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RE: The Employment Contract

Jeff Moden — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 09:06:16 GMT

Considering that folks in HR, hiring managers, and many direct managers don't actually know what a DBA does (especially a "Hybrid" DBA) or the value they bring to an organization, I'd rather them not even try to spell out what I'm supposed to do. If a DBA (regardless of type of DBA) doesn't know what to do and it needs to be spelled out, then that's the wrong person for the job. ;-)

RE: The Employment Contract

Revenant — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 11:42:14 GMT

[quote][b]mike-939611 (12/10/2011)[/b][hr]. . . For example, Microsoft push launch dates back and sometimes (it feels like) they would rather deliver incomplete projects rather than miss a deadline. . . .[/quote]The latter is called "launch with engineering debt."

RE: The Employment Contract

mike-939611 — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 02:01:35 GMT

Thanks for all the replies.JJ B: I think you are right. It describes my situation and even though I knew what should be done, I have never been able to articulate it into clear cut words but thanks because that all makes sense to me.I do hear of IT projects/Software etc getting delayed and deadlines for launch not being met and I wonder if it happens all the time in IT/Web Development etc and also if it is because of the complexity of the projects and the complexity of IT itself. For example, Microsoft push launch dates back and sometimes (it feels like) they would rather deliver incomplete projects rather than miss a deadline.I think half of the issue in my situation is that the managers have openly admitted to me that they have no idea what I do nor how to measure what I do and certainly don't know whats involved; they are not IT guys. For instance, I delivered a large web application for the company and after 3 months of release the boss complained because he said it wasn't installed on his computer yet! (Inner dialogue at the time was: Its a web application 'some profanity', just open up you browser and go to the company website!) Deadlines and project delivery is all they have.

RE: The Employment Contract

gsamione — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 17:56:34 GMT

I do not want my job responsibilities dictated to me in a written contract. This can severely limit a developers, DBA, or Network Administrators ability to learn new technologies or even to perform their dictated tasks effectively, etc.I have been developing software for over 28 Years and feel strongly that if we were getting contracts when hired this would limit our ability to even perform our duties as dictated in the contract.If Employers start creating Contracts for IT personnel, I will consider looking for a different career.Thanks - A Concerned IT Professional

RE: The Employment Contract

JJ B — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 14:23:55 GMT

Craig: Sorry to hear you went through that. What a perfect example of what I was trying to say. It's sad that this kind of thing happens, but I'm not surprised that it took so little time for someone to have the perfect example on-hand. Sounds like you knew exactly what to do in that situation.

RE: The Employment Contract

Evil Kraig F — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 14:15:18 GMT

[quote][b]JJ B (12/9/2011)[/b][hr]But what about "higher" tasks? My point is that it is nice if a job description/contract could contain wording that indicates a general level of expertise that you are being paid for. So, if you start doing a lot of work that goes way above what the position originally intended, you can make an argument that you should start getting paid more/moved to a higher classification. If the job description is: "Do everything we say for the next 20 years, no matter how your skills progress, but we will always call you a Tech 1 and pay you accordingly", how fair is that?[/quote]It's not, and I've fought and lost on that front.An example: I was hired as an Access developer early in my career, and I was hungry so I took it at the low-mid end of what would be normal. I performed said tasks well and then they found out I had SQL Server experience. I devoted the next six months to a series of SQL Development that expanded my abilities and knowledge 20 fold under the tutelage of my mentor, who I still praise as one of the most patient men I've ever met, nevermind his knowledge.When raises and discussions came around at year end, maximum cost of living raise was 3%. Not only did they expect me to continue on at a higher level position keeping their largest client profitably happy, they refused to change my position and only gave me a 2% raise. We went our separate ways.The vaguer the concept, the more understanding both parties need to have about expected duties at which levels. As a contractor, I find occassionally I need to enforce these. I don't take on DBA II positions and then when they realize my skillsets perform architecture work without a re-negotiation. There's always work out there, you just need to be willing to go get it instead of suffering under your current management if they decide that vagueness = whatever the hell I want.

RE: The Employment Contract

OzYbOi d(-_-)b — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 13:27:38 GMT

I'm not one who likes every little detail spelled out in ink, but there can be issues if there is too little outlined as well.I have a middle of the road, semi-vague contract right now. That works well for me in my current position because of the project I am working, along with the chemistry that exists between the manager and technical leads. There is a great deal of respect and there have been no unreasonable expectations. The duties and work environment have been reasonably inline with that described during the hiring process. So in this case, I am quite happy! :-DBUT... I have opted for positions where the contract was very vague and so I found myself forced into roles that I certainly did not sign up for. The only saving grace, and inline with the recent discussion on compensation, the $$ and vacation package I had negotiated made it bearable! :cool: :-P

RE: The Employment Contract

JJ B — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 11:14:58 GMT

On job descriptions: I totally agree that a completely locked down job description would be no fun and not all that practical for the business. However, most people seem to be thinking about "lower" job tasks as a concern. In other words, "I am always happy to jump in and do the filing when we are in a crunch - as long as I get the same pay." But what about "higher" tasks? My point is that it is nice if a job description/contract could contain wording that indicates a general level of expertise that you are being paid for. So, if you start doing a lot of work that goes way above what the position originally intended, you can make an argument that you should start getting paid more/moved to a higher classification. If the job description is: "Do everything we say for the next 20 years, no matter how your skills progress, but we will always call you a Tech 1 and pay you accordingly", how fair is that?Yes, you can look for another job as your skills progress, but I feel that contracts should be fair to both parties. And it is not fair for an organization to take advantage of current employees. If a person originally hired as a janitor starts doing DBA work, the janitor should get DBA pay and not have a contract that says "and any job duty we need you to do".

RE: The Employment Contract

JJ B — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 11:05:15 GMT

[quote]... I am not sure how to handle this issue (and if anyone has any ideas I would like to hear about them) ... [/quote]Mike: Here's what I would do. Put something along the following lines in your 6 month plan: "Work on ad-hoc organizational priority tasks as needed by our organization. These would be tasks similar to what I did last bla bla bla for bla bla in bla." Or whatever wording makes sense. In other words, schedule these unscheduled tasks. You might reserve 2-3 month's worth of time in your 6 month plan for these "ad-hoc priority tasks." Then fill the remaining time in your 6 month plan with planned tasks.Then it will be up to you, in coordination with your boss, to make sure that only 2-3 months worth of ad-hoc tasks make priority and that you still have time for the named scheduled tasks. Don't promise to do an ad-hoc task if you don't have time for it. If other people insist that an ad-hoc task has priority over your plan and you have used up your time for ad-hoc tasks, then tell your boss that you can't do both. Let your boss (head of agency, etc.) decide which she/he wants you to do. You haven't made any promises yet beyond what is in the plan. So, make it your bosses "bad" if the plan can't be met because she/he directed you to do something else.

RE: The Employment Contract

TravisDBA — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 11:04:23 GMT

I'll do anything short of moving heavy furniture,boxes, or machines around. I have a bad back and I stated that when I started. That is what Facilities Management is for anyway. I have drawn the line on cleaning up the bathroom in the past though. That is what cleaning people are for. If the company is so cheap they can't afford a cleaning person, the responsibility of cleaning up someone elses urine should not fall to a DBA IMHO. Took that one to HR and actually won that case and the person(s) requesting me to do it was reprimanded. :-D

RE: The Employment Contract

Stuart Davies — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 10:58:53 GMT

RE: The Employment Contract

Elliott Whitlow — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 10:26:52 GMT

[quote][b]richj-826679 (12/9/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]GilaMonster (12/9/2011)[/b][hr]I've worked with someone in the past who insisted on everything in her job responsibilities be written down and spelled out exactly with no 'and other duties' listed. She used that for all sorts of fun work-avoidance tricks[/quote]GAH! I have great disdain for the whole "It's not my job" mentality. I've yet to encounter one of those individuals that I considered a decent person, much less a decent employee or team member. Their attitude is one of entitlement and/or over-inflated self-worth. But in some cases, it's been fostered by management whose short-sightedness breed contempt instead of cooperation and no one wins.I can't help but think of a stereotypical labor union / management relationship, but I don't know if that's justified or just my own experience-based predilection.[/quote]I learned long ago (decades) that the phrase "its not my job" could equal "I aint got a job anymore", never happened to me but I saw it several times. Your job is more or less what your employer says your job is.. There are only a few cases where I would REALLY push back. Like I was hired for office work and you want me to go out and run a punch press (with no previous experience), not to mention the punch press guy gets paid a lot more than you do.. Or you want me to regularly perform a dangerous job and we never discussed that before.There are many things that are not really my job but I do them anyway. Perfect example, we have a very good desktop guy, and sometimes he gets REALLY busy or he is away from his desk and people looking for him will fall back to me and ask for help. It isn't my job to help them, BUT if I am at a stopping point and aren't hip deep in something I am going to TRY and help them. But a phrase that will not cross my lips is "its not my job"..CEWII

RE: The Employment Contract

Revenant — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 10:24:58 GMT

This editorial made me re-read my six-page contract. The only duty spelled out is to "provide technical leadership."I like it. ;-)

RE: The Employment Contract

richj-826679 — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 09:08:05 GMT

[quote][b]GilaMonster (12/9/2011)[/b][hr]I've worked with someone in the past who insisted on everything in her job responsibilities be written down and spelled out exactly with no 'and other duties' listed. She used that for all sorts of fun work-avoidance tricks[/quote]GAH! I have great disdain for the whole "It's not my job" mentality. I've yet to encounter one of those individuals that I considered a decent person, much less a decent employee or team member. Their attitude is one of entitlement and/or over-inflated self-worth. But in some cases, it's been fostered by management whose short-sightedness breed contempt instead of cooperation and no one wins.I can't help but think of a stereotypical labor union / management relationship, but I don't know if that's justified or just my own experience-based predilection.All fired up now.... :-)Rich

RE: The Employment Contract

GilaMonster — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 07:51:24 GMT

[quote][b]Steve Jones - SSC Editor (12/9/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]IceDread (12/9/2011)[/b][hr]Well.. I would probably had said no a year ago. This year however, my boss told me he was thinking about having me take over some share point tasks as well since the consultant doing it is leaving. That I am not so keen on doing. It's a product that might be replaced in 3-10 years and it's not a smooth product to work with at all..[/quote]I wouldn't be afraid of Sharepoint. I can't see that thing ever being replaced. It seems to spread without limits in most organizations.[/quote]Agreed. Learn to tame Sharepoint and you'll always have a job (no, it's not a nice product, but that doesn't stop everyone and their cat having a sharepoint site)

RE: The Employment Contract

IceDread — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 07:43:22 GMT

[quote][b]Steve Jones - SSC Editor (12/9/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]IceDread (12/9/2011)[/b][hr]Well.. I would probably had said no a year ago. This year however, my boss told me he was thinking about having me take over some share point tasks as well since the consultant doing it is leaving. That I am not so keen on doing. It's a product that might be replaced in 3-10 years and it's not a smooth product to work with at all..[/quote]I wouldn't be afraid of Sharepoint. I can't see that thing ever being replaced. It seems to spread without limits in most organizations.[/quote]Hmm maybe I should reevaluate my position there and perhaps give it a try. I do like variation in tasks.. but I can not say I've heard that many great things about Sharepoint.

RE: The Employment Contract

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 07:42:53 GMT

[quote][b]Evil Kraig F (12/9/2011)[/b][hr]We might have a slightly different perspective on this since I once was a janitor. You want to pay me my contract rates to grab a mop and take out the trash? Ummmmm.... sold.I call myself a million dollar janitor on occassion when I get inquiries as to do I mind doing mundane work instead of the 'interesting stuff'. I'm down with the within my area of expertise, I'm certainly not feeling qualified to go do some OOP integration to EF and getting rated on it.You want me to haul around Accounting's computers and get all the wiring re-hooked up in their new office while you pay me my current rate? 'eh, sure. Mind if I use a mail cart?[/quote]I'm in agreement. There have been times I've been asked to restock copy paper, move machines around the data center, even build network cables from scratch. At DBA rates, I'm happy to do it.

RE: The Employment Contract

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 07:40:43 GMT

[quote][b]IceDread (12/9/2011)[/b][hr]Well.. I would probably had said no a year ago. This year however, my boss told me he was thinking about having me take over some share point tasks as well since the consultant doing it is leaving. That I am not so keen on doing. It's a product that might be replaced in 3-10 years and it's not a smooth product to work with at all..[/quote]I wouldn't be afraid of Sharepoint. I can't see that thing ever being replaced. It seems to spread without limits in most organizations.

RE: The Employment Contract

Tony++ — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 07:32:06 GMT

I'd vote no contract of work. I am where I am today because my jobs never stick to a list of duties - I get to see technologies outside of my job, meet people outside my department, I get to learn soft skills that my job doesn't demand. One of the most valuable career skills has been making myself available when the demand comes for someone to do something different, and holding to a job list cuts off that option.Without it, I wouldn't have ever touched SQL back in 1996, I'd still be an RPG developer in my little niche on AS400, I probably wouldn't be a DBA today and loving what I do.

RE: The Employment Contract

sburcombe — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 07:28:04 GMT

I've always had a contract, and they usually have about a medium level of vagueness. While I don't like being restricted, there's always the "other duties as required" clause that allows for some freedom. I also set annual goals and objectives, but between me and my boss, we try to make these SMART, so although they can be a bit of a stretch, they're also achievable.

RE: The Employment Contract

GilaMonster — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 07:26:23 GMT

I've worked with someone in the past who insisted on everything in her job responsibilities be written down and spelled out exactly with no 'and other duties' listed. She used that for all sorts of fun work-avoidance tricks- Walking out of the office in the middle of a server-down crisis because it wasn't her night to be on call and she'd already worked her 8 hours. The rest of the team worked til 4am.- Noticing but doing absolutely nothing about a failed job one night when on call because said job ran on a server that was not in her list of monitored servers, Never mind that the job in question wrote some files out that a critical job on one of her monitored servers needed later in the night. Net result DBA team manager gets call from angry business user at 5am- Refusing to assist with a project when she was the only team member who wasn't overloaded with work because it wasn't part of her duties.There's no place in the DBA/Dev world for those kind of shenanigans. Declining work because it's way out of your area of expertise is one thing. Declining just because it's not listed in black and white on a piece of paper, sorry, no.

RE: The Employment Contract

Stuart Davies — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 07:19:36 GMT

[quote][b]richardmgreen1 (12/9/2011)[/b][hr]I have signed a contract but, probably like most people's, it's a little vague.I like it that way.I always make sure there's a line that basically reads "and anything other job as necessary" in my contracts. It gives me a lot of scope for doing other things when I have the time.I think contracts are a good idea for working hours, working conditions and things like that, but specifying actual duties may be a step too far.[/quote]I am in a similar position, but the contract references the job title, when I joined I was SQL Server Specialist.This then gives a few more specifics but nothing concrete just gives systems supported and the like.Recently all the jobs were renamed and regraded I am now Application DBA specialist (what ever that is) and the job description is so vague as to be useless.

RE: The Employment Contract

keith.gerritsen 82264 — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 07:09:52 GMT

If I'm asked to hand-collate or insert the "TPS Report" cover sheet in break points the middle of 2000 pages already printed, because the client output has to go out today, absolutely. It's happened before, there's no room for prima donnas if a responsible manager has made their decision to prioritize work, and I'm asked to work out of area or do something one might consider menial. I wouldn't want it to be routine.What I would absolutely insist upon signing on paper is if there are any airy promises at the negotiation or offer stage about comp time, flex time, work from home, or if there are periodic emergency or on-call schedules etc. Written up or no-go.

RE: The Employment Contract

jcrawf02 — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 07:07:04 GMT

I think I would originally have said that I don't care if it's in the employment contract, as long as the goals set for me that affect my evaluation are clearly spelled out. In other words, I don't need all-encompassing descriptions of what I do, as long as I get time to do the important things, and we (me + management) have agreed on what those important things are.However, it would be nice if my job description actually listed all of the things that I actually do, so I could get credit for them when I move positions. It would also help to backfill the position. Perhaps all those crazy DBA postings that do way more than a DBA should be expected to do have evolved from people doing "other duties as assigned"? If every job actually listed what we do, more people might realize what is acceptable?

RE: The Employment Contract

JPluchino — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 06:48:08 GMT

Technology positions require knowledgeable professionals working together to meet goals and objectives and to do that it requires team work. Just keep your eyes on the ball. Do whatever it takes whenever it is necessary and pray that you are working for a boss and an organization that has integrity. I have been blessed to be in exactly that environment throughout most of my career. I say "most" because when I found that I was not, I moved on. Merry Christmas to all and to all a Good Night.

RE: The Employment Contract

Bob Thiele — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 06:40:04 GMT

I don't want a contract specifically stating what I am to do or not do. My job description says that, but it only covers about 10% of what I do. My title is Oracle DBA and if I was limited to what is in my job description I wouldn't be able to switch to SQL Server as the company does. I do have annual performance reviews, however what my stated goals are rarely what I actually get assigned to do. Some tasks I would rather not have to do, but others have let me expand my knowledge base in completely different areas. You need to take the good with the bad.Having management that understands how valuable your contributions are gives you the flexibility to work on the things that best help the company and your co-workers. If management doesn't understand what you bring to the table and doesn't care or you are a poor performer I can see where a contract can give you a minimum set of tasks to keep your job. Personally I would much rather be given the freedom to learn and explore than be locked down.

RE: The Employment Contract

dstinson-1008865 — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 06:36:05 GMT

No way would I want to sign a contract for this.First, this particular issue has never been a problem anywhere I've worked.Second, I work for a large company and we're already strangled by red tape and bureaucratic policies. We don't need yet another thing to take attention away from actually getting real work done.

RE: The Employment Contract

P Jones — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 05:09:37 GMT

Certainly in my last two posts I have had job specifications consisting of short clauses covering my responsibilities such as "Assist in maintaining and safeguarding the backup and recovery routines, testing and enhancing as appropriate"in both cases the final clause is "Other duties commensurate with the grade and post as detailed by the Line Manager". In my previous employment this was always item 10 in our job specs and whenever we had to do anything unusual we just said "Clause 10 again" - usually with a grin.

RE: The Employment Contract

mike-939611 — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 03:43:31 GMT

Hi,I have to sign a 6 month work programme which lists out what I am going to achieve in this time. I invariably miss the deadlines for these and have been regarded as over promising and under delivering. I do feel like it is pretty harsh considering with all the other work outside the scope of my work programme comes across my desk. The fact that each 6 month period I get 9-10 months worth of work come across my desk forcing me to prioritize and ultimately let someone down in the office. So collectively amongst the staff, I have over promised and under delivered which gives the appearance that I am not good at my job.So, what goes into my 6 month work programme doesn't take any other work under consideration and as mentioned above, sometimes the best work achieved is being reactive to those really good ideas that help people in their job and the business even though it is not in the work programme.I am not sure how to handle this issue (and if anyone has any ideas I would like to hear about them) but I do believe sticking to the work programme only and ignoring any other tasks is a failure. I know I am managed badly but my thoughts are that the most important/essential work should be prioritized whether it is in your contracted work programme or not. After all, we do what we do for the greater good of the company, not just to tick a box.

RE: The Employment Contract

Evil Kraig F — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 02:35:19 GMT

[quote][b]andagr (12/9/2011)[/b][hr]I would not like to have my duties spelled out exactly because I like different challenges [i]as long as it's within my area of expertise[/i], if I were asked to clean the toilet I would say no. If all duties were explicit for all jobs then we would have no accidental DBA's ;-).[/quote]We might have a slightly different perspective on this since I once was a janitor. You want to pay me my contract rates to grab a mop and take out the trash? Ummmmm.... sold.I call myself a million dollar janitor on occassion when I get inquiries as to do I mind doing mundane work instead of the 'interesting stuff'. I'm down with the within my area of expertise, I'm certainly not feeling qualified to go do some OOP integration to EF and getting rated on it.You want me to haul around Accounting's computers and get all the wiring re-hooked up in their new office while you pay me my current rate? 'eh, sure. Mind if I use a mail cart?

RE: The Employment Contract

IceDread — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 01:57:48 GMT

Well.. I would probably had said no a year ago. This year however, my boss told me he was thinking about having me take over some share point tasks as well since the consultant doing it is leaving. That I am not so keen on doing. It's a product that might be replaced in 3-10 years and it's not a smooth product to work with at all..

RE: The Employment Contract

andagr — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 01:31:33 GMT

I would not like to have my duties spelled out exactly because I like different challenges [i]as long as it's within my area of expertise[/i], if I were asked to clean the toilet I would say no. If all duties were explicit for all jobs then we would have no accidental DBA's ;-).

RE: The Employment Contract

richardmgreen1 — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 00:27:52 GMT

I have signed a contract but, probably like most people's, it's a little vague.I like it that way.I always make sure there's a line that basically reads "and anything other job as necessary" in my contracts. It gives me a lot of scope for doing other things when I have the time.I think contracts are a good idea for working hours, working conditions and things like that, but specifying actual duties may be a step too far.

RE: The Employment Contract

Evil Kraig F — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 00:06:38 GMT

I personally do not want my job duties to be spelled out that completely. Most of the more interesting work I've done has been because someone dropped by my desk and asked 'Hey, got a second? I've got this idea...'Add to that I'm not sure software is ready to be equivalent to assembly line work yet. One of these days we'll probably have enough standardized code (delimitedsplit8k comes to mind as an example) of methodology that it'll simply be recognizing the necessary components and assembling them, but we're not there yet. Data would need to be standardized before the tools applied to them could be. Imagine if every bolt you ran into had a different number of sides on the head.I think as long as there's a reasonable understanding of the work to be done and the time expectations to perform it, things will muddle along just fine.

The Employment Contract

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 21:43:20 GMT

Comments posted to this topic are about the item [B]The Employment Contract[/B]