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RE: The Market

Rod at work — Mon, 25 Jul 2011 09:22:09 GMT

[quote][b]GSquared (7/25/2011)[/b][hr]It's also important to keep in mind what the cost-of-living index is in your area.I make the national average for my experience, but I make a third again as much as that when I factor in cost-of-living index for the area I live in. I would need to at least double my pay to have the same lifestyle in any of the California metro areas.So, yes, I do know where I sit with regards to average and median pay for my area, for the country I live in, and compared to the cost of my lifestyle. (There are reasons I'm only about a year away from being completely debt-free. One of the main ones is I pay attention to these factors.)[/quote]That's very cool, GSquared! I've done analysis like that when considering the possibility of a new position, such as cost of living, etc. However, I also think that I've missed out on potentially good situations because I over analyzed the new job/company/city/state.

RE: The Market

GSquared — Mon, 25 Jul 2011 08:26:05 GMT

It's also important to keep in mind what the cost-of-living index is in your area.I make the national average for my experience, but I make a third again as much as that when I factor in cost-of-living index for the area I live in. I would need to at least double my pay to have the same lifestyle in any of the California metro areas.So, yes, I do know where I sit with regards to average and median pay for my area, for the country I live in, and compared to the cost of my lifestyle. (There are reasons I'm only about a year away from being completely debt-free. One of the main ones is I pay attention to these factors.)

RE: The Market

davoscollective — Sun, 24 Jul 2011 21:04:27 GMT

In Australia, HAYS is the largest recruiting firm.They are in a good position to provide an accurate salary survey which breaks down well across the IT sector.http://www.hays.com.au/salary/

RE: The Market

Jeff Moden — Sat, 23 Jul 2011 13:39:40 GMT

Having conducted many interviews over time, I've found that people frequently misclassify themselves. I know many Developers (for example) that think they're Level 5 Client/Server Developers who should be earning six figures... and they're just not.To wit... I've found that it's not so much what the market will bear, but rather how much the interviewer and HR can bear. ;-)

RE: The Market

dma-669038 — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 17:20:48 GMT

I am lucky in that the company I work for pays at least fair salaries. <<Yes, me too. That is hugely important for me. I have been well paid in other companies where others were paid less than fair and it is not a pleasant environment by any stretch of imagination. Especially when they know you make better than they do.

RE: The Market

Revenant — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 16:26:44 GMT

[quote][b]Nevyn (7/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]Revenant (7/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]Nevyn (7/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]Revenant (7/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]SQLRNNR (7/22/2011)[/b][hr]. . . It also doesn't hurt to try to expand the market favorably since many employers try to expand it to the bottom end of that curve.[/quote]... and usually they get what they pay for.[/quote]Usually might be a stretch.I've known many excellent technical people who are very bad at negotiating on their own behalf and don't realize their market value.And I've known some people at the other end of the spectrum who are very good at squeezing every last popular dollar a company is willing to pay.[/quote]I was harping on Jason's "many employers try to expand it," meaning that they are pressing the candidate to accept a lower salary. "Bad at negotiating" is IMO a different kettle of fish.[/quote]"Get what they pay for" seemed to me to imply that they end up hiring an inferior worker because of it.And I was just pointing out that a lot of very good workers will end up accepting those lowball offers.[/quote]This would be probably worth a sociological study. I am lucky in that the company I work for pays at least fair salaries. Come to thinking of that, it is probably one of significant differences between winners and losers.

RE: The Market

Nevyn — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 16:15:17 GMT

[quote][b]Revenant (7/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]Nevyn (7/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]Revenant (7/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]SQLRNNR (7/22/2011)[/b][hr]. . . It also doesn't hurt to try to expand the market favorably since many employers try to expand it to the bottom end of that curve.[/quote]... and usually they get what they pay for.[/quote]Usually might be a stretch.I've known many excellent technical people who are very bad at negotiating on their own behalf and don't realize their market value.And I've known some people at the other end of the spectrum who are very good at squeezing every last popular dollar a company is willing to pay.[/quote]I was harping on Jason's "many employers try to expand it," meaning that they are pressing the candidate to accept a lower salary. "Bad at negotiating" is IMO a different kettle of fish.[/quote]"Get what they pay for" seemed to me to imply that they end up hiring an inferior worker because of it.And I was just pointing out that a lot of very good workers will end up accepting those lowball offers.

RE: The Market

Revenant — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 15:23:05 GMT

[quote][b]Nevyn (7/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]Revenant (7/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]SQLRNNR (7/22/2011)[/b][hr]. . . It also doesn't hurt to try to expand the market favorably since many employers try to expand it to the bottom end of that curve.[/quote]... and usually they get what they pay for.[/quote]Usually might be a stretch.I've known many excellent technical people who are very bad at negotiating on their own behalf and don't realize their market value.And I've known some people at the other end of the spectrum who are very good at squeezing every last popular dollar a company is willing to pay.[/quote]I was harping on Jason's "many employers try to expand it," meaning that they are pressing the candidate to accept a lower salary. "Bad at negotiating" is IMO a different kettle of fish.

RE: The Market

Nevyn — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:52:51 GMT

[quote][b]Revenant (7/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]SQLRNNR (7/22/2011)[/b][hr]. . . It also doesn't hurt to try to expand the market favorably since many employers try to expand it to the bottom end of that curve.[/quote]... and usually they get what they pay for.[/quote]Usually might be a stretch.I've known many excellent technical people who are very bad at negotiating on their own behalf and don't realize their market value.And I've known some people at the other end of the spectrum who are very good at squeezing every last popular dollar a company is willing to pay.

RE: The Market

SQLRNNR — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:42:40 GMT

RE: The Market

Revenant — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:25:39 GMT

[quote][b]SQLRNNR (7/22/2011)[/b][hr]. . . It also doesn't hurt to try to expand the market favorably since many employers try to expand it to the bottom end of that curve.[/quote]... and usually they get what they pay for.

RE: The Market

SQLRNNR — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 13:59:06 GMT

[quote][b]cengland0 (7/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]Ninja's_RGR'us (7/22/2011)[/b][hr]So what are your negotiation tips / tactics?[/quote]I haven't been on the Market for a new job for 10 years. I have no desire to leave my current company regardless of salary.If I was interested in going elsewhere, and I still have my current job, I would demand the salary at the higher end of the range. If they don't accept, I don't take the job.On the other hand, if I was laid-off and was desperate to find a new one, I would probably accept whatever they offered the first time.[/quote]I'm kinda in the same boat. I know the market range and keep that in mind in negotiations. It also doesn't hurt to try to expand the market favorably since many employers try to expand it to the bottom end of that curve.

RE: The Market

Revenant — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 13:11:10 GMT

I have 41 years of experience, first database work on Cullinet in 1979, then IDMS, IMS, DB2, Informix, Oracle, and since 1997, SQL Server.I am in Redmond, WA, and on the top of the scale.

RE: The Market

bopeavy — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 13:07:57 GMT

I would have to say that the range is somewhere between X and Y depending on the WDYL factor. Also i would say it depends on the company.:w00t:

RE: The Market

dma-669038 — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 12:32:02 GMT

I am on the upper end of the scale - not maximum but upper end for where i live. I am also mid aged immigrant. The problem with all this is finding not just a place that pays more but offers creative work, and respect for diversity and all of that. After a certain age it gets way way complicated. To me i dont' intend going anywhere unless i make a break somehow - in cloud/BI/virtualisation or somethign else that is really hot so that i can find what i need without humungous effort.Otherwise one DBA job is not that different than another, for a few extra $ might end up losing a comfortable niche. As techologists many time i have noticed also that the tide carries you whether you want to move or not, the workplace changes, technologies change, needs change..so if you are in a reasonably good position just keep sharp and learning and keep your eyes open, sometimes things can and will happen automatically.

RE: The Market

kgbkto — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 10:11:55 GMT

Don't forget to factor in the salary multipliers in the footnotes for MS SQL, Oracle, etc. skills. I also like the job descriptions on the Robert Half site.

RE: The Market

@DBA_ANDY — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 09:59:14 GMT

We have had some discussion on the Salary survey sites here in my office regarding how they don't take platform into account either - at least in our market Oracle DBA's and DB2 DBA's make more than SQL DBA's - so when you say DBA's make 70-100K it can be misleading.

RE: The Market

Ben Wilson-179630 — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 09:51:54 GMT

Interesting (and timely) topic for me! I relocated recently from Australia to Vancouver, Canada. I knew my market value in Australia, but when i started discussing salary with recruiters and employers in Vancouver, I had no idea of my market value. Wages in Australia seem to be around 20% higher than an equivalent job in Vancouver (plus you get 4 weeks holiday). Contracting in Australia pays even more again. I found it really difficult to accept a job that paid less than what I was on in Australia, especially given the cost of living in Vancouver and the fact that the Aussie dollar is worth more than both the Canadian and US at the moment!

RE: The Market

cengland0 — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 09:51:46 GMT

[quote][b]Nevyn (7/22/2011)[/b][hr]If you're in a fairly big technology center, and have a very standardized job description (SQL server DBA), [/quote]I used to have job title of DBA/Consultant but since I work for HR, they standardized all our job codes into HR job codes. I'm now considered a Process Design Consultant (whatever that means). I still do the exact same job but with a weird job code.

RE: The Market

Nevyn — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 09:44:37 GMT

I wish I found salary surveys more reliable, but for an awful lot of people, they are still just a bit too generic.If you're in a fairly big technology center, and have a very standardized job description (SQL server DBA), you might be able to get a good snapshot of what people are being paid. But as you get into areas where fewer people have the job, and jobs that are a bit more flexible (programming jobs on small team especially fall into this category), finding comparables is very difficult.Then there is the problem about how salaries are arrived at in the first place. The initial salary is negotiated and then raises often happen through varying HR policy.So you'll get some people who stay at the same job, doing essentially junior job duties, but creeping into the senior salary band. But if they had to find a new job, that's not what they could command. Likewise you can have someone developing great skills, but who negotiated badly for their first salary and stuck in a lagging review process, and making far beneath what others would pay.Beyond that, salary surveys are backward looking. How much a company would truly pay to get you comes down to a supply/demand question. So even if a typical Orange County DBA makes 90k, the amount you can expect changes a lot if there is one DBA job in the area and 20 unemployed DBAs vs if there are 20 companies looking, and all needing to recruit currently employed people to attract talent.

RE: The Market

daxz — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 09:21:32 GMT

PayScale.com has many inputs (including experience and employer type for determining salary ranges).

RE: The Market

KWymore — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 09:07:24 GMT

[quote][b]cengland0 (7/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]@DBA_ANDY (7/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]Rod at work (7/22/2011)[/b][hr]I used to work for a university (University of Nebraska-Lincoln) and we were always considered "public" because a fair portion of our funding *did* come from state taxes, etc.[/quote]That's wonderful. I'll have to move to Nebraska and get a free education without having to pay anything out of pocket.[/quote]Ha! Let me know how that works out for you! :-)

RE: The Market

cengland0 — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:53:04 GMT

[quote][b]@DBA_ANDY (7/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]Rod at work (7/22/2011)[/b][hr]I used to work for a university (University of Nebraska-Lincoln) and we were always considered "public" because a fair portion of our funding *did* come from state taxes, etc.[/quote]That's wonderful. I'll have to move to Nebraska and get a free education without having to pay anything out of pocket.

RE: The Market

Rod at work — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:40:37 GMT

[quote][b]cengland0 (7/22/2011)[/b][hr][quote][b]Rod at work (7/22/2011)[/b][hr]A large part of that is because I work for a university; have for the last 15 years. Universities always pay less than the private sector. I'm sure that I could probably make more in the private sector.[/quote]Universities are in the private sector. Elementary, Junior High, and High Schools are in the Public sector. My taxes pay for your children to get an education even though I don't have any children of my own. However, my taxes do not pay for your college education. Yes, you can get some government grants but the state still recognizes the institutions as private. They make a profit, right? Do they give all their profits back to our government? Nope![/quote]I work for a state university. Our budget is [b]very largely[/b] set by the state legislature. Yes, there are funds from other areas, but that is the significant minority of our budget.

RE: The Market

@DBA_ANDY — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:30:47 GMT

[quote][b]Rod at work (7/22/2011)[/b][hr]Good question for a Friday, Steve. My short answer to your question is, no. I don't really know my market value is in my local area. A large part of that is because I work for a university; have for the last 15 years. Universities always pay less than the private sector. I'm sure that I could probably make more in the private sector.[/quote]I used to work for a university (University of Nebraska-Lincoln) and we were always considered "public" because a fair portion of our funding *did* come from state taxes, etc.

RE: The Market

Tony++ — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:29:50 GMT

I'm in Minneapolis MN. My (former) manager gave me the delightful task of naming my raise, as long as I could justify it within market range.I keep a good ongoing relationship with multiple recruiters, so I simply forwarded them an updated resume and asked them, for the job I'm doing, with the skills I have, for local market, what's my range? Easy and someone else does the work.3 recruiters agreed that the (typical) Minneapolis range for senior level swings from 90 to 115. (BTW I didn't get the raise anywhere near the top end of the range, but the questions to recruiters did get me a a job offer at that point!)Definately, know your worth. If you're not there by salary then it's the other intangibles that have to make up the difference. I actually didn't take the highest offer, I took a lower offer where the intangibles are worth the salary difference to me.

RE: The Market

cengland0 — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:27:23 GMT

[quote][b]Rod at work (7/22/2011)[/b][hr]A large part of that is because I work for a university; have for the last 15 years. Universities always pay less than the private sector. I'm sure that I could probably make more in the private sector.[/quote]Universities are in the private sector. Elementary, Junior High, and High Schools are in the Public sector. My taxes pay for your children to get an education even though I don't have any children of my own. However, my taxes do not pay for your college education. Yes, you can get some government grants but the state still recognizes the institutions as private. They make a profit, right? Do they give all their profits back to our government? Nope!

RE: The Market

Rod at work — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:11:05 GMT

Good question for a Friday, Steve. My short answer to your question is, no. I don't really know my market value is in my local area. A large part of that is because I work for a university; have for the last 15 years. Universities always pay less than the private sector. I'm sure that I could probably make more in the private sector.

RE: The Market

Dalton Moore — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 07:55:27 GMT

Interns are the outliers on the low end :-D

RE: The Market

@DBA_ANDY — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 07:42:03 GMT

Thanks for a thoroughly depressing topic :-P - nothing like having 9 years experience and being in the bottom quadrant of your alleged salary range:

RE: The Market

cfradenburg — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 07:36:21 GMT

I have a good feel for how much I'm worth. I did some research before leaving my last job. Straight salary I'm probably a little low where I am now but health insurance is half what it was at my last place (one of the benefits of working for a hospital system) so that's a good thing. And I'm working someplace that has a direct benefit to society which means a lot to me.I find it interesting that the Robert Half graph doesn't take work experience into account. Nor does Salary.com. Both those are close for Burlington, VT at 87 and 88 grand. Payscale, which does ask questions about experience and industry says 66 grand which seems low to me and not what I saw last I looked into it.

RE: The Market

WolforthJ — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 06:19:03 GMT

I am in Duluth, MN and the numbers are about 25% lower, however I don't think there are many DBA's here that have job descriptions that match to larger markets. Also I am in government, so it is difficult to put value on all the benefits plus the stability of the job. We just changed some job descriptions so HR did it's own research, comparing our new descriptions to other similar sized government entities. With the wide variety of how people arrange IT work, they were only able to match 70% of the skills. Our pay came within a +/-10% range so there will be no changes.Someone in the department had numbers for a Fox/Lawson survey that put us further below the average, but it was argued that we don't compare to private industry, and the survey was out of date. My personal perspective is that I could find a little more pay but I'd have to work a lot more for it and I wouldn't get all those government holidays. I'll let the younger folks have those jobs.

RE: The Market

Ian Massi — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 06:14:27 GMT

I tend to go by whatever salaries random and non-random recruiters tell me about jobs they want to put me in. They usually don't say it right up front but if you seem even remotely interested they'll at least give you a range if you tell them you won't talk further unless you know it. I don't tend to do that since I'm quite happy where I am though. I work near Toronto and that Robert Half tool seems about right. Then again, the recruiter I keep in touch with (he got me into the job I have today and I helped him fill another DBA job) is with Robert Half so it stands to reason. Based on all that information I'd say I'm fairly compensated.As for negotiation techniques, I'd say the best one is to have them say a salary number first. Then you can go up from there. I don't get too aggressive, just treat it the same way as negotiating a price on a car or house. They don't intend to get the asking price so just offer something a little more advantageous to you and they probably won't even bat an eye. Worst case they say no or counter, unlikely they won't want to go forward with the job offer. In the past I've bumped up a starting salary from their initial offer by 10% and 7.5%. One I was perfectly happy with the starting salary but asked for 3 weeks of vacation instead of 2 to start. The first person who says a salary number is at a disadvantage, so just try to make sure it isn't you. Also, it's much easier on the nerves to negotiate when you still have a job and you're looking at a new one. But negotiating even a small salary increase right at the start will pay huge dividends later, especially if it's a place that has salary based bonuses and benefits.

RE: The Market

cengland0 — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 05:54:48 GMT

[quote][b]Ninja's_RGR'us (7/22/2011)[/b][hr]So what are your negotiation tips / tactics?[/quote]I haven't been on the Market for a new job for 10 years. I have no desire to leave my current company regardless of salary.If I was interested in going elsewhere, and I still have my current job, I would demand the salary at the higher end of the range. If they don't accept, I don't take the job.On the other hand, if I was laid-off and was desperate to find a new one, I would probably accept whatever they offered the first time.

RE: The Market

Ninja's_RGR'us — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 05:43:13 GMT

That's why I like mine better :-D.No seriously I think we should come up with the top 3-5 sites and then average those reports (expected salary), then go in the negotiation room with the top 1-2 as a starting point.So what are your negotiation tips / tactics?

RE: The Market

cengland0 — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 05:39:40 GMT

[quote][b]Ninja's_RGR'us (7/22/2011)[/b][hr][url]http://www.roberthalftechnology.com/SalaryCenter[/url][/quote]Using your link, this is what I get:[img]http://wbttools.com/unusedimages/salary2.png[/img]

RE: The Market

cengland0 — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 05:37:22 GMT

Here's the salary information for my location:[img]http://wbttools.com/unusedimages/salary.png[/img]

RE: The Market

Ninja's_RGR'us — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 05:35:38 GMT

[url]http://www.roberthalftechnology.com/SalaryCenter[/url]

RE: The Market

cengland0 — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 05:32:57 GMT

Salary depends on location and job responsibilities. Go to a site like salary.com and look up "Database Administrator" for your zip code.

The Market

Steve Jones - SSC Editor — Thu, 21 Jul 2011 21:09:02 GMT

Comments posted to this topic are about the item [B]The Market[/B]