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RE: What to look for in an employer

L' Eomot Inversé — Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:58:44 GMT

Quite a nice editorial. I guess I agree with most of it - although I agree even more with the comment Gus posted on Monday.The flagpole idea is interesting. From that I should be able to deduce, for example, that the USMC is in decline, which would so much surprise me that I don't believe the flagpole bit. And then fish tanks. On Gower Street and Lisle Street in London a fish tank tends to be a sign of a thriving business (albeit perhaps not one which employs a DBA). :-P Just another two well known indicators of decline that are actually nothing of the sort. ;-)On the whole, I am more interested in how the people seem to be in interviews; any firm which has such a formal interview process that there is no way to assess the personalities of their people handling the interviews is a definite no for me. I prefer it if the interviewers are interested in approaches to doing things, rather than technical stuff that can be picked up from a reference book - maybe that's because I believe in learning new things, not in repeating old things (with one exception: learning new things is an old thing which I have often repeated). In fact I want to work with people who are willing to learn new things, take on problems that they have no idea how to solve until they've done some work, as well as having great technical competence an expertise.

RE: What to look for in an employer

TravisDBA — Tue, 24 Jul 2012 10:02:18 GMT

[quote][b]jbnv (7/24/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]James Stover (7/24/2012)[/b][hr]I always try to find out if I am filling a new position or one that someone has vacated. That 's the initial fork in the road for me.[/quote]Which leads to other forks. If vacated, was that person fired or did they resign, and why? (A good person could be fired because of office politics. A good person could resign from a good company because of personal reasons that have nothing to do with the state of the company. Etc.)[/quote]And... if any of that was really the case they probably would not tell you real reason(s) anyway. :-D

RE: What to look for in an employer

jbnv — Tue, 24 Jul 2012 09:51:23 GMT

[quote][b]James Stover (7/24/2012)[/b][hr]I always try to find out if I am filling a new position or one that someone has vacated. That 's the initial fork in the road for me.[/quote]Which leads to other forks. If vacated, was that person fired or did they resign, and why? (A good person could be fired because of office politics. A good person could resign from a good company because of personal reasons that have nothing to do with the state of the company. Etc.)

RE: What to look for in an employer

James Stover — Tue, 24 Jul 2012 08:26:29 GMT

I always try to find out if I am filling a new position or one that someone has vacated. That 's the initial fork in the road for me.I also agree with the common courtesy items like "Did you find us OK?" or "Would you like some water?". If the interviewer hasn't even grasped the basics of politeness, then beware the sociopath.

RE: What to look for in an employer

Freddie-304292 — Mon, 23 Jul 2012 08:27:56 GMT

[quote][b]TravisDBA (7/23/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Freddie-304292 (7/23/2012)[/b][hr]I know it sounds minor, but good cycling facilities is a big one for me nowadays. It's become my main form of exercise and I wouldn't want to give it up for a job just because there were no showers and no where to leave my bike. Don't get the issue with the flagpoles and fishtanks. Don't see much in the way of Flagpoles in the UK, but I've worked places with Fishtanks before and they've not gone out of business.[/quote]I totally understand the need to exercise, but please remember, you are not being paid to ride a bike at work. That should be at most a secondary consideration. :-D[/quote]:-D

RE: What to look for in an employer

TravisDBA — Mon, 23 Jul 2012 08:23:27 GMT

[quote][b]Freddie-304292 (7/23/2012)[/b][hr]I know it sounds minor, but good cycling facilities is a big one for me nowadays. It's become my main form of exercise and I wouldn't want to give it up for a job just because there were no showers and no where to leave my bike. Don't get the issue with the flagpoles and fishtanks. Don't see much in the way of Flagpoles in the UK, but I've worked places with Fishtanks before and they've not gone out of business.[/quote]I totally understand the need to exercise, but please remember, you are not being paid to ride a bike at work. That should be at most a secondary consideration. :-D

RE: What to look for in an employer

Freddie-304292 — Mon, 23 Jul 2012 08:08:00 GMT

I know it sounds minor, but good cycling facilities is a big one for me nowadays. It's become my main form of exercise and I wouldn't want to give it up for a job just because there were no showers and no where to leave my bike. Don't get the issue with the flagpoles and fishtanks. Don't see much in the way of Flagpoles in the UK, but I've worked places with Fishtanks before and they've not gone out of business.

RE: What to look for in an employer

jolly sql — Mon, 23 Jul 2012 07:37:46 GMT

I look for a place with a nine or above on the [url=http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000043.html]Joel Test[/url]. I will even ask the manager for their Joel test score or ask if I can help them get it there.Definitely two monitors or more per developer. Great windows and ventilation. Fish tanks in foyers are generally good for Feng Shui (Chinese art of design). The catch is they must be clean and colorful so that they can bring good energy to a place which will help the people feel good and the business will generally benefit.

RE: What to look for in an employer

jbnv — Mon, 23 Jul 2012 07:27:29 GMT

I too would like to know the significance of the flagpole and the fish tank. "There are, of course, the classic general danger signs such as a fish-tank in the foyer, and a flagpole outside. Either, evidently, is a classic sign of a company in its terminal stages." Evident to whom? Are you being serious or facetious?My guesses: If a company has a flagpole, then I would check the flag. In good condition: good sign. In bad condition: probably a bad sign. Bare pole during working hours (especially if it has a light aimed at the top): probably a bad sign. A fish tank without fish in plain sight is probably a bad sign unless someone is cleaning it. An active fish tank contributes to the ambiance, so I would wonder what purpose it serves. And at any rate, a live fish tank means that company resources are being used on things that are not absolutely essential to the business.

RE: What to look for in an employer

GSquared — Mon, 23 Jul 2012 07:16:01 GMT

The main thing I look for is the same thing I do when I'm either side of a job interview. I do what's called a "two-minute psychometry". It simply consists of communicating with the person while taking on various personality traits. When you get strong, fast agreement, that's the person's base-personality. Run like heck from the destructive ones, pick the positive ones. Hasn't failed me yet.Takes a few hours to learn properly, and some practice to get good at, but it's easy, it's accurate enough, and it works.Even a "failing" company, with the right leadership, can pull out of disasters. Can be worth the chance to join a company that very well might showing signs of stress, if the leadership has the traits that can deal well with that kind of thing. Even a prosperous company that's currently doing well can be killed horribly by leadership with the wrong traits. So I pay more attention to who I'm dealing with than any other single factor.

RE: What to look for in an employer

TheSQLPro.com — Mon, 23 Jul 2012 06:37:57 GMT

One of the best interviews I had included talking with the various users I would be working with on a regular basis. This helped me understand how much the company cared about delivering the right product to our users. The job was for a Reporting/Database Analyst and I loved working for that company and I would have retired there; but I moved to another state.One of the worst interview I had included a question on the phone that went like this "Are you a hard worker?" Ummm no, I'm lazy but please give me the job! I have had onsite interviews where I took certification exams, other types of test, etc. It's not the greatest assessment tool, but it's alright. I prefer when the company has their own testing environment as opposed to using a Certification Exam (since I don't work with XML all those questions were annoying!).I've also had interviews were the person on the phone asks a ridiculous question for which one would have had to memorize the text book and then tells me I'm wrong and tells me the right answer afterwards. Needless to say, I rejected going for the onsite interview. One humiliation is enough right?Another thing to look for is to see if you keep getting repeated questions from different interviewers. This tells me that there is some communication breakup somewhere in the chain. When I run interviews, I make sure that the entire team has the set of technical questions we will review and then we tell each other which questions were asked. That way when we want to ask a similar question we ask for more depth.It is also a good sign when the interviewers are relaxed and may ask some informal questions or have a sense of humor. You never want to work in a place that is run like a concentration camp where the death penalty is issued for smiling!My two cents!www.thesqlpro.com

RE: What to look for in an employer

Keith Langmead — Mon, 23 Jul 2012 06:01:43 GMT

Perhaps it's minor, but for me a big one would have to be if they were using dual (at least) displays or not. After a decade of having two monitors at two different companies I refuse to go back, so if they didn't already have them that would definitely be something I'd be asking about.

RE: What to look for in an employer

derek.colley — Mon, 23 Jul 2012 02:05:40 GMT

What I look for is a challenge. My last employer, though the people were warm and friendly and the environment was OK, was in the managed services business - providing outsourced IT support to multiple customers. Consequently I was encouraged (as the DBA) to be reactive to issues, rather than proactive. Any attempt at proactive measures (implementing source control, standards, even performance alerting) was robustly denied on commercial grounds. 'Is the customer paying for this? No? Then it's a no. Cheers anyway.' After 8 months I had had enough and moved onto a more challenging role.I think things like the flagpole / fishtank (not sure of the significance of this?), decent coffee, good environment etc. are important but nowhere near as important as the core of the work. I've worked on trains and buses, in a crowded study, on hotdesks, in cafes and pubs (bars for you merkins) and I find I can normally be productive anywhere. When I worked for one large company (rearrange the letters BMI) I didn't even have a permanent office - I was free to roam the country, working where I wanted to (home, office, cafe) providing I turned in the work.Now I work for a small dev shop. It's an OK environment - good coffee, open-plan, small staff turnover - but it's the opportunities I have to develop and implement best practices and develop my skills in areas in which I'm weak that mean I'll stay here for as long as they want me.

RE: What to look for in an employer

davoscollective — Mon, 23 Jul 2012 01:55:12 GMT

My local Cafe where I get my real coffee in the morning just put in a fish tank under their counter. I hope they don't go out of business!I think one sign of a bad place to work is one that's rife with nepotism. If the Boss's son or daughter is also of senior rank and in line for the "throne" then run a mile.

RE: What to look for in an employer

P Jones — Mon, 23 Jul 2012 01:18:02 GMT

[quote]"There are, of course, the classic general danger signs such as a fish-tank in the foyer, and a flagpole outside."[/quote] :laugh:When you work for the government the danger sign is the absence of the flagpole!

RE: What to look for in an employer

rktn_odin — Sun, 22 Jul 2012 22:17:11 GMT

Hey guys, I have some noob questions.What is "fish-tank" and "flagpole" term means?

RE: What to look for in an employer

Ian Massi — Sun, 22 Jul 2012 15:35:42 GMT

I always scope out the parking lot as well. Hard to tell whether a vehicle is leased or not but if there's clearly a large number of older vehicles, especially inexpensive models I judge it to mean that there is a disconnect between how management is valued and the rank and file is valued. One place I worked also had a separate lot for management. The lot for the rest was five minutes away, unpaved and filled with cheap cars. Bad sign.Trying to determine the ratio of women to men in the office is a pretty good indicator too. An office with an even balance (especially in each work group) I believe will work better than groups that are overwhelmingly male or female. I think that just having members of the opposite sex nearby keeps people on their best behaviour. I have seen it work and the lack of it fail to work.I'm curious about the fish tank though. Never heard that one so I'll keep an eye out.

RE: What to look for in an employer

Phil Factor — Sun, 22 Jul 2012 14:10:44 GMT

I don't know the origin of this saying, but it comes from accountants. The third bad sign, according to the legend, is a car-park full of expensive lease cars. Why flagpoles are bad I don't know, but the last time I visited a company with both the fish-tank and the flagpole, it was out of business within six months. Maybe it is different in the Southern States

RE: What to look for in an employer

Tim OPry — Sun, 22 Jul 2012 11:23:25 GMT

"There are, of course, the classic general danger signs such as a fish-tank in the foyer, and a flagpole outside."Flag poles are quite common in our area of the country (South) - so I don't know what the basis for something like this might be. [and it is rare to see the confederate flag outside of rural areas, we just fly 'old glory' and our state flag]. Most of the rest of your points I would agree with - but not this one.

What to look for in an employer

Phil Factor — Sun, 22 Jul 2012 11:18:56 GMT

Comments posted to this topic are about the item [B]What to look for in an employer[/B]