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RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

TravisDBA — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 05:16:22 GMT

[quote][b]Jonathan Kehayias (12/27/2010)[/b][hr]Nope not really, you seem to have an excuse for everything so its pretty much pointless trying to help you fix all incorrect information that exists in your blog that is a real disservice to the community.[/quote]I don't think most people have a problem with people pointing out issues or inaccuracies with a person's blog or forum post. We have ALL been wrong in the past. No one is immune from it. It's the tone in which they do it that some people have a problem with. A mentor of mine used to say "It's not what someone says to me that matters as much as how they say it and who they say it in front of. It can make ALL the difference in the world as to whether I listen to them or not." Words to live by, and ALL of us can learn from this. Presentation often trumps facts when it comes to dealing with people. :-D

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

Jonathan Kehayias — Mon, 27 Dec 2010 19:19:14 GMT

Nope not really, you seem to have an excuse for everything so its pretty much pointless trying to help you fix all incorrect information that exists in your blog that is a real disservice to the community.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

ab5sr — Mon, 27 Dec 2010 17:02:06 GMT

[quote][b]Jonathan Kehayias (12/24/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]ab5sr (12/23/2010)[/b][hr]Interesting post, Tim, and timely, just about the time that I was "debunked" and "called out" in a "game-on" fashion just today. I appreciate the reply, Jonathan, but 1) you still misunderstood what I was investigating, and 2) while you did a splendid job on your post about how the transaction log works - admittedly yourself no new information in your posting and readily accessible in BOL - you seemed to spend more effort to reinforce something that I did not write clearly about, even in my updated conclusion. Moreover, your tone and verbiage seemed to want to call out something to elevate yourself or belittle my intentions maybe more so than actually help others, or at least that is the perception that you leave. [/quote]I understand fully what you were investigating, I even stated that in my blog post:[b]No, that's the problem. You didnt understand. I was investigating whether or not IO was present in additional files WHEN THE FILE WAS NOT WRITTEN TO, and I showed that in Perfmon. Did you even read the blog, Jonathan? If I wanted to post about how the transaction log works, the blog would have been entitled "How the transaction log works in SQL Server". But that's not what I was writing about.[i][/i][/b][quote][i](half the purpose behind this post is to show that there is benefit to having multiple log files like this, which is also the intended purpose behind the original blog post as well),[/i][/quote]You don't understand the impact that posting incorrect information like you had, and left after I replied to your emails after I left a comment on the post explaining things to you. The point of my comment, which you moderated and didn't post on the blog post, the emails I sent in response to you, and the blog post I wrote is that the conclusions you reached are wrong, and it is easy to prove it with an appropriate test using the tools available in SQL Server. You don't have to know the source code for the database engine to see how things work, that's the point of my blog posts this entire month. If you choose to see that as me trying to elevate myself instead of correcting your bad information, so be it.[b]I understand fully the impact of what I write. You should spend a few reading some of my posts. I get an idea and then write about it. Whether or not it goes down a dead-end path or not makes no difference if I blog about it. Take for instance the series that I've started on tempdb performance - have no idea where it's going, bra. May be a dead end, or could be something that's completely incorrect. Again, what I"m writing about is what I saw. If you see something else in your test, my hat's off to you...doesn't change in the least what I recorded given my parameters and constraints.[i][/i][/b][quote]Back to my blog - I write for myself and no one else. If a reader chooses to read or not read my blog, that's great, and if not I can live with that. [/quote]You say you blog for yourself, but your blog post was syndicated to SQLServerPedia, which has a broad readership and is a well known site, so its very obvious that you aren't blogging just for yourself and that you wanted to expand readership by syndicating with SQLServerPedia. Like I said on my blog post, if your post hadn't been on SSP I wouldn't have paid it any attention. You no doubt chose to syndicate for a broader readership, that carries with it a certain responsibility to ensure the information you post is accurate. Want to know how incorrect information affects people that read syndications from larger sites? Read the comment by Rich on this [url=http://sqlblog.com/blogs/jonathan_kehayias/archive/2010/04/01/some-thoughts-on-the-virtualization-feedback-in-the-sswug-newsletters.aspx]other corrective blog post I wrote[/url] after wrong information was repeated sent out by SSWUG in their newsletter.[b]Probably should not do experiments posted on SQLServerPedia, you are correct. I'll give you that - was probably not a good idea. Seeing that SQLServerPedia is also unedited, though, I'd probably say "Caveat Emptor" on that site also to anyone reading it, as well as any other site.[i][/i][/b]If you had a problem with that blog post, you should have posted them to its comment section rather than to here, but I can respond to them here just as easily. I guess you didn't want to risk me moderating your comments like you did mine.[/quote][b]The only reason that I didn't put your long comment is that on my blog (blogengine.net) it runs over outside of the textbox and becomes a jumbled and garbled mess and no one could read it anyway. Additionally, considering it was nasty and had a sh*tty tone to it, I decided to leave it out. [i][/i][/b]Any other questions I can help you with, Jonathan?

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

GSquared — Mon, 27 Dec 2010 13:50:31 GMT

[quote][b]GilaMonster (12/27/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]Michael Valentine Jones (12/27/2010)[/b][hr]Does he post on SSC or some other web sites?[/quote]Haven't seen him here, not in name or attitude.[/quote]He used to post on ExpertSexchange (sorry, I still can't type/say that site's name without that piece of lame humor). [url]www.ExpertsExchange.com[/url]His first post, in his profile, really says it all. To summarize, "Wow! A site that's just for self-proclaimed experts who are dumb enough to pay for what others can get for free! And the hoi-poloi can't post here! Life suddenly has meaning!" (I'm sorry if my own arrogance is showing on that.... no, actually I'm not sorry about that at all.)

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

GilaMonster — Mon, 27 Dec 2010 10:33:54 GMT

[quote][b]Michael Valentine Jones (12/27/2010)[/b][hr]Does he post on SSC or some other web sites?[/quote]Haven't seen him here, not in name or attitude.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

Michael Valentine Jones — Mon, 27 Dec 2010 10:01:44 GMT

[quote][b]GSquared (12/27/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]Michael Valentine Jones (12/24/2010)[/b][hr]Some people just don't take criticism well, no matter how nice you try to be about it, and things can quickly get nasty.I tried to just stick to the facts, but the guy on the link below ("IncisiveOne" ) really went off on me. Since he was giving bad advice, I didn't feel like I could just let it go unchallenged.[font="Courier New"]Moving away from a cursor to while loop[/font][url]http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=131674[/url]He really went crazy when people challenged him on this thread: [font="Courier New"]Struggling with 4-5 table join syntax[/font][url]http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=131595[/url][/quote]"IncisiveOne" has a problem with his ego blocking his view. Always has. He gives bad advice based on misunderstood theories and lack of actual experience, and then resorts to ad hominem attacks whenever someone proves he's wrong (which has happened in every post I've ever seen of his). So, my advice is, just treat him like you would any other troll. Ignore, and make sure others know to do the same.[/quote]Does he post on SSC or some other web sites?He hasn't posted on SQLTeam for over a year; guess he was upset about the lack of respect he was getting.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

GSquared — Mon, 27 Dec 2010 08:08:13 GMT

[quote][b]Michael Valentine Jones (12/24/2010)[/b][hr]Some people just don't take criticism well, no matter how nice you try to be about it, and things can quickly get nasty.I tried to just stick to the facts, but the guy on the link below ("IncisiveOne" ) really went off on me. Since he was giving bad advice, I didn't feel like I could just let it go unchallenged.[font="Courier New"]Moving away from a cursor to while loop[/font][url]http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=131674[/url]He really went crazy when people challenged him on this thread: [font="Courier New"]Struggling with 4-5 table join syntax[/font][url]http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=131595[/url][/quote]"IncisiveOne" has a problem with his ego blocking his view. Always has. He gives bad advice based on misunderstood theories and lack of actual experience, and then resorts to ad hominem attacks whenever someone proves he's wrong (which has happened in every post I've ever seen of his). So, my advice is, just treat him like you would any other troll. Ignore, and make sure others know to do the same.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

GilaMonster — Sat, 25 Dec 2010 13:28:25 GMT

[quote][b]Jonathan Kehayias (12/24/2010)[/b][hr] Read the comment by Rich on this [url="http://sqlblog.com/blogs/jonathan_kehayias/archive/2010/04/01/some-thoughts-on-the-virtualization-feedback-in-the-sswug-newsletters.aspx"]other corrective blog post I wrote[/url] after wrong information was repeated sent out by SSWUG in their newsletter.[/quote]For some reason (maybe the "") link not working. This one should:[url]http://sqlblog.com/blogs/jonathan_kehayias/archive/2010/04/01/some-thoughts-on-the-virtualization-feedback-in-the-sswug-newsletters.aspx[/url]

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

Michael Valentine Jones — Fri, 24 Dec 2010 23:12:43 GMT

Some people just don't take criticism well, no matter how nice you try to be about it, and things can quickly get nasty.I tried to just stick to the facts, but the guy on the link below ("IncisiveOne" ) really went off on me. Since he was giving bad advice, I didn't feel like I could just let it go unchallenged.[font="Courier New"]Moving away from a cursor to while loop[/font][url]http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=131674[/url]He really went crazy when people challenged him on this thread: [font="Courier New"]Struggling with 4-5 table join syntax[/font][url]http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=131595[/url]

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

SQLRNNR — Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:19:01 GMT

If the advice is really bad, and I know the person - I will first try to contact them personally.Other times, I will ask the opinion of other people who may be more knowledgeable on a subject. Who knows, I may be wrong in my understanding. Thus by asking a second or third person for their opinion, I will either validate what I thought or validate that the other person is correct (and possibly even enlighten both us because we could both be wrong still).And then lastly, provide a polite reference to accurate information.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

Jonathan Kehayias — Fri, 24 Dec 2010 14:11:20 GMT

[quote][b]Core6430 (12/24/2010)[/b][hr]I would rather see the comments on posts or blogs that point out when something is wrong and why it's wrong. I'm not a dba, and sometimes that "bad advice" someone gave is something my company is practicing. Reading the Why of not doing it that way helps me to change bad practices, plus I can learn from others mistakes, and can (hopefully) avoid making a mistake in the future. In my opinion, many of the 'mistakes' I see written are common misconceptions that haven't been challenged. I seem to see the same mistakes repeatedly blogged about, or done in the workplace. Seeing some one else challenged for a practice you're currently doing can be a huge eye opener for some. [/quote]The unfortunate truth of blogs is that the blog owner controls what comments actually show up on their site. Case in point Lee's blog post still doesn't show the comments I made to him almost 48 hours ago, and the information is still wrong. Be careful of anything you find online, to include my own blog posts that you can't independently verify or find substantiating sources for. Do people get it wrong sometimes? You bet, and I've made mistakes in the past that I've had to correct. You can still see them on my blog posts because I leave a bold font update in where I fixed it, providing credit to the person that told me it was wrong.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

Jonathan Kehayias — Fri, 24 Dec 2010 14:04:15 GMT

[quote][b]ab5sr (12/23/2010)[/b][hr]Interesting post, Tim, and timely, just about the time that I was "debunked" and "called out" in a "game-on" fashion just today. I appreciate the reply, Jonathan, but 1) you still misunderstood what I was investigating, and 2) while you did a splendid job on your post about how the transaction log works - admittedly yourself no new information in your posting and readily accessible in BOL - you seemed to spend more effort to reinforce something that I did not write clearly about, even in my updated conclusion. Moreover, your tone and verbiage seemed to want to call out something to elevate yourself or belittle my intentions maybe more so than actually help others, or at least that is the perception that you leave. [/quote]I understand fully what you were investigating, I even stated that in my blog post:[quote][i](half the purpose behind this post is to show that there is benefit to having multiple log files like this, which is also the intended purpose behind the original blog post as well),[/i][/quote]You don't understand the impact that posting incorrect information like you had, and left after I replied to your emails after I left a comment on the post explaining things to you. The point of my comment, which you moderated and didn't post on the blog post, the emails I sent in response to you, and the blog post I wrote is that the conclusions you reached are wrong, and it is easy to prove it with an appropriate test using the tools available in SQL Server. You don't have to know the source code for the database engine to see how things work, that's the point of my blog posts this entire month. If you choose to see that as me trying to elevate myself instead of correcting your bad information, so be it.[quote]Back to my blog - I write for myself and no one else. If a reader chooses to read or not read my blog, that's great, and if not I can live with that. [/quote]You say you blog for yourself, but your blog post was syndicated to SQLServerPedia, which has a broad readership and is a well known site, so its very obvious that you aren't blogging just for yourself and that you wanted to expand readership by syndicating with SQLServerPedia. Like I said on my blog post, if your post hadn't been on SSP I wouldn't have paid it any attention. You no doubt chose to syndicate for a broader readership, that carries with it a certain responsibility to ensure the information you post is accurate. Want to know how incorrect information affects people that read syndications from larger sites? Read the comment by Rich on this [url=http://sqlblog.com/blogs/jonathan_kehayias/archive/2010/04/01/some-thoughts-on-the-virtualization-feedback-in-the-sswug-newsletters.aspx]other corrective blog post I wrote[/url] after wrong information was repeated sent out by SSWUG in their newsletter.If you had a problem with that blog post, you should have posted them to its comment section rather than to here, but I can respond to them here just as easily. I guess you didn't want to risk me moderating your comments like you did mine.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

TravisDBA — Fri, 24 Dec 2010 12:17:43 GMT

[quote] I write for myself and no one else. If a reader chooses to read or not read my blog, that's great, and if not I can live with that. If I have misleading information, then it's certainly not done with malice. Most of us, save a Paul Randal type, haven't worked with the SQL engine directly up in Redmond, so we really don't know all that there is to know and cannot speak in terms of absolutes with regards to SQL Server in my opinion......I may or may not get everything always correct, and that is OK. Information therein is unedited as it resides itself in the unedited world of the internet. [/quote]Lee, I could not have said it better myself and I applaud you for saying this and this goes back to my point earlier in this post that this happens on blogs and forums. No one is immune from it, so people need to just relax and take things in context. No one knows everything in SQL Server, except maybe Paul Randal. But I would be willing to bet that even the great Paul has on occasion been wrong himself. But like you say, that's ok because we ALL should understand that this can and does happen, It's just not that big of a deal. :-D

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

Core6430 — Fri, 24 Dec 2010 07:47:20 GMT

I would rather see the comments on posts or blogs that point out when something is wrong and why it's wrong. I'm not a dba, and sometimes that "bad advice" someone gave is something my company is practicing. Reading the Why of not doing it that way helps me to change bad practices, plus I can learn from others mistakes, and can (hopefully) avoid making a mistake in the future. In my opinion, many of the 'mistakes' I see written are common misconceptions that haven't been challenged. I seem to see the same mistakes repeatedly blogged about, or done in the workplace. Seeing some one else challenged for a practice you're currently doing can be a huge eye opener for some. From a different point of view, this article has good concepts that can be applied to work place problems too. When coworkers are practicing methods that you know are harmful, it contains good suggestions on how to confront them.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

ab5sr — Thu, 23 Dec 2010 22:11:53 GMT

Interesting post, Tim, and timely, just about the time that I was "debunked" and "called out" in a "game-on" fashion just today. I appreciate the reply, Jonathan, but 1) you still misunderstood what I was investigating, and 2) while you did a splendid job on your post about how the transaction log works - admittedly yourself no new information in your posting and readily accessible in BOL - you seemed to spend more effort to reinforce something that I did not write clearly about, even in my updated conclusion. Moreover, your tone and verbiage seemed to want to call out something to elevate yourself or belittle my intentions maybe more so than actually help others, or at least that is the perception that you leave. Let me provide an example of how I might add to a discussion in a positive and constructive way; if you peruse my blog on Forward Records located at: [url=http://www.texastoo.com/post/2010/11/16/Another-way-to-get-Forward-Records-in-SQL-Server.aspx][/url] you will note that I choose to indicate additions to the writer’s post rather than demean or otherwise discredit. The likelihood of obtaining forwarded records from an ALTER statement would probably occur less frequently than my offering, however I do not choose to diminish his suggestion, but rather add to the discussion in a creative, positive, and beneficial manner to the reader.Back to my blog - I write for myself and no one else. If a reader chooses to read or not read my blog, that's great, and if not I can live with that. If I have misleading information, then it's certainly not done with malice. Most of us, save a Paul Randal type, haven't worked with the SQL engine directly up in Redmond, so we really don't know all that there is to know and cannot speak in terms of absolutes with regards to SQL Server in my opinion. I'm a consultant and I happen to jot down things that I observe based on the given constraints and variables at-hand; should these change, then a hypothesis or assumption may or may not change. And these notes just happen to end up on my blog. Again, no information ever put there is designated as a be-all, end-all conclusion. After all, I didn't write the SQL engine. No SQL Police here.That being said, I enjoy blogging and will continue such; I may or may not get everything always correct, and that is OK. Information therein is unedited as it resides itself in the unedited world of the internet. I always tend to write things down as if I am in a laboratory setting with a "results may vary" caveat to everyone who visits my blog. After all, I'm doing research, experimentation, and fun as I note on my "sigline". And, if I am able to help someone out along the way, then I'm grateful for this and appreciate the opportunity. Finally, most of what we all blog or write about is not new. Sure, there are new features that come out no doubt, but whether or not there is information (such as what I was posting about) “well known”, my inquisitive nature will always drive me to "find out for myself" as opposed to taking whatever I read as written word, regardless of whether it is widely-known, or even if there may be a de-facto expert among us.Thank you for correcting me where I was incorrect and unclear, and I look forward to reading great things from you on your blog the future. Best Regards,Lee Everest MS

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

GilaMonster — Wed, 22 Dec 2010 12:13:56 GMT

[quote][b]GSquared (12/22/2010)[/b][hr]I have to say that my response to bad advice depends on where it is, what it is, what it's about, the tone it's delivered in, and the history of the person writing it.If, for example, I see a minor error in a piece of complex code, in reply to a poorly written request for help, I'll just suggest a correction and nothing more.On the other hand, if I see something posted that could result in serious data loss, posted in an authoritative manner, without clarification that it will result in data loss (I see this pretty regularly), I'll jump on it a little more harshly. Since that's the kind of thing that can result in losses for companies and job-loss for the DBA affected, I treat it a little more seriously.[/quote]Pretty much how I handle it too. Just if I see someone who's repeatedly dispensing bad advice (especially the same bad advice) I'll be a lot harsher than if it's a first time.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

webrunner — Wed, 22 Dec 2010 11:19:00 GMT

[quote][b]tpepin (12/22/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]lenne_dk (12/22/2010)[/b][hr][quote]Most true professionals due a good job of self-screening,[/quote]Not here, it seems :-)A correction is due, if you do not mind...[/quote]I got a good chuckle out of it myself. I found it especially ironic on that particular sentence.[/quote]I noticed the typo, too, but silently corrected it and thought to myself that it didn't fall into the category of bad advice. Rather, it was a case of the classic foible of writing a little too phonetically (there/their, your/you're, etc.). Although worthy of correction, I think that is less of an issue than the one mentioned in the editorial -- advice that may be correctly spelled, nicely formatted, and confidently stated -- but wrong. I have seen many examples of corrections that were too harsh (especially when those corrections themselves turned out to be wrong), but on the whole, the initial advice in this thread -- a simple "I believe that's not correct" and a URL reference or link, seems to be the norm. And it seems to me a good way to offer the correction.Just my two cents,webrunner

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

GSquared — Wed, 22 Dec 2010 10:03:29 GMT

I have to say that my response to bad advice depends on where it is, what it is, what it's about, the tone it's delivered in, and the history of the person writing it.If, for example, I see a minor error in a piece of complex code, in reply to a poorly written request for help, I'll just suggest a correction and nothing more.On the other hand, if I see something posted that could result in serious data loss, posted in an authoritative manner, without clarification that it will result in data loss (I see this pretty regularly), I'll jump on it a little more harshly. Since that's the kind of thing that can result in losses for companies and job-loss for the DBA affected, I treat it a little more seriously.When corrected myself (happens more often than I like), I take my error personally, but not the correction. If I posted something that will cause a problem for someone else, that's serious to me, even if it isn't to anyone else. That's certainly not a flaw in the person correcting me.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

Alan Vogan — Wed, 22 Dec 2010 09:23:01 GMT

I'm a reader of all this wonderful advice this community puts out. I always make sure that I've read several articles on whatever topic I'm researching, just to double/triple check that there is general consensus. When I see ego's clash or fighting over a topic, I tend to move on to the next website where more rational discourse is taking place.Just remember what Tom said above. And what your Mama taught you. Be nice. Play nice. If you don't have anything good to say, then keep your mouth shut.And for those of you who remember, it's now time to sing the Grandmother Song by Steve Martin. 1,2,3... Be courteous kind and forgiving... :hehe:

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

john.arnott — Wed, 22 Dec 2010 08:58:31 GMT

[quote][b]OCTom (12/22/2010)[/b][hr]My 2 cents worth:When correcting/criticising someone:1. Don't make it personal.2. Make it about the code and/or advice.3. Use positive instead of negative terms.4. Give an alternative and explain why it's better.When being corrected/criticised:1. Don't take it personally.2. Remember it's about the code and/or advice.3. If you are wrong, accept the criticism/correction gracefully.4. If you are not wrong, use the first four steps above to correct the corrector.And, for both, remember there are many ways to accomplish a task or solve a problem. Your way may be just one of many and it may not work in all installations.[/quote]Excellent advice ( :-) ). One way to keep the conversation about what was written is to [b]request clarification[/b]. It's usually much better received to say something like "I don't quite understand how this works....", rather than "This doesn't work."

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

tpepin — Wed, 22 Dec 2010 07:21:43 GMT

[quote][b]lenne_dk (12/22/2010)[/b][hr][quote]Most true professionals due a good job of self-screening,[/quote]Not here, it seems :-)A correction is due, if you do not mind...[/quote]I got a good chuckle out of it myself. I found it especially ironic on that particular sentence.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

Tim Mitchell — Wed, 22 Dec 2010 07:17:37 GMT

[quote]I did just that a week or so ago on Twitter (maybe the incident to which you're referring Tim?) because the advice was so blatantly misleading from such a widely read blog - it would have had many DBAs struggling to figure out why their system wasn't exhibiting the behavior specified.[/quote]Paul, this editorial was written a few months ago, so any similarities to recent events is purely coincidental :)But you're right - the same method doesn't work for everybody. Nobody wants to hear that their baby is ugly, but some people respond to it better than others. It's a fine line to walk, knowing how to gently correct without alienating a well-intentioned writer.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

Tim Mitchell — Wed, 22 Dec 2010 07:11:45 GMT

[quote][b]lenne_dk (12/22/2010)[/b][hr][quote]Most true professionals due a good job of self-screening,[/quote]Not here, it seems :-)A correction is due, if you do not mind...[/quote]Indeed, sir! Thanks for pointing this out, I missed it during the edit.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

OCTom — Wed, 22 Dec 2010 06:44:33 GMT

My 2 cents worth:When correcting/criticising someone:1. Don't make it personal.2. Make it about the code and/or advice.3. Use positive instead of negative terms.4. Give an alternative and explain why it's better.When being corrected/criticised:1. Don't take it personally.2. Remember it's about the code and/or advice.3. If you are wrong, accept the criticism/correction gracefully.4. If you are not wrong, use the first four steps above to correct the corrector.And, for both, remember there are many ways to accomplish a task or solve a problem. Your way may be just one of many and it may not work in all installations.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

Jonathan Kehayias — Wed, 22 Dec 2010 06:39:14 GMT

One of my favorite topics, and a very difficult one at that. I personally handle things differently depending on the who/what/where of the content. Inaccuracies on the forums is one thing, and people are a bit more likely to read through the majority of comments on a forums post before deciding to follow advice. An article or newsletter from a major publishing site like SQL Server Central, or the competetors that is blatently wrong; Game On, because the editors should have done a better job before publishing incorrect content. Experience shows that fewer people read the comments on Articles than forums, especially when they have to click a Join the Discussion button to find the comments. Some really bad articles have pages of comments correcting wrong information, and the authors never fixed the article, which is possible to do, I've made changes to my own Articles on here when information changed with Service Packs, or through further understanding. Expecting that the Discussion forums for an Article will police your bad content is wrong thinking, and that's not targeted at SSC, but the community at large because it happens all over.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

dma-669038 — Wed, 22 Dec 2010 06:34:45 GMT

In many cases I have seen misleading blog posts or replies have their origins in some paper or information published by MS itself and not cleared up later. I have myself had two issues with MS on widely accepted problem issues - the problem with GUIDs and fragmentation, and the problem with # of tempdb files being equal to the # of cores. Granted i didnt speak to someone at the top at MS, mostly the CSS engineers and our TAM, but they were not able to give me a MS link that agreed to these two issues as often explained by well known authorities such as Kim and Paul. (Perhaps there is one now, this was a year or so ago).Where i work for example the management is not very well educated on who is an authority on SQL and who is not outside of MS, they go largely by the book. MS needs to update and correct documentation on a much more frequent basis, and perhaps remove what has been proven outdated. On how the correction should be made, yes I think Paul is right, people can and should be called out when they have a wide audience and post misleading info. But perhaps writing to them personally would be better than doing so in public. Just my 2 cents.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

Paul Randal — Wed, 22 Dec 2010 06:14:55 GMT

The vast majority of the time I try to be very supportive when giving constructive criticism, but sometimes if the person *repeatedly* posts incorrect things, a harsh wake-up call is warranted IMHO. I did just that a week or so ago on Twitter (maybe the incident to which you're referring Tim?) because the advice was so blatantly misleading from such a widely read blog - it would have had many DBAs struggling to figure out why their system wasn't exhibiting the behavior specified. That's incredibly unhelpful and damaging and needed to be put right immediately, especially as the blog post in question had just been widely RT'd around the community.I've seen the same thing happen on the MSDN forums with people that constantly reply with dubious or downright misleading information, and I've seen SQL Server Magazine publish un-reviewed articles that speak of regularly shrinking databases - which provoked a wide backlash and a retraction.Sometimes it can be difficult to figure out what method to take when correcting bad advice, as you especially have to be 100% certain that what you're correcting is, in fact, bad advice.But good editorial!

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

Nakul Vachhrajani — Wed, 22 Dec 2010 05:21:50 GMT

I would say giving feedback on an write-up is more like doing a peer-review. When we review code, we try to not use words like "you" or "me" or even the name of the developer. We always say and write "the code...". This is a conscious effort on the part of the reviewer and does help a lot in keeping personal/emotional effects at bay.Here's what can be done:There can be a feedback center (or a small checkbox at the bottom of the editor, near the "save/post" buttons) where users can directly reference the particular article or piece of information that one finds to be incorrect and add their comments. A discreet Email can be sent out to the originator of the article, who can then take the corrective action while a visual indicator set on the piece indicates pending changes to all new visitors.No names disclosed, no emotional angle attached and hence, no harm done.At all costs, everyone who reads a write-up should keep in mind that the poster has spent some time and energy to research and share something with the world. That is worth appreciating, and some minor errors (unless technically incorrect) should be ignored.

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

lenne_dk — Wed, 22 Dec 2010 02:32:03 GMT

[quote]Most true professionals due a good job of self-screening,[/quote]Not here, it seems :-)A correction is due, if you do not mind...

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

TravisDBA — Tue, 21 Dec 2010 23:41:30 GMT

No one ever gets it 100% right every single time they post on on a forum to my knowledage anyway. That is why we call them FORUMS. They are a meeting place for debate and discussion. They don't claim to be factual sources like encyclopedias, MSDN, or BOL (and even those have known to be wrong in the past as well). Most people here can put up with the occasional error you might see on a forum post (or even an article or BLOG) versus the overwhelming accurate and very helpful information these forums and this site do provide. It's not that big of deal in the big picture IMHO. :-D

RE: Calling Out Bad Advice

Elliott Whitlow — Tue, 21 Dec 2010 21:52:56 GMT

I tend to like to use the "I believe you are mistaken" route, and here is a URL clearing it up?I also have to agree that every post and every article and every blog post puts your skills on display. I know that for me there was a certain level of angst when I first submitted my articles for publication here.I've been doing this for a long time and many things are not right vs. wrong but style. But I too have seen outright wrong advice and it needs to be combatted.CEWI

Calling Out Bad Advice

Tim Mitchell — Tue, 21 Dec 2010 21:23:46 GMT

Comments posted to this topic are about the item [B]Calling Out Bad Advice[/B]