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RE: Where are all the MVBs?

Jeff Moden — Fri, 07 Oct 2011 06:18:53 GMT

IIRC, SQLServerCentral.com tried a Wiki when they switched forum software many years back. Basically, it was an "unmanaged" Wiki where anyone could make additions/changes/deletions.My opinion about public "unmanaged" Wiki's is they're just not worth it. Just like posts on a forum, a lot of bad and flat out wrong information can be entered by anyone.I'm cool with public "Managed" Wiki's (like WikiPedia) but they do take time to manage if you want to do it right. SOMEONE has to review submittals for technical accuracy and readability. SOMEONE has to make sure there are no copyright infringements. SOMEONE has to check the grammar. SOMEONE actually has to setup and run any code submitted. SOMEONE has to check any and all citations to make sure they're appropriate. SOMEONE has to check for out of date information for each version and revision of SQL Server.It's a big job...

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

Brandon Leach — Thu, 06 Oct 2011 12:34:29 GMT

Seems like we agree Wiki is the way to go. So what do we need in the meantime to put something up and get things rollingDo we want to self host temporarily? if so we'd needHosting?database?Wiki software? I'm sure we can get something free for a community resourceWhat else?I could donate space and bandwidth from my personal hosting, plus a 10gig sql server 2008 db. But we wouldn't have ALTER permission on the DB.We could also as was mentioned go the google docs route but that seems somewhat cumbersome and migrating to a wiki could be difficult later on.

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

sjimmo — Thu, 06 Oct 2011 09:58:42 GMT

[quote]Jeffa lot of DBA's have become like old folks (a serious compliment, actually). They really know how to get things done but everyone thinks they're hard of hearing and possibly mute. They're really not... they're just tired of listening to stupid things and speaking to deaf ears[/quote]Overall - GREAT COMMENTS. I am in one of these positions right now, and found this morning that it is about to get dramatically worse.Direct supervisor, when we talk gets that glazed over deer in the headlights look, while his super knows much more than all in all areas.Latest discussions - why you can't treat a 2 Tb DB the same as a 100GB DB.:w00t:As they say - onward and upward:-)

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

MonkeyMan — Thu, 06 Oct 2011 09:57:12 GMT

A quick option, and one that would allow exporting to other Wiki software at a later date, is Zoho Wiki. The main drawback of this option is their pricing model which only allows 3 users for free. However, giving them a free add on the site might convince them to allow free access to a larger group. They could say no, but we could ask.

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

GSquared — Thu, 06 Oct 2011 09:35:38 GMT

I haven't used Google docs much, but it sounds like it might be a way to get started.How would you migrate from docs to wiki?

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

Tony Davis — Thu, 06 Oct 2011 08:35:29 GMT

Thanks for all the comments and sorry, in turn, for being slow to respond. I've been looking into how quickly we could set up a small wiki area on SQLServerCentral, and the answer seems to be "not very", so I'm wondering about alternative "low barrier" ways to test out this idea.I am open to all suggestions, as I'd really like to at least try to get some mometum behind this one. Maybe a simple Google Docs area, to start off with, where we anyone interested could upload and edit documents? Probably we jsut need a space to try out a few things while, behind the scenes, I work at getting a wiki area on SSC?Cheers,Tony.

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

David.Poole — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 14:06:20 GMT

[quote]"This report, by its very length, defends itself against the risk of being read." (Winston Churchill)[/quote]The problem with policies and procedures is summed up by the Winston Churchill quote above.I think an intranet/wiki is a good place to start but there are a few gotchas. It is quite a skill to be able to do the following:-1. Write something that is both useful and easily digestible2. Structure information so it is easy to navigate3. Categorise information so others find it is easy to findWhen I write wiki entries I take the following approach1. Start with a basic page that summarises the key points2. Always include a "last updated date" and "last updated author" at the head of the document below the title3. Always include a table-of-contents (preferably hyperlinked to the subject headers) and "quick links" before the first subheading4. Always give a concise description of what the document is for so the reader can determine if it is going to contain something useful5. Hyperlink to documents giving more detailed information about the key subjects.6. On a child page always have a link back to the parent in the "quick links" if you don't have a bread crumb trail.

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

scivies — Tue, 27 Sep 2011 23:04:54 GMT

Hi Everyone, I've read through this article and the varying posts from personal experience, work trends to wiki suggestions. It seems to me that this article has presented the same thing that it is written about, discussion with no solution. It would seem to me, as a productive stand point that if each individual would've posted one template on a specific topic i.e. backups, security, etc then the solutions for having good overall practice and policies would've been answered. Just as a thought. I'm currently going through this very process and it is as we all know "chains and whips, whips and chains." as I make my way through this process I'll begin to post my templates. Though they may not be spectacular maybe someone out there will find them useful.

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

GSquared — Tue, 27 Sep 2011 06:57:21 GMT

[quote][b]Brandon Leach (9/27/2011)[/b][hr]What about changes as time went on. As things change would the wiki be versioned? or just updated to keep in line with the most recent?[/quote]That'd be up to the authors and admins/editors, I guess.Most wiki software keeps version tracking.

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

Brandon Leach — Tue, 27 Sep 2011 06:45:51 GMT

GSquared, I think you've laid it out nicely. What about changes as time went on. As things change would the wiki be versioned? or just updated to keep in line with the most recent?

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

GSquared — Mon, 26 Sep 2011 08:26:44 GMT

While I agree with the cynical bits about never getting agreement from the exact people who are the biggest block in getting the job done, I also think Tony's request for an outline of policy areas, for new and aspiring DBAs, is a good idea.I also think a wiki would be the easiest way to get it done.Could start with just "you'll need policies on backups, downtime, hardware requirements/configuration, security/auditing, DAL/DB APIs (procs vs inline code vs isolated DAL), coding standards, data access (possibly including PCI compliance), data retention (PCI again), patching, dev-to-prod path, on-call schedules, source control/change tracking, and beer popsicles", just to start out. Easy to expand from there, since I'm sure I missed a few of the top-level things. With those in place, it would be a matter of stubbing out some suggested policies based on shop-size, et al. If each policy is defined on the main page, and links to details, it would be easy to read and learn from.Make it operate under a beerware license, so anyone can copy-and-paste into their own document for internal editing and use, and you're good to go.I think anything other than a wiki is going to require too much editorial oversite to coordinate. It can be locked down to approved authors only, and probably should be, but there should be open comments (moderated, of course).

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

Saravanan-429478 — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:58:55 GMT

Well put Jeff :-) You had mentioned most of the items that I have been through last 10 years. After few "told you so"; I am now being called in few applications in the design phase. Good improvement.I would say, DBA's has to be involved right from the design phase or the project kick off phase. Most of the instances, I had been called when there were system slowness or not working, but in my company things are changing a bit after few years of shouting:)DBA's need Wiki's so we can point out to others of standard best practices as well as recheck them when needed. Addition to best practice list[b]Out of gate monitoring on the entire system and SQL Server, immaterial of the critcality or availability needs Retirement plan for server[/b]

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

MonkeyMan — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 05:33:59 GMT

I don't know if SSC could add a Wiki to the many useful categories already present but I've used Zoho Wiki for my own personal good practice notes for years. It takes effort but I use it regularly. Perhaps SSC can add some Wiki functionality.I agree about good not best practice. Having worked for big and small organisations as well as not-for-profits and corporates I've had to adjust to reflect the needs and budgets of the organisation.

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

Jeff Moden — Sat, 24 Sep 2011 16:25:40 GMT

[quote][b]GilaMonster (9/24/2011)[/b][hr]That's one nice thing about been a consultant.[/quote]Heh... and, oh, how I miss that. And, yes... I agree... the wrong people would read the book. After all, the particular "Managers" who really need to read such a thing won't because they already "know" it all.

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

GilaMonster — Sat, 24 Sep 2011 15:25:51 GMT

[quote][b]Jeff Moden (9/24/2011)[/b][hr]To put my own slant on what she said, I believe that a lot of excellent DBA's have simply tired of the fight with stupid people (as in people who don't know better but won't listen, either). A DBA has to respect everyone's budgets for both money and time no matter how ridiculous such budgets may seem. I believe that most DBA's worth their salt all have fought and, maybe, still fight for doing things the "right way" such as using stored procedures instead of T-SQL embedded in supposely "managed code".[/quote]That's one nice thing about been a consultant. When the budgets are stupidly low or the client is doing exactly the opposite of what's advised I can walk away and tell them to call me when they get realistic (and I've done that once)[quote]We need a book of real stories where poor planning, shortcuts, and omissions taken to meet some bloody schedule or budget contrived during a conversation on the golf course or in an elevator have caused major catastrophes or serious "Black Eyes" in the eyes of customers. We need them to understand the differences between front-end code and what databases are really all about. We need to scare the hell out of them with the truth that they apparently can't see now.[/quote]I promised Tony an article on just that (based on my time with the "Client from Hell"). Just have to find the time to write it. I doubt it'll change anything though. The people that most need to read it won't or won't believe that it applies to them.One thing I noticed at the Client from Hell was that the IT manager stuck to her snap-decisions and poor processes even when references and books and industry authorities had been quoted and provided that explained (with reasons) that her chosen path was a poor one.I got so sick of her 'time estimations' at one point that I loaned her my copy of "Software Estimation: Demystifying the Black Art" (which, come to think of it, I never got back). I saw her reading it a couple of times. She didn't change.

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

Jeff Moden — Sat, 24 Sep 2011 13:49:11 GMT

[quote]Whereas there are plenty of experts prepared to help with the technology, few seem to come forward when the struggle is against the bureaucracy rather than a recalcitrant server.[/quote]I have to agree with Gail on this one. To put my own slant on what she said, I believe that a lot of excellent DBA's have simply tired of the fight with stupid people (as in people who don't know better but won't listen, either). A DBA has to respect everyone's budgets for both money and time no matter how ridiculous such budgets may seem. I believe that most DBA's worth their salt all have fought and, maybe, still fight for doing things the "right way" such as using stored procedures instead of T-SQL embedded in supposely "managed code".But constant fighting with people who simply will not listen is a bit like water torture... even the best can only take so much. So they either find a job where people will listen (totally negating the need for tools, such as a book, to fight the bureaucracy) or they simply stop fighting because it doesn't get them anywhere even when such tools are available. They resign themselves to people doing stupid things, clean up the mess (they're usually smart enough to expect "the mess" and have prepared for it) when something goes wrong, and maybe even have the pleasure of occasionally telling someone "I told you so."As honorable a task it may seem to be, we don't need yet another book for DBA's. The good ones already know what needs to be done and how to do it. What we really need is a book to teach managers that "If you want it real bad, you'll normally get it that way." We need a book of real stories where poor planning, shortcuts, and omissions taken to meet some bloody schedule or budget contrived during a conversation on the golf course or in an elevator have caused major catastrophes or serious "Black Eyes" in the eyes of customers. We need them to understand the differences between front-end code and what databases are really all about. We need to scare the hell out of them with the truth that they apparently can't see now.To me... a lot of DBA's have become like old folks (a serious compliment, actually). They really know how to get things done but everyone thinks they're hard of hearing and possibly mute. They're really not... they're just tired of listening to stupid things and speaking to deaf ears. ;-)

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

John Kauffman — Sat, 24 Sep 2011 10:07:01 GMT

i came into database work from a pretty indirect path - i'm a former psychologist who had to do some data analysis. Querying data led to tuning queries which led to database optimization. i'm much more knowledgeable about the development end of db work - much of the admin work was in place when i started, so i've never had to design or implement much in that space. Though i've learned enough to do a reasonable job, i'd never claim that i know what i need to document to do a meaningful job of it, or that i know useful, effective means to organize and present that information. I would be happy to participate in a team effort to build out templates.

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

SQLNightOwl — Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:51:46 GMT

I like this idea! Having a body of knowledge that can be applied to these situations will be a great resource.IMHO: Steer away from the term "best practice". There are multiple "good" practices that may be a better choice given the business situation. Some companies will blindly apply the "best practice" and ignore other practices that may be a better fit for their situation. Having multiple well thought out papracticesnd the reasons you would want to choose one approach over another would be a huge benefit.

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

GilaMonster — Sat, 24 Sep 2011 08:37:56 GMT

I suspect that they all were driven insane by bureaucracy and red tape and retired to desert islands.

RE: Where are all the MVBs?

swjohnson — Sat, 24 Sep 2011 07:33:44 GMT

Tony,It is definitely a community effort. I have been through most of those in the past 7 years as a DBA and it was a community effort just within my organization. Everyone from Hosting Operations, DBA's, Software Developers, Information Security, Individual Business Line Managers to Sr Management was involved. Not easy and not perfect but well worth the effort as things are much easier now and fairly standardized and documented. The best piece of advice I could give is to just start somewhere. Like you said, start with backups (or better yet restore) policy as I would bet no DBA has been fired for having a good backup policy/system. Then branch out based on need and importance. Finally, would be glad to help out the community. ThanksSJ

Where are all the MVBs?

Tony Davis — Sat, 24 Sep 2011 04:50:13 GMT

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