even in your spare time, then the certification is merely a stepping stone to something greater. [/quote]How is that any different from any other method of learning? Search-and-replace "the certification" with "reading books":[quote]However if reading books gives you structure and focus, if it allows you to improve the skills you have, and bolster the weak areas in your knowledge, it can be beneficial to your career. If you are taking that knowledge and using it in your daily work, or even in your spare time, then reading books is merely a stepping stone to something greater.[/quote]Replace with "fiddling with Facebook", and it would still be a perfectly valid argument.[quote]However if fiddling with Facebook gives you structure and focus, if it allows you to improve the skills you have, and bolster the weak areas in your knowledge, it can be beneficial to your career. If you are taking that knowledge and using it in your daily work, or even in your spare time, then fiddling with Facebook is merely a stepping stone to something greater.[/quote]Logically consistent, and, if true for someone, then a valid argument. It's a bit of a stretch to assume it would be true, but if you assume that most of the person's Facebook time was spent on discussions about SQL, similar to time spent on these forums, then it's conceivable.Seems like it's a tautology, to me.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

TravisDBA — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 07:56:47 GMT

[quote][b]Simian336 (12/19/2012)[/b][hr]I got my opinion of certification when I once worked with a newly certified CCNA. We were work on a router when the CCNA guys says "wait while I hook up to the com port". We say you are already on the network just telnet to it. CCNA guys says "you can't telnet to a router".LOL....Mike[/quote]ROTFLMFAO:w00t: Priceless Mike!!! That's a perfect example of what I'm talking about with people braindumping these tests. Enough said.:-D

RE: Those Who Can, Do

Simian336 — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 07:48:10 GMT

I got my opinion of certification when I once worked with a newly certified CCNA. We were work on a router when the CCNA guys says "wait while I hook up to the com port". We say you are already on the network just telnet to it. CCNA guys says "you can't telnet to a router".LOL....Mike

RE: Those Who Can, Do

TravisDBA — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 07:38:01 GMT

[quote][b]Sean Redmond (12/19/2012)[/b][hr]I have found that the people most impressed by certification are recruiters, HR and management in general. [/quote]Sean,Yes, those people usually are impressed by that. However, those are the very people that know very little, if anything, about the actual skillls needed to be an effective DBA on a daily basis. Most of the time they are just reading stuff off a Word document looking for certain "buzz" words. :-D

RE: Those Who Can, Do

TravisDBA — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 07:23:04 GMT

I have said this before many times on this forum and it bears repeating once again. As long as "braindumps" are available to help memorize and pass these tests, then they are meaningless IMHO. People that already have the certifications and employees of Microsoft will obviously push them because they have a vested interest in doing so.:-D

RE: Those Who Can, Do

RayC-714046 — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 07:10:57 GMT

Over the 15 years I have worked in IT, I have not had an employer that values certification as anything more than a tool to get your foot in the door. When I got an MCSE+I in Windows NT 4, my employer barely acknowledged the accomplishment. When I tried to use that for the next job, the interviewers were more interested in my job experience. Since then, I have taken the classes for the new OS's or SQL Server versions, but not followed through with the certification process because out of all the IT people I have met, I only know one that was actually required to have certifications in the systems they worked with, so I don't see the value in putting the time and money into the testing process. My current employer encourages us to go through the certification process, but there is no reward for putting forth the time and effort to improve yourself for the company's benefit. If you are just out of high school and are looking for a quick way into an IT position, you can enroll in a course at the local technical college or business school, and get the certifications to get your start, because you will need the job experience to move up.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

G Bryant McClellan — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 06:00:38 GMT

I've worked with people who got their certifications solely from a book. As Sue pointed out they could not deal with a real problem when confronted. As in, they couldn't get wet if they fell out of a boat. Many of these same people complained when SQL exams began to rely more heavily on simulations. The couldn't handle it because the only knew theory.My SQL certifications are expired. I plan to pursue more. Why? For one thing my boss values it. But having been an Oracle DBA he knows the difference between a certification and the ability to function during crunch time...and so do I. In my eyes, and in his too, it is more about the discipline and dedication required to get through it. I think it speaks to character as much as knowledge.

RE: Those Who Can, Do

CGSJohnson — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 05:31:46 GMT

What about the pace of change in the certification world? What if you have earned a certification on say SQL 2005? When should you renew that, if at all? With every new release? 2 releases into the future? I know that there are technology changes between versions, but is one certification and real-world experience enough to demonstrate competency?A lot of questions...I know. Answer whichever you feel like! :-)Thanks...Chris

RE: Those Who Can, Do

SBS-291204 — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 03:31:13 GMT

It's a tough one to call really, we've all had to work with someone at some stage who had passed the exam but didn't really know their stuff. At the same time you need certifications sometimes to get your cv past HR teams, the interview if it is done well should tell you about someones experience and ability. With SQL Server can it really hurt if someone has picked up a qualification or two over the years? Does it not show that they are keen to keep learning the product?

RE: Those Who Can, Do

Sue Evans — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 02:24:17 GMT

HiI have to agree with Steve - certification is not any indication of real world ability - I really wish it was but sadly it simply isn’t true. It does show commitment to learning and developing yourself, the ability to focus on something - but it’s rare for the stuff you learn through certification to translate into hands on experience.So often the theory doesn’t match the reality - and that’s where the experience needs to come in. I’m an employer and have been a DBA (oracle and sql server) for over 15 years now - in that time I have met (on both techs) some really clever people with all the certifications you could want. But put them in front of a production system that isn’t working and they simply don’t know how to translate the knowledge that they have. On the other hand, as I mentioned, I have been a dba for many years and have no certifications at all. I probably couldn’t pass the exams either as I was always useless in that kind of an environment.As an employer, certifications become useful as a tool to check that our employees are growing in their knowledge and they provide us with tangible points for pay increases, etc - in this way they are invaluable to us. But that’s our own internal staff - not necessarily people we are looking to employ. They have to prove their knowledge to us through exams etc.As a company owner, I know clients like to see certifications because they expect that to mean competence. Which means this also makes certification good for a company as it is a selling point. Though these days that only really works with oracle because these same people don’t always understand the difference between a SQL Server certification and an office certification and just assume they are easy to get.There are undoubtedly benefits to certification - but as Steve says - experience is the key and you have to be able to demonstrate a whole lot more than just being able to pass an exam.Sue

RE: Those Who Can, Do

Sean Redmond — Wed, 19 Dec 2012 01:27:40 GMT

Isn't certification to officially show management and your boss how much you know?I have found that the people most impressed by certification are recruiters, HR and management in general. Certification is something you use to get a job or as justification for a payrise.

Those Who Can, Do

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:53:35 GMT

Comments posted to this topic are about the item [B]Those Who Can, Do[/B]