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RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

packersfan59 — Tue, 12 Feb 2013 15:36:11 GMT

Honest answer. How many quad core processors at 2.8GHZ and 5 errors per sq. cm will it take to process 1 terabyte of information in 1 second? What will customer X be doing next Thursday and how can Company target marketing to what they are likely to be doing? What is the best path for a network to take to minimize downtime (use an RBFS tree)? Can you build a program that can replace half the workers doing repetitive tasks at your firm (don't worry you work as part of a team)?How many different atomic structures are there? Can you build a database program that can find them all? Also, you need to build a model of the structure using matrix math.How many operations are performed in your database in order to transfer 1,000,000,000 records or more? How should you design a database that handles this information, SQL is a terrible option here? What structures can you use to read and sort the information in < 1 minute? Can you program micro devices?Age old question, what is multi-threading and what is forking?Can you build an application that can use server processed data to display things in a GUI, record information, and work much faster than flash no matter the network connection?Obviously, the other people have no freaking clue why they got a CS degree and are now stuck. The way the market is going, the questions above are going to be the ones that computer scientists are made for.P.S. I only have a degree from a mediocre state school and can answer all of these and more. Way more valuable than the IT major who doesn't know what an algorithm is or the self taught guy who cannot do a tripple integral or a state table. :-P

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

IceDread — Fri, 30 Mar 2012 00:09:37 GMT

[quote][b]James Goodwin (3/29/2012)[/b][hr]IceDread,[quote]No, that's not the case.[/quote]I'm not sure what you're disputing here. Are you saying that the fields I listed are not different, or that the article and comments do not conflate them? You seem to be saying that a degree in Computer Science doesn't let one do computer science which seems absurd. You might be saying that you don't need a degree to do the field and for Programming and IT that is true. For CS or CE that is less true.[quote]Would you would actually recommend your children to take an education and go into our business area? [/quote]Which business area? My entire post was that there is not a single field that encompasses "computer expert". There are (at least) the four I listed.Would I recommend that my children go into:a) Computer Science: Sure. It's a great field with lots of interesting questions ahead of it. Natural Language, Machine Learning, Massively Parallel systems, etc.b) Computer Engineering: Sure. Inventing, designing, and building electronic devices would be fun.c) Computer Programming: Mostly. Again, lots of challenges, interesting projects, the thrill of creating. The only caveat is I would recommend a CS degree instead of a programming degree.d) IT: No. Lots of drudgery. Long hours. etc.And Since this is SQLServerCentrale) DBA: Maybe, but again they should go through CS or at least Programming to get there. Database development is a lot more fun that server administration.--JimFive[/quote]My point was that where you live computer engineering means one thing while I know it has a different meaning in other parts of the world. Where I live for instance, it's usually associated with developers, just as computer science degree means more or less the same thing but is a lesser education.Which business area? Would you recommend your child to study to become a developer/ dba? It appears you would, I would not. And in my world, that defines if IT is or will die as a respected line of work with good salaries. Perhaps I'm wrong, I'd like to be wrong, but I believe that in 20+ years higher salaries within the IT lines of business will be rare because of globalization, india, china and a bit later usa will push the salaries down.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Lynn Pettis — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:45:37 GMT

[quote][b]Stephanie Giovannini (3/29/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]sturner (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]In my experience VB/Basic programmers have shown the worst software design techniques, implementations and documentation. The opposite seems to be true for those trained in OO, and specifically C & C++.I have seen this over and over again through the years. More often than not, VB programmers were self-taught or migrated to VB from vbscript (or VBA like with excell). Very few people have the discipline or aptitude to self teach C++... and some don;t get it even after getting exposed to it in college course.My $.02[/quote]Yes, I've seen this also. It's not being self-taught. A large percentage of the programmers I know are self-taught (myself included). But, those for whom the first language was VB or VBA have this disadvantage. I'm not sure why. I think it's bad habit. VB code, in the past, didn't enforce good coding habits and some of the language limitations prevented good coding. Now, there's so much bad VB code out there, it's like a self-perpetuating cycle.Personally, I loath VB, and I've tried to rationalize that loathing. I associate it with the worst programming I've ever seen. I also have a strong distaste for its verbosity, awkward keyword casing, and the childish names Me and My.[/quote]You haven't seen the COBOL code I had the opportunity to support for eleven years. The base code, we could do nothing about, and we had to code in it to its level (UGLY!). New code that we could separate out to new supprograms, that is where we used structured coding, eliminated the use of GOTOs, etc. That code was clean and easily maintained and enhanced.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Stephanie Giovannini — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 13:41:27 GMT

[quote][b]sturner (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]In my experience VB/Basic programmers have shown the worst software design techniques, implementations and documentation. The opposite seems to be true for those trained in OO, and specifically C & C++.I have seen this over and over again through the years. More often than not, VB programmers were self-taught or migrated to VB from vbscript (or VBA like with excell). Very few people have the discipline or aptitude to self teach C++... and some don;t get it even after getting exposed to it in college course.My $.02[/quote]Yes, I've seen this also. It's not being self-taught. A large percentage of the programmers I know are self-taught (myself included). But, those for whom the first language was VB or VBA have this disadvantage. I'm not sure why. I think it's bad habit. VB code, in the past, didn't enforce good coding habits and some of the language limitations prevented good coding. Now, there's so much bad VB code out there, it's like a self-perpetuating cycle.Personally, I loath VB, and I've tried to rationalize that loathing. I associate it with the worst programming I've ever seen. I also have a strong distaste for its verbosity, awkward keyword casing, and the childish names Me and My.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

James Goodwin — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:08:01 GMT

IceDread,[quote]No, that's not the case.[/quote]I'm not sure what you're disputing here. Are you saying that the fields I listed are not different, or that the article and comments do not conflate them? You seem to be saying that a degree in Computer Science doesn't let one do computer science which seems absurd. You might be saying that you don't need a degree to do the field and for Programming and IT that is true. For CS or CE that is less true.[quote]Would you would actually recommend your children to take an education and go into our business area? [/quote]Which business area? My entire post was that there is not a single field that encompasses "computer expert". There are (at least) the four I listed.Would I recommend that my children go into:a) Computer Science: Sure. It's a great field with lots of interesting questions ahead of it. Natural Language, Machine Learning, Massively Parallel systems, etc.b) Computer Engineering: Sure. Inventing, designing, and building electronic devices would be fun.c) Computer Programming: Mostly. Again, lots of challenges, interesting projects, the thrill of creating. The only caveat is I would recommend a CS degree instead of a programming degree.d) IT: No. Lots of drudgery. Long hours. etc.And Since this is SQLServerCentrale) DBA: Maybe, but again they should go through CS or at least Programming to get there. Database development is a lot more fun that server administration.--JimFive

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Mad Hacker — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:32:56 GMT

Is Computer Science dead? My initial thought was no. However, while reading through all of the posts on this topic, I began to think that maybe it is dead, or least dying when viewed in the traditional sense. In other words, it’s changing, or going through a phase shift, similar to the way that much of the manufacturing in the U.S. has gone over seas in recent years. I can’t help but wonder if this may be the reason that there are fewer people entering Computer Science in college. I know that I wouldn’t want to invest my time and money studying a declining trade where many of my future opportunities may be far away from home. Does one need a Computer Science degree in order to program, design or administer systems? Of course not, but it’s certainly beneficial, in my opinion. I’ve got over 20 years of industry experience and hold degrees in Business Administration and Computer Science, and most of the degreed developers that I’ve worked with over the years have outperformed their non-degreed peers. However, I must say that (2) of the better developers that I’ve ever worked with were non-degreed and self-taught, but did have some unrelated college experience. On the other hand, I’ve also worked with a couple of developers with graduate degrees that weren’t in the same league as most of their non-degreed peers. Although, I don’t have any hard numbers, I would be willing to bet my paycheck that the development teams that are responsible for developing the majority of the multi-million dollar systems that are on the market these days are degreed professionals that formally learned the fundamentals of their trades at an institution of higher learning.Computer Science is not dead, it is just changing.Long live Computer Science!!!

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

GSquared — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:47:56 GMT

[quote][b]Lynn Pettis (3/28/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]James Stover (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]Computer science isn't dead, but the way it's taught probably is. By the time you finish a four-year degree in CompSci, much of what you learned at the start is irrelevant. Let's take iOS. Four years ago it was essentially nothing. Now, devs are getting rich (or at least earning a good living) building iOS apps on - arguably - the largest mobile platform on the planet.Why would you bother spending a mint earning an obsolete CS degree from some old fart (in their 30's :-)) to just end up as Dilbert when you could have spent those 4 years getting rich? Or at least doing something very cool. This is how kids are looking at it these days. Can't say I blame them.[/quote]Somebody developed iOS (actually, it was probably a team), and they probably have degrees in Computer Science.[/quote]iOS, like Mac OS X, is (if I'm not mistaken) based on BSD Unix. If so, then definitely yes on the CS degrees there. People who have or were working on at the time.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

michael.albert — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:35:41 GMT

[quote][b]James Goodwin (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]The essay and the comments conflate too many things.Computer Science is not programming, is not Computer Engineering, is not IT.Computer Science is the field of mathematical analysis of algorithms, languages, and automata.Computer Engineering is the field of designing and building electronic computers.Computer Programming is the field of creating software for electronic computers.Information Technology is the field of designing and supporting the infrastructure of electronic computing in a business environment.Is there overlap between these fields? Yes. A programming with some background in algorithms is going to be more effective than one without. A systems programmer with a computer engineering background is going to do a better job than one without.So to answer the headline question:Is computer Science dead? No, research into parallel computing, distributed computing, encryption, and the various AI disciplines continues apace.Is Computer programming dead? No, look at the proliferation of apps for tablets and phones. Although it is arguable that computer programming as a degree field is being swamped by the self-taught of various levels of aptitude.Is Computer engineering dead? Closer, new devices are getting smaller but there doesn't seem to be as much development in architecture as their used to be, or maybe I'm just not paying attention.Is IT dead? Not as long as there are business that have networks and users.--JimFive[/quote]+10000000!

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

michael.albert — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:33:35 GMT

[quote][b]Tony Savoie (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]IT has been dieing since IT began. Every new technology is the end of the world. Saw it with client/server replacing big iron in glass rooms, saw it with the interweb and thin clients, saw it with outsourcing, now hearing the same crap regarding omg "The Cloud"....Can you tell you've hit a nerve? :)[/quote]how to succeed in IT without really trying - 2011/2012 edition: insert "cloud" into every other sentence :-D

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

IceDread — Thu, 29 Mar 2012 00:18:00 GMT

[quote][b]James Goodwin (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]The essay and the comments conflate too many things.Computer Science is not programming, is not Computer Engineering, is not IT.Computer Science is the field of mathematical analysis of algorithms, languages, and automata.Computer Engineering is the field of designing and building electronic computers.Computer Programming is the field of creating software for electronic computers.Information Technology is the field of designing and supporting the infrastructure of electronic computing in a business environment.[/quote]No, that's not the case. If you belive an education in these areas leads directly to your defined field, it might be the case where you live, but do not presume it's the case all over. [quote]Is there overlap between these fields? Yes. A programming with some background in algorithms is going to be more effective than one without. A systems programmer with a computer engineering background is going to do a better job than one without.So to answer the headline question:Is computer Science dead? No, research into parallel computing, distributed computing, encryption, and the various AI disciplines continues apace.Is Computer programming dead? No, look at the proliferation of apps for tablets and phones. Although it is arguable that computer programming as a degree field is being swamped by the self-taught of various levels of aptitude.Is Computer engineering dead? Closer, new devices are getting smaller but there doesn't seem to be as much development in architecture as their used to be, or maybe I'm just not paying attention.Is IT dead? Not as long as there are business that have networks and users.--JimFive[/quote]Would you would actually recommend your children to take an education and go into our business area?

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Lynn Pettis — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 23:21:28 GMT

[quote][b]James Stover (3/28/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Lynn Pettis (3/28/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]James Stover (3/28/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Lynn Pettis (3/28/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]James Stover (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]Computer science isn't dead, but the way it's taught probably is. By the time you finish a four-year degree in CompSci, much of what you learned at the start is irrelevant. Let's take iOS. Four years ago it was essentially nothing. Now, devs are getting rich (or at least earning a good living) building iOS apps on - arguably - the largest mobile platform on the planet.Why would you bother spending a mint earning an obsolete CS degree from some old fart (in their 30's :-)) to just end up as Dilbert when you could have spent those 4 years getting rich? Or at least doing something very cool. This is how kids are looking at it these days. Can't say I blame them.[/quote]Somebody developed iOS (actually, it was probably a team), and they probably have degrees in Computer Science.[/quote]Indeed, I'm sure it was a very large team full of CS graduates. And I would be suprised when they embarked on their CS degree if any of them said: "I would love to build a semi-invisible proprietary platform for a ruthless mega-corporation so other people can do cool stuff and get rich." Maybe some did. Who knows.The way CS is presented and taught in universities today really only has a place in R&D. There is absolutely a need for this but it's not exactly...sexy.[/quote]Some people aren't after sexy, they are after something that interests them and perhaps excites them.[/quote]Agreed. And these days most would-be developers can reach this mythic top level of Maslow's pyramid without a CS degree.[/quote]Maybe. Depends on what type of software they are working on in my opinion.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

James Stover — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 23:16:35 GMT

[quote][b]Lynn Pettis (3/28/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]James Stover (3/28/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Lynn Pettis (3/28/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]James Stover (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]Computer science isn't dead, but the way it's taught probably is. By the time you finish a four-year degree in CompSci, much of what you learned at the start is irrelevant. Let's take iOS. Four years ago it was essentially nothing. Now, devs are getting rich (or at least earning a good living) building iOS apps on - arguably - the largest mobile platform on the planet.Why would you bother spending a mint earning an obsolete CS degree from some old fart (in their 30's :-)) to just end up as Dilbert when you could have spent those 4 years getting rich? Or at least doing something very cool. This is how kids are looking at it these days. Can't say I blame them.[/quote]Somebody developed iOS (actually, it was probably a team), and they probably have degrees in Computer Science.[/quote]Indeed, I'm sure it was a very large team full of CS graduates. And I would be suprised when they embarked on their CS degree if any of them said: "I would love to build a semi-invisible proprietary platform for a ruthless mega-corporation so other people can do cool stuff and get rich." Maybe some did. Who knows.The way CS is presented and taught in universities today really only has a place in R&D. There is absolutely a need for this but it's not exactly...sexy.[/quote]Some people aren't after sexy, they are after something that interests them and perhaps excites them.[/quote]Agreed. And these days most would-be developers can reach this mythic top level of Maslow's pyramid without a CS degree.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Lynn Pettis — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:51:56 GMT

[quote][b]James Stover (3/28/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Lynn Pettis (3/28/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]James Stover (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]Computer science isn't dead, but the way it's taught probably is. By the time you finish a four-year degree in CompSci, much of what you learned at the start is irrelevant. Let's take iOS. Four years ago it was essentially nothing. Now, devs are getting rich (or at least earning a good living) building iOS apps on - arguably - the largest mobile platform on the planet.Why would you bother spending a mint earning an obsolete CS degree from some old fart (in their 30's :-)) to just end up as Dilbert when you could have spent those 4 years getting rich? Or at least doing something very cool. This is how kids are looking at it these days. Can't say I blame them.[/quote]Somebody developed iOS (actually, it was probably a team), and they probably have degrees in Computer Science.[/quote]Indeed, I'm sure it was a very large team full of CS graduates. And I would be suprised when they embarked on their CS degree if any of them said: "I would love to build a semi-invisible proprietary platform for a ruthless mega-corporation so other people can do cool stuff and get rich." Maybe some did. Who knows.The way CS is presented and taught in universities today really only has a place in R&D. There is absolutely a need for this but it's not exactly...sexy.[/quote]Some people aren't after sexy, they are after something that interests them and perhaps excites them.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

James Stover — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 20:35:53 GMT

[quote][b]Lynn Pettis (3/28/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]James Stover (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]Computer science isn't dead, but the way it's taught probably is. By the time you finish a four-year degree in CompSci, much of what you learned at the start is irrelevant. Let's take iOS. Four years ago it was essentially nothing. Now, devs are getting rich (or at least earning a good living) building iOS apps on - arguably - the largest mobile platform on the planet.Why would you bother spending a mint earning an obsolete CS degree from some old fart (in their 30's :-)) to just end up as Dilbert when you could have spent those 4 years getting rich? Or at least doing something very cool. This is how kids are looking at it these days. Can't say I blame them.[/quote]Somebody developed iOS (actually, it was probably a team), and they probably have degrees in Computer Science.[/quote]Indeed, I'm sure it was a very large team full of CS graduates. And I would be suprised when they embarked on their CS degree if any of them said: "I would love to build a semi-invisible proprietary platform for a ruthless mega-corporation so other people can do cool stuff and get rich." Maybe some did. Who knows.The way CS is presented and taught in universities today really only has a place in R&D. There is absolutely a need for this but it's not exactly...sexy.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Lynn Pettis — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 19:09:08 GMT

[quote][b]James Stover (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]Computer science isn't dead, but the way it's taught probably is. By the time you finish a four-year degree in CompSci, much of what you learned at the start is irrelevant. Let's take iOS. Four years ago it was essentially nothing. Now, devs are getting rich (or at least earning a good living) building iOS apps on - arguably - the largest mobile platform on the planet.Why would you bother spending a mint earning an obsolete CS degree from some old fart (in their 30's :-)) to just end up as Dilbert when you could have spent those 4 years getting rich? Or at least doing something very cool. This is how kids are looking at it these days. Can't say I blame them.[/quote]Somebody developed iOS (actually, it was probably a team), and they probably have degrees in Computer Science.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

James Stover — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 18:54:13 GMT

Computer science isn't dead, but the way it's taught probably is. By the time you finish a four-year degree in CompSci, much of what you learned at the start is irrelevant. Let's take iOS. Four years ago it was essentially nothing. Now, devs are getting rich (or at least earning a good living) building iOS apps on - arguably - the largest mobile platform on the planet.Why would you bother spending a mint earning an obsolete CS degree from some old fart (in their 30's :-)) to just end up as Dilbert when you could have spent those 4 years getting rich? Or at least doing something very cool. This is how kids are looking at it these days. Can't say I blame them.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Evil Kraig F — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:40:52 GMT

I'm always surprised by the concern this question raises. Is Computer Science dead? No, of course not. Does everyone who works in IT need it? Of course not.Alright, let's look back about 100 years. In design and development of an engine for a vehicle, you need to be an engineer.Now, is your local mechanic cleaning your carberateur an engineer? No, no he's not. In some places he got taught this instead of finishing his high school degree. He's the mechanic. He can drop in a new engine, hook it to the driveshaft, and understands enough about how the designs generally work to figure out if he's dealing with a timing or a spark plug problem.Then he consults a manual, written by the engineers, about what to do about it. He might even plug into the computer and find out what that has to offer if it's ODB2. Do we still need mechanical engineers? Well, of course we do, we're still designing new technology and including it into the older designs. Hybrid fuels, electrical/gasoline switches, the works.The guy working on my car doesn't have to know the front load weight of the bolt that holds down the alternator, he just needs to use an equivalent one when he swaps out the one that broke.For cars, we're the users.For databases, almost all of us are mechanics of varying abilties.I'm Craig Farrell, and I'm proud to be a Database Mechanic.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

webrunner — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:08:00 GMT

Thanks, Steve, for the thought-provoking question. I think rumors of the death of computer science probably mask the fact that most of the world is probably getting by on the fruits of the labor of the first few generations of real computer scientists. I'm not an apocalyptic person, but it does seem to me that a lot of the ignoring of computer science fundamentals that seems to be going around will come to a head and force a kind of reckoning. Maybe not a collapse of computing but an upheaval that will make people realize that, as you said, there is value in algorithms, solving puzzles like the Towers of Hanoi, and knowing how information is processed (databases included, of course). There haven't always been computers, but there will always be information, and so there will always be a need for people who know the principles of working with information. I think for now there is a kind of laziness (I mean practically, not as a moral judgment) about how computer stuff "just works" without a realization of the immense training and effort that makes it "just work."Just my two cents.- webrunner

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

sturner — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 12:05:34 GMT

[quote][b]Antares686 (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]Haha, you just described me. I am self taught in all the C++, C#, VB, T-SQL, and PL/SQL. A bit of terminology I cannot directly relate but I can code circles around many of the vets and college kids who can talk the talk. Sometimes I think self teaching if you do have the aptitude has the bennifit of not being weighed down with the baggage of this is the way it happens versus it can be done better another way. Very rarely do I find anyone who can talk the talk and walk the walk in true defined understanding.[/quote]Agreed. If you are serious enough to learn something on your own you are probably way ahead of your contemporaries. Having said that, even if you started by taking a class, that is just the beginning of opening up your mind so you can think outside of the box. Achieving competency or even expert status requires lots of hard work and experience and continuing to maintain your currency as new versions are released.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Antares686 — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:53:28 GMT

[quote][b]sturner (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]I have seen this over and over again through the years. More often than not, VB programmers were self-taught or migrated to VB from vbscript (or VBA like with excell). Very few people have the discipline or aptitude to self teach C++... and some don;t get it even after getting exposed to it in college course.[/quote]Haha, you just described me. I am self taught in all the C++, C#, VB, T-SQL, and PL/SQL. A bit of terminology I cannot directly relate but I can code circles around many of the vets and college kids who can talk the talk. Sometimes I think self teaching if you do have the aptitude has the bennifit of not being weighed down with the baggage of this is the way it happens versus it can be done better another way. Very rarely do I find anyone who can talk the talk and walk the walk in true defined understanding.[quote][b]sturner (3/28/2012)[/b][hr][quote][b]Randy Rabin (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]I'm not sure that pure programming is completely relevant to being a DBA, but Data Structure and Relational Set theory definitely should be. Every DBA should fundamentally know what a B-Tree is.IMHO :-)[/quote]Lacking knowledge of programming languages and platforms (i.e .NET) or good programming techniques will put you at a severe disadvantage at my company (and probably most that have developers). If you can't provide guidance to people who are quite capable of bringing your server to its knees with a few dozen lines of code you are in for some difficulties.[/quote]Actually it depends on what your role within the company is as to if it will put you at a disadvantage. A DBA at some companies may not have any need beyond making it run and the programmers are the ones wholly responsible for the code and what affect it has. Sounds like your company has a mixed requirement on the DBA job in that they must understand development and design as well as the service itself.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Evil Kraig F — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:52:05 GMT

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

sturner — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:27:59 GMT

[quote][b]Randy Rabin (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]I'm not sure that pure programming is completely relevant to being a DBA, but Data Structure and Relational Set theory definitely should be. Every DBA should fundamentally know what a B-Tree is.IMHO :-)[/quote]Lacking knowledge of programming languages and platforms (i.e .NET) or good programming techniques will put you at a severe disadvantage at my company (and probably most that have developers). If you can't provide guidance to people who are quite capable of bringing your server to its knees with a few dozen lines of code you are in for some difficulties.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

sturner — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:20:38 GMT

In my experience VB/Basic programmers have shown the worst software design techniques, implementations and documentation. The opposite seems to be true for those trained in OO, and specifically C & C++.I have seen this over and over again through the years. More often than not, VB programmers were self-taught or migrated to VB from vbscript (or VBA like with excell). Very few people have the discipline or aptitude to self teach C++... and some don;t get it even after getting exposed to it in college course.My $.02

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Randy Rabin — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:13:00 GMT

I have a huge appreciation for RDBMS engines like SQL Server and others, after spending many college-years during the 80's writing low-level programs to create and process data structures. There's nothing like slogging down that road before becoming a DBA, to understand by RBAR is a four-letter word :-DI'm not sure that pure programming is completely relevant to being a DBA, but Data Structure and Relational Set theory definitely should be. Every DBA should fundamentally know what a B-Tree is.IMHO :-)

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

James Goodwin — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 10:40:24 GMT

The essay and the comments conflate too many things.Computer Science is not programming, is not Computer Engineering, is not IT.Computer Science is the field of mathematical analysis of algorithms, languages, and automata.Computer Engineering is the field of designing and building electronic computers.Computer Programming is the field of creating software for electronic computers.Information Technology is the field of designing and supporting the infrastructure of electronic computing in a business environment.Is there overlap between these fields? Yes. A programming with some background in algorithms is going to be more effective than one without. A systems programmer with a computer engineering background is going to do a better job than one without.So to answer the headline question:Is computer Science dead? No, research into parallel computing, distributed computing, encryption, and the various AI disciplines continues apace.Is Computer programming dead? No, look at the proliferation of apps for tablets and phones. Although it is arguable that computer programming as a degree field is being swamped by the self-taught of various levels of aptitude.Is Computer engineering dead? Closer, new devices are getting smaller but there doesn't seem to be as much development in architecture as their used to be, or maybe I'm just not paying attention.Is IT dead? Not as long as there are business that have networks and users.--JimFive

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Antares686 — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:41:47 GMT

Actually I was told a while back to look at it this way. In the early years when Computers were new things were generalized, kind of like early doctors. Now that the field has grown a lot you have fields of practice which are increasingly more important that. At some point computer science will become a basic class toward a targeted path such as Database design or Network architecture. Things will become specialized, which improves quality. You wouldn't want a general practice doctor performing heart Surgery if he was not specialized in it. The same is becoming true with computer systems as they become more and more critical. Could you imagine get a BSOD on the Space Station oxygen supply or worse your artificial heart? Read After the Gold Rush: Creating a True Profession of Software Engineering by Steve McConnell for more on this. I do think ultimately as systems become more and more critical that you will ultimately have some areas so specialized you will have true engineers in that area who have to give approval over other peoples work because of legality.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

yazalpizar_ — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:31:27 GMT

[quote][b]WolforthJ (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]There are just too many things wrong with this article to address. I can't argue that the perception that programming is dead is true, and I can look around at fellow programmers and see why. I see my job as getting business people tools to collect, then get to, their data. If a pre-packaged tool can do that cheaper than I can by writing code, that's great. Many coders, dba or otherwise, see those pre-packaged tools as a threat. That's where they shoot their own foot because if they worked with those tools, they would be seen as valuable members of a team, instead of people tyring to protect the job they learned to do 20 years ago. Academia probably needs to change too. If I were starting a project that I knew would take 4 to complete, I would have to plan on technology changes that would occur in those 4 years. I don't think schools look ahead like that.[/quote]The article does not discuss if programming is dead, offcourse is not dead and I doubt will die, always there is something to be programed. I use 3rd company tools to speed up my job, Telerik in VisualStudio, RedGate on SQL, SMSS Tools to write TSQL and many more. But these tools are a way to get to my goal, not a goal on themselves. Many selfcalled programmers copy/paste a couple (o thousands) of lines taken from a forum, add some fancy comments and...tada! jobs is done...but once they try to do something little bit different then "sorry, I can't find on internet what you need to do' or 'this can not be done'. That is why programming is not dead and will not die.That is why some college is not so bad, it will settle the bases for the incoming years. You do not need to learn the last programming language, the last framework or the last tool to do whatever you want to do. You need to learn about algorithms, OOP, methods, structures, including mathematic skills that will save your *** many times :-D That is why an academic course cannot change each year or each 5 years to adapt it to the last fashion in programming language. Take C/C++, learn from it, program on it, go as deep as you can, spend endless hour twiking and tuning everything and after that I assure you other languages will come as easy as ABC

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

WolforthJ — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 08:57:20 GMT

There are just too many things wrong with this article to address. I can't argue that the perception that programming is dead is true, and I can look around at fellow programmers and see why. I see my job as getting business people tools to collect, then get to, their data. If a pre-packaged tool can do that cheaper than I can by writing code, that's great. Many coders, dba or otherwise, see those pre-packaged tools as a threat. That's where they shoot their own foot because if they worked with those tools, they would be seen as valuable members of a team, instead of people tyring to protect the job they learned to do 20 years ago. Academia probably needs to change too. If I were starting a project that I knew would take 4 to complete, I would have to plan on technology changes that would occur in those 4 years. I don't think schools look ahead like that.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Tony Savoie — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 07:53:58 GMT

IT has been dieing since IT began. Every new technology is the end of the world. Saw it with client/server replacing big iron in glass rooms, saw it with the interweb and thin clients, saw it with outsourcing, now hearing the same crap regarding omg "The Cloud".There will always be a requirement for true Comp Sci people. Do you need that to succeed in IT? No, not at all. There are other skills that are just as valuable, creativity for one. Plain old common sense is another. The shocking thing to me is the dumbing down of IT. Everything is fine when things are running well, but the second something goes wrong these people are at a complete loss. The bar is so low its almost comical.When you ask a "developer" to troubleshoot a bug in a system *they wrote* and the answer you get is "I dont know, the computer just did it" something is terribly wrong. I should never have explain to a programmer that computers dont just do stuff, they are programmed to do stuff, you are the programmer, therefore the computer is doing *exactly* what you told it to do, right or wrong, on purpose or inadvertently. Anybody that thinks computers are magic should not be any where near the IT industry.Can you tell you've hit a nerve? :)

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

JoeA — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 07:37:24 GMT

I earned a Computer Science degree in the early 80's. Back then it was less about programming and more about the theory of computability, languages, operating systems, compilers, and hardware. Even the nascent relational theory, networking, and AI was taught to seniors.While programming was a required part of it, the goal was to train those that would design new OSs, languages and database systems. There was a lot going on back then in these areas- but now fewer people work on the lower level systems and there is more demand for mere programmers, and less need for understanding of the underlying systems.That said - if you want to distinguish yourself, you need to know what is going on in the layers below your code - and that's where the real computer science is happening.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Question Guy — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 07:35:09 GMT

Yes, its dead. Other ways to get into programming or DBA. My wife and I are programmers. She took the punishing route.And C was the most terrible class I took in college. (Just my opinion) But working with memory and understanding pointers was a waste of time.(again, just my opinion) It was punishment for the sake of punishment. Out of 30 students, I was the only one to get one of the assignments done. And only because I had a friend who programmed in C that practically did it for me. Of couse, unless you actually want to work with memory or pointers.To be honest, if one wanted to change the world, a class in proper database design should be required in high school and college. Until then, no real progress will be made in this world. You think I am kidding, but I'm not.I went the Psycholgy and Criminal Justice major route with business minor, then MIS as a master. Then a slew of books in my free time in order to pass MS exams. I would have never made it through CS.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

crostenbach — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 07:09:46 GMT

I wish I had a nickel for every time someone told me programming was dead. Back in the 70's CASE was going to make programmers obsolete. At one time I was told spreadsheets were going to lead to the demise of programming because the average user could arrive at their own answers. The list goes on.The best argument I heard was when an "expert" panel at an early personal computer show pronounced that COBOL programmers would soon be extinct because all high school students would soon be graduating knowing how to program. An elderly gentleman (to me, I was in my early 20's) rose and said that wasn't so. He said, "Look around you, everyone in this room knows how to read and write. But how many of you are going to write novels?"I've never been a fan of a computer science education. Certainly there is an advantage to being taught, but I want programmers who want to learn instead. The best hires I've made have been people who did not have a degree but had been self taught. That indicated to me the desire to learn, even if it is on their own.One time I had this conversation with an accountant who wondered why programmers were necessary, hadn't we written everything yet. I reminded him that programming is less than a century old, while accounting was thousands of years old. But what I thought was my best response back to him was, "Who programmed cellphones before they existed?"My most fun and challenging projects have been when I worked in languages that did already have all the good stuff preprogrammed (spoolers, communications, math, etc.), unlike today when you spend most of your time learning the APIs of the packages that have already been written. But there are plenty of libraries that can be yet written.We still have challenges ahead, multi-cores are here to stay and efficiently using them is still not baked into the languages.The world has not caught on to the information age. Industrial Age thinking still prevails. A friend related a story from his work where a VP had bragged about how they planned to add off-shoring in both India and China. He thought that at the end of the day the programmers present would transmit their code to the next team who would continue coding and then ship it off to the next. He said, "Just imagine what your code will look like when you show up the next day." :crazy:And be honest, we still have a long way to go on developing the human-computer interface.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Gary Varga — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 06:01:08 GMT

[quote][b]yazalpizar_ (3/28/2012)[/b][hr]One can learn to program and be a hell of good programmer without ever stuying computer science or anythig related to it....BUT be sure that this person will study by his own everything he needs and even more. Finishing a full 4-5 years of computer science will not turn you into Alan Turing, Linux Torvalds or any other, but will help to set the bases. Again, those bases can be settled up by your own, maybe in less time, maybe already targeting a known goal, sql developer, sysadmin, dba, .net developer, etc. But just knowing all the .net framework and all the commands does not make a good programmer. Studying and practice is the key to success, without spending hours studying and then applying that knowledge, no way that person can turn into a good developer/dba/etc.[/quote]I agree that it can be done outside of an academic institute or other structured learning methods but this issue is twofold: 1) People don't know what they need to learn without decent guidance. 2) People just don't do this (the majority that I come across anyway).There are always exceptions of which I think that you will find a higher percentage amongst contributors to forums such as this.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

yazalpizar_ — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 05:47:25 GMT

One can learn to program and be a hell of good programmer without ever stuying computer science or anythig related to it....BUT be sure that this person will study by his own everything he needs and even more. Finishing a full 4-5 years of computer science will not turn you into Alan Turing, Linux Torvalds or any other, but will help to set the bases. Again, those bases can be settled up by your own, maybe in less time, maybe already targeting a known goal, sql developer, sysadmin, dba, .net developer, etc. But just knowing all the .net framework and all the commands does not make a good programmer. Studying and practice is the key to success, without spending hours studying and then applying that knowledge, no way that person can turn into a good developer/dba/etc.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Gary Varga — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:58:10 GMT

I have seen recent graduates (last 10 years) with a distinct lack of understanding of programming fundamentals. These people were writing software!!!There is a reason that I was taught different languages through my 8 years of full time Computer Science education. Different languages solve different types of problems and also show different ways of doing things. Some of the simpler free form languages, such as Pascal, make for an excellent basis in learning to program as it allows for discussions and demonstrations on the importance of naming, code structure, comments, format etc. As a previous contributor said, C/C++ (amongst others) allows for performance tuning, memory management and algorithm evaluation. Nowadays I would expect to see OS scripting taking a more formal approach (*nix shells and PowerShell should not be considered anything short as being part of a systems administration or specific scripting module). Teaching someone to do a simple type of application development closely coupled with a particular framework is very short sighted.Programming is not going anywhere. I have heard that no-one was going to be coding in the West for decades now. Demand has not really decreased. It will if there are no decent coders left. On the job learning is fine but there needs to be an academic foundation too. I am not prescribing full time education but I believe that that too has its place.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

IceDread — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 04:31:38 GMT

Yes - It's dead.I'd never recommend someone to learn computer engineering so he can work as a dev or dba etc. In the end it's all about what you want, where will you earn decent money and have a fulfilling job. You can earn better at a lesser effort in other jobs, so why go for this? I personally like it, but as time changes and IT moves towards lower cost countries sooner or later that will affect us a lot more than it does today.Back to the money and effort. Two friends bailed on computer engineering after one year because they found it too heavy, these were normal people, not better or worse than anyone else. However, as economy engineers they could study at 200% speed and still find it easier than 100% speed studying for computer engineer. I do not believe there is a future for this job, it's already dead. You can do well within it, and I think change will come slowly, so it might take 20 or 50 years before salaries really starts to drop as india and china and east countries competes efficiently. But why would you spend as much effort in this job unless you love it and do it for joy when you can earn better and do less in other jobs?

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

yazalpizar_ — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 02:57:41 GMT

These days I found self called developers or programmers that don't know the meaning of OOP and C or C++ are "ancient" languages, nevermore used :w00t: Study computer science, it will pay off.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

honza.mf — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 02:47:15 GMT

All i really need to know i learned in the first year of programming course in the college.I learned little bit more next years, especially Simula 67 (3rd year).Technology is far away now, but the principles are the same.

RE: Is Computer Science Dead?

Cheetah — Wed, 28 Mar 2012 00:53:46 GMT

I never really thought about it that way, but it is so true. Being a DBA can sometimes be outright boring and that's why I still do programming on top of being a DBA. It just amazes me how all my old programming techniques fit right into these new frameworks (well just .Net as that is the only one I currently use.Yes, my days with Pascal (and Assembler:hehe:) taught me a lot and yes, programmers should start learning by using one of these 3rd generation languages but that is a big ask these days.

Is Computer Science Dead?

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Tue, 27 Mar 2012 22:07:08 GMT

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